[QuickTidal]

D, on 02 October 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

Typical Torontonian thinking Toronto = Ontario = Canada

LOL, guilty as charged!

D, on 02 October 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 02 October 2018 - 05:29 PM, said:

You can't separate the voters from the party and its leaders. Sorry. I don't care what is enacted successfully off the platforms and rhetoric and what isn't...if the base if voting for you, they have a reason, and if you aren't giving them what they want, they won't vote for you.

Sure I can.

And by your argument, the very moment the Green Party folds the NDP is now a far-left hippie Marxist party simply because the most-left voters have no one more left to vote for anymore?

We have but the parties that we have. There is no changing that. If the parties NEED to change in any way (Vis a vis the voters mentalities shift or abandon the existing platforms), you get the Progressive Conservatives shifting (merging) in 2003 to the new PC party with a righter leaning mandate because voters leaned more hat way.

The two inform one another. You can quibble about the variables, and the numbers on specific items...but the parties act and sway with the voters.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 02 October 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

...
We have but the parties that we have. There is no changing that. ...

Over in Quebec the CAQ just proved you can create a new party and move to power in a relatively short time. Even more astounding was that it formed out of shattered separatiste and disgruntled federalist elements and actually held together.

[Anomander]

I somewhat disagree, QT, that you can't separate the voters from the party (especially when it comes to conservatives). There are two issues at play here:

1. It's easy to point to the most virulent, hateful elements of the Conservative party and consider that to be the party as a whole. This is only true because a few individuals (namely Harper and Peter MacKay) merged 2 very different fractions of conservatives to present a united front. It's too big of an umbrella for such varied beliefs and results in the loudmouths being heard (usually Reformers) while those with traditionally palatable conservative views tend to be quieter and more reserved. Granted I agree it would be nice if the latter would step up to the plate more often to curb the radicals.

2. You being in Ontario definitely colours this topic and I've found conservatives to vary wildly depending on region. In the Atlantic provinces many folks are progressive PC types and don't hold with much of the ideology Harper, Ford and the like put out (there are DEFINITELY exceptions to this but I'm speaking to my experiences here). It's why all four Atlantic provinces rejected Harper in every riding in the last national election. Taking a look out West you have the old Reform party and the Wildrose folk in Alberta. Hell even Quebec bucks the norm with Maxime Bernier's new party taking off. When I lived in Ontario for a year (good ol' Perth County!) it was shocking just how hateful those on the political right were behaving and how it was viewed as the norm. It made me wonder how much of an influence was seeping across the border nearby to be honest.

I shouldn't have written this at work as I feel the stop and go writing hurt the point I was trying to make. Suffice to say, it's very easy to blanket hate the conservative party but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Much like we have numerous parties aligned with Left leaning ideals, it will get better once this con of a unified party finally falls apart.

For reference I do not, nor have I ever, voted Conservative. I identify primarily as a Liberal with many beliefs that could be ascribed to the NDP or Greens. I don't vote for either of the latter referenced parties because both are complete shit shows with no chance of effectively governing. I will revisit my thoughts on each once (1) Elizabeth May realizes she's holding her party back and resigns as leader, and (2) the NDP has a non-problematic leader who actually has a seat in parliament. I won't say I'm super happy about a number of moves made by the Liberals (although I do support the pipeline which has been interesting as an environmentalist to say the least) but there are literally zero alternatives that could do better at this point. If the opposition weren't constantly screwing themselves over Trudeau wouldn't have another shot at a majority government in the next election but here we are.

[QuickTidal]

Anomander, on 02 October 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

I somewhat disagree, QT, that you can't separate the voters from the party (especially when it comes to conservatives). There are two issues at play here:

1. It's easy to point to the most virulent, hateful elements of the Conservative party and consider that to be the party as a whole. This is only true because a few individuals (namely Harper and Peter MacKay) merged 2 very different fractions of conservatives to present a united front. It's too big of an umbrella for such varied beliefs and results in the loudmouths being heard (usually Reformers) while those with traditionally palatable conservative views tend to be quieter and more reserved. Granted I agree it would be nice if the latter would step up to the plate more often to curb the radicals.

2. You being in Ontario definitely colours this topic and I've found conservatives to vary wildly depending on region. In the Atlantic provinces many folks are progressive PC types and don't hold with much of the ideology Harper, Ford and the like put out (there are DEFINITELY exceptions to this but I'm speaking to my experiences here). It's why all four Atlantic provinces rejected Harper in every riding in the last national election. Taking a look out West you have the old Reform party and the Wildrose folk in Alberta. Hell even Quebec bucks the norm with Maxime Bernier's new party taking off. When I lived in Ontario for a year (good ol' Perth County!) it was shocking just how hateful those on the political right were behaving and how it was viewed as the norm. It made me wonder how much of an influence was seeping across the border nearby to be honest.

I shouldn't have written this at work as I feel the stop and go writing hurt the point I was trying to make. Suffice to say, it's very easy to blanket hate the conservative party but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Much like we have numerous parties aligned with Left leaning ideals, it will get better once this con of a unified party finally falls apart.

For reference I do not, nor have I ever, voted Conservative. I identify primarily as a Liberal with many beliefs that could be ascribed to the NDP or Greens. I don't vote for either of the latter referenced parties because both are complete shit shows with no chance of effectively governing. I will revisit my thoughts on each once (1) Elizabeth May realizes she's holding her party back and resigns as leader, and (2) the NDP has a non-problematic leader who actually has a seat in parliament. I won't say I'm super happy about a number of moves made by the Liberals (although I do support the pipeline which has been interesting as an environmentalist to say the least) but there are literally zero alternatives that could do better at this point. If the opposition weren't constantly screwing themselves over Trudeau wouldn't have another shot at a majority government in the next election but here we are.

Yeah, I can see that POV. I'm definitely coloured by living in Ontario.

[Gintokian]

I'm not a conservative but I think some of the things I've read here today are absolutely ludicrous. Maybe I misread things but it seems the consensus from a few is that all/most conservative voters are redneck, sexist, loudmouth bigots and I think that's absolutely ridiculous. I refuse to believe that roughly one third of our population are like that, when all of the conservatives I know personally are not even close.
I don't believe for one second you can generalize a whole population based on the loudest people, it's like saying all muslims are terrorists because of 911 or all Christians are judgemental assholes because of Westbro Baptist, it doesn't work. I get it that Dougie Ford is a piece of shit asshole but I believe he was mostly voted in because of hatred for Wynne not because everyone agreed with him.
I know that because the conservatives I know are great people doesn't mean all of them are, there's assholes and good people in every party and it's incredibly naive to think that one party is all dicks where another is great.

Also I feel that things like that (true or not) about someone's party is the worst way to discuss politics. When people feel insulted they get defensive and stop listening to what you're saying and dig in on their own side, which is why I feel that people get so entrenched in their parties rather than always considering what's really the best.
If I said the malazan books are utter shit for pussies and anomander rake's a bitch I guarantee you all would get angry and defend it, you definitely wouldn't consider thoughtfully if anomander really is a bitch or not.
I'm not saying not to challenge others on the issues, but do it in a way that encourages discussion and doesn't lead to people getting angry or defensive.
In QTs case maybe your family isn't responding to you calling them out is because of the way you're doing it, people have a lot of pride and don't like to be talked down to.

Last thing, just because you can list a bunch of mistakes the conservatives made doesn't mean the other parties are any better, I'm sure I could find just as many fuckups from the liberal government (and let's not forget what happened when the NDP controlled Ontario) so I really don't think it's fair to call people out for voting on something when the other sides done shit too.

[worry]

Seems normal to me to treat people who align themselves with passionate bigots, for whatever ulterior motives, with at least some degree of similarity to how you'd treat those passionate bigots. In government, you fund and/or legislate for the principles you support, and defund and/or legislate against the principles you oppose. Seems like a pretty straightforward test for Do Unto Others...and conservatives -- of every stripe -- fail that test.


If the vague, ignorant, economically-clouded xenophobia of a friend or acquaintance you like leads to the same white nationalist legislative ends that an extremist is seeking, what value is your distinguishing between them? Very little to the refugee who just got locked out. It lubricates your social situation, I guess, which can have some value. But this acquaintance made a knowing (enough) decision to end human lives for ostensibly economic reasons, likely very slim ones (e.g. a postage stamp's difference in annual taxation). Probably they love their spouse and kids, and would help a stranger jump their car battery in a parking lot, all that good stuff. And I'm not saying you have to discount that, or stop being friends, or cut off every conservative in your family...just don't pretend political alignments don't mean something very particular, or that the political leanings and votes of 'moderate' conservatives don't mean life and death (and let's face it, usually death) for thousands of people.

To quote a political writer from Texas I admire, Chris Hooks: "That’s what politics is — the way we distribute pain. It’s not a sport or a fraternity or a game. It’s how we determine who gets medication and who dies young, who learns in a class of twenty kids and who learns in a class of thirty, whose school has a counselor that’s trained to look for signs of sexual abuse and who doesn’t." People's insistence on pretending it's not exactly that, or glossing over it like a far distant peculiarity of life, is a more toxic political correctness than you'll find on any college campus.

[QuickTidal]

Gintokian, on 02 October 2018 - 09:04 PM, said:

I'm not a conservative but I think some of the things I've read here today are absolutely ludicrous. Maybe I misread things but it seems the consensus from a few is that all/most conservative voters are redneck, sexist, loudmouth bigots and I think that's absolutely ridiculous. I refuse to believe that roughly one third of our population are like that, when all of the conservatives I know personally are not even close.

If people are voting for conservative policies...then I’m sorry, but most of the time in the 21st century, they are voting for things that fall into that line whether they support the entire platform or not. It comes with the territory. Are they universally assholes? No. But they don’t get to wash their hands clean of the shittier policies that get followed/enacted either.

Gintokian, on 02 October 2018 - 09:04 PM, said:

I don't believe for one second you can generalize a whole population based on the loudest people, it's like saying all muslims are terrorists because of 911 or all Christians are judgemental assholes because of Westbro Baptist, it doesn't work.

I didn’t. I simply, said that if you are voting conservative in 2018, whatever your reasons, you are in part supporting drives for various oppressive tendencies. You have to own that, or don’t vote for that party.

Gintokian, on 02 October 2018 - 09:04 PM, said:

I get it that Dougie Ford is a piece of shit asshole but I believe he was mostly voted in because of hatred for Wynne not because everyone agreed with him.

This is not only not an excuse...it’s an absolutely TERRIBLE way to go about electing leaders. It’s especially bad when the only reason he got the leadership was because a whole slew of PC party members thought Trump was a good example. Give the leadership to the populist, loudmouth asshole. The provincial election should have been a referendum on that stupid as shit strategy...but it wasn’t...a whole slew of conservative voters decided that Doug was a good option. He’s not.

Gintokian, on 02 October 2018 - 09:04 PM, said:

I know that because the conservatives I know are great people doesn't mean all of them are, there's assholes and good people in every party

You think that I hate my family for being conservative? I don’t. I love my family. They are generally good people...but I will hold their noses to the shit for voting in conservative assholes who pull nefarious shit in the electorates name if that comes up.

Gintokian, on 02 October 2018 - 09:04 PM, said:

I'm not saying not to challenge others on the issues, but do it in a way that encourages discussion and doesn't lead to people getting angry or defensive.

I wish I could. It’s not possible. Every single conservative voter I’ve ever met and talked to has shut me down loudly if I try to rationally discuss policy...the ones I know on Facebook repost shit from racist alt-right sites like Ontario Proud. I actively have to snooze my sister on FB to avoid her posting bullshit.

Gintokian, on 02 October 2018 - 09:04 PM, said:

In QTs case maybe your family isn't responding to you calling them out is because of the way you're doing it, people have a lot of pride and don't like to be talked down to.

Oh. Perhaps I was not clear. I have never called them out. Any time we’ve discussed politics in the past, THEY have brought it up and I’ve simply defended liberal points and on rarer occasions I’ve “held their noses” as it were about mor terrible con policies. After Trudeau was elected and all I said at the dinner table once was “Oh, I like Trudeau.” In response to my sister saying something mildly distasteful about him... And my aunt, uncle, sister, brother in law, mother and stepfather ALL laid into me about how I’m a bleeding heart liberal with blinders on. It was...unpleasant. So no. I don’t call them out. But talking to them even in the most calm and banal way...doesn’t work. I get regurgitated Ford like talking points. My sister ADORED Mike Harris.

Gintokian, on 02 October 2018 - 09:04 PM, said:

Last thing, just because you can list a bunch of mistakes the conservatives made doesn't mean the other parties are any better, I'm sure I could find just as many fuckups from the liberal government (and let's not forget what happened when the NDP controlled Ontario) so I really don't think it's fair to call people out for voting on something when the other sides done shit too.

I’m not sure the liberals have been routinely denounced as sexist, racist, anti-environment as much as the Cons are. It’s a party of old white men and always has been. And they no longer can fall back on the “we are the fiscally conservative ones!” As a talking point...because they now understand that you can’t run things without a deficit...they just chose in the last election to not cost anything out so none of their voters would see they will spend as much as the liberal govt theyso bemoan.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 03 October 2018 - 12:52 AM

[Abyss]

To be clear Gin, I in no way think all Conservative party members, supporters, or voters, are xenophobic misogynist bigots. I know and work with enough of them to know better.
I do, however, believe that the vast majority of xenophobic misogynist bigots in Canada, who bother with politics at all, support the party, and voted for them.

[Gintokian]

QT I did not say you hated your family, and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying that and Abyss I must have misunderstood.

I agree that people shouldn't ignore the shittier policies or wash their hands of them but I don't think we can ignore the fact that all of the parties have their own shitty policies. Especially with this last election. I agree it's bad to vote Doug in to get rid of Wynne but isn't it the same thing to vote Wynne so Doug doesn't get in? Either way you're not voting for the right reasons. And she is almost as bad as Ford, just in different ways. Horwath would have been a nightmare as well. I feel that this election was different, people were just trying to make the best of a shitty situation, there was no clear stand out, moral, leader in this one and I believe people just had to make a choice. Sure Ford was probably not the right one but I don't think people should be labeled or judged too harshly because of it. I think this election was a special case.

I get that when people vote for someone they are essentially supporting that person's beliefs and policies but in no way are all conservative leaders like Ford. There a plenty of decent ones and their supporters shouldn't be judged for his mistakes. For example, when I was considering who to vote for in this election a few people on this forum said to look at my local candidates and base my vote on them.

My main point here is not to argue that the conservative party is fantastic or anything, I'm just saying I don't like it when a group of people are judged and labelled for one decision in a shitty situation. Sure, maybe all of the redneck bigots vote conservative but that doesn't mean the rest of the voters should be lumped in with them. We're not to judge others on race, religion, gender identity, etc. but its fine to judge someone on their political beliefs? That just seems twisted to me.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 03 October 2018 - 02:33 AM, said:

To be clear Gin, I in no way think all Conservative party members, supporters, or voters, are xenophobic misogynist bigots. I know and work with enough of them to know better.
I do, however, believe that the vast majority of xenophobic misogynist bigots in Canada, who bother with politics at all, support the party, and voted for them.

Well of course, because who else are they going to vote for? The Animal Protection Alliance Party?

Once you're farther "right" than the Cons, they'll always be the closest major party to you, even if they're not very close. Likewise, once you're farther "left" than the Greens, they'll always be the closest major party to you, even if they're not very close (or discounting the Greens as 'major', the NDP).

There are Canadians who really want to criminalize abortion, and some of them vote. The Conservatives don't want to criminalize abortion, and they probably never will (some individual politicians within the party do, but the party as a whole has no interest in it), but they're the closest to wanting it so the voter who wants that is going to vote for them... even though it'll never happen, because the Cons aren't actually *that* far right (nor are the NDP that far left).

worry, on 03 October 2018 - 12:18 AM, said:

Seems normal to me to treat people who align themselves with passionate bigots, for whatever ulterior motives, with at least some degree of similarity to how you'd treat those passionate bigots. In government, you fund and/or legislate for the principles you support, and defund and/or legislate against the principles you oppose. Seems like a pretty straightforward test for Do Unto Others...and conservatives -- of every stripe -- fail that test.

Tossing every single conservative -- of every stripe -- in the world into such a bin so blase... is that, too, not passionate bigotry?

[QuickTidal]

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

QT I did not say you hated your family, and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying that and Abyss I must have misunderstood.

It just seemed you were inclined to believe that because we came to loggerheads on politics that I don't get along with my family otherwise. I do. Thanks for the clarification though!

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

I agree that people shouldn't ignore the shittier policies or wash their hands of them but I don't think we can ignore the fact that all of the parties have their own shitty policies. Especially with this last election.

Again, I don't think any of the Liberal or NDP platforms were in any way racist, traditionalist, or anti-environment. So whatever shitty policies that the Liberals or NDP would offer up don't seem to be in the same realm to me.

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

I agree it's bad to vote Doug in to get rid of Wynne but isn't it the same thing to vote Wynne so Doug doesn't get in?

Wynne burned her own bridges by staying as leader way to long, and backing off on her early gusto to become a pretty milquetoast premier who got worse as she stayed in office...but between her and Ford...it was STILL an easy choice. That said, I voted for NDP/Horwath because the NDP platform (eeking out the Liberal one by a few minor notches) was the one I most agreed with. And both the Liberals AND NDPO spoke about the biggest things to me as a voter....daycare. And both offered options that are better than what we have now. The PC's offered no platform, and thinking that Ford and his cronies will EVER look at daycare costs in Ontario is a joke. Buck-a-beer tho for a weekend from three minor breweries, and save a hay penny in gas!

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Either way you're not voting for the right reasons.

I beg to differ. I voted NDP (I've voted Liberal my entire life) because their platform was the one that spoke to me best. The PC's didn't really offer a platform. I voted for the party that was most likely to get me and my family to where we need to be. As it stands with the PC's in charge, I can see a continuous 4 years of losing the things we've gained (see a 2017 inclusive sex ed platform, and a well needed carbon tax, a raised minimum wage, ect.) instead.

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

And she is almost as bad as Ford, just in different ways.

She's not. She has her own issues...but none of those are on the Doug Ford level...hell they re not in the same ballpark playing the same sport.

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Horwath would have been a nightmare as well.

I see. Why? And I'd like you to explain it without bringing up the ghost of Bob Rae's NDP of the early 1990's, because it's not applicable to the modern NDP party in any way, shape, or form.

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

I feel that this election was different, people were just trying to make the best of a shitty situation, there was no clear stand out, moral, leader in this one and I believe people just had to make a choice. Sure Ford was probably not the right one but I don't think people should be labeled or judged too harshly because of it. I think this election was a special case.

Disagree. Ford's PC's were not an option t any sane individual. He had no platform, and what he did offer up in the end wasn't costed out in any way (still isn't). The people who voted for him...voted without any information available. At least the Liberals and NDP offered platforms from the get-go with costing. The guy who basically fibbed/delayed his way through he election....is not a choice.

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

I get that when people vote for someone they are essentially supporting that person's beliefs and policies but in no way are all conservative leaders like Ford.

But they made him leader. That's on them. 100%.

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

There a plenty of decent ones and their supporters shouldn't be judged for his mistakes.

Every single PC representative in the Legislature since he was elected have stood behind his asinine plans and ideas 100%. Every last one of them is a coward who needs to be held co-respnsible. No one is keeping him in check. If your local leaders don't support him...then that's fine...but it's still not better. Yeah, your local person may be a great Conservative leader...but they still stand under the banner of a party doing shitty things, and backing up a leader who does even shittier things...and no one says boo. That's cowardice.

Gintokian, on 03 October 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

My main point here is not to argue that the conservative party is fantastic or anything, I'm just saying I don't like it when a group of people are judged and labelled for one decision in a shitty situation. Sure, maybe all of the redneck bigots vote conservative but that doesn't mean the rest of the voters should be lumped in with them. We're not to judge others on race, religion, gender identity, etc. but its fine to judge someone on their political beliefs? That just seems twisted to me.

As Abyss said. I'm not labelling every single conservative voter as those things. I'm saying "If you voted for the PC's, you've accepted your part in the shitty things they do" even if you don't support those shitty things. There can be n two ways about it.

I voted for Trudeau...and now I have to own that he is trying like hell for that pipeline (even though he grew up alongside me in the Environment Conscious 90's), and that he promised electoral reform which never materialized. I voted for him, but I will fully call out those things, and admit how bad they are in hindsight.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 03 October 2018 - 03:14 PM

[worry]

Studies about the brain aside, Conservatism isn't an intrinsic personal feature, it's a philosophy (more pertinently, a collection of public policies) that is adopted and endorsed. There's no passionate bigotry involved because I'm dealing with the philosophy, and it's not exactly secret: in a world of plenty, conservative philosophy requires pretending there still need to be 'winners' and 'losers,' and that life and death competition is a feature, not a bug. Societies, economies should and must exact pain, suffering, death on the bottom of the hierarchy while those above have earned their way out of it, and that's the correct structure for civilization. I assume I don't need to get into socially conservative policy intersects with the rest. Suffice to say, in sum, I already know conservative philosophy's goals are disgusting, let alone their means. I already know that policies that enact that philosophy are inhumane and I want nothing to do with them. So when it comes to the people who align themselves with that philosophy, I don't need to pretend they fit one mold, to flatten them into caricatures. I don't pretend I know everything about them, or assume that they're necessarily cruel people within their own circles. The point is not pretending.


When it comes to people you love or like who happen to be politically conservative, you face some choices. Perhaps in the past, people decided consciously or unconsciously that they weren't choices, but I don't think we have that indulgence. And I'm not saying they're easy, and I'm not saying there's only one real choice in the end. But yah, sometimes it is worth ostracizing the conservatives in your life. Sometimes it's necessary. In the same way you'd do so to a family member who earnestly expressed any other heinous belief or behavior. Short of that, if I had to sum it up, I would just say that the one choice people make that they should stop making -- because it genuinely does more harm than good -- is pretending political differences are mere 'differences of opinion'. That's the politically correct, reality-eliding convenience that needs to go. These aren't personal tastes in food or music, they're beliefs about how people should be treated, and they have actual consequences for those people. I think it's right to be passionate about that, but more importantly, I think it's necessary to be frank about that, even with people you like or love.

[D'rek]

I've got a friend who's in the military. Every election cycle (yeah, like, all 2 that we've been old enough to vote in... shush you) we wind up talking about who we're going to vote for. And everytime she says she's voting Conservative; she says it's in her best interest because the Liberals have mismanaged the military and she fears having her wages and career frozen again if they won, and some similar spiel for the NDP.

Every time, I tell her: "I understand that, and you're probably right on that one issue... but that's not nearly enough to make up for the other effects of a Conservative win! Your vote is going to criminalize abortion, deport tens of thousands of desperate illegal residents, cease all of our immigration, scrap all of our gun registry programs, defund our education system, and remove public healthcare!" But she just won't listen.

...

...

except no, it's not like that at all. It's more like I tell her: "I understand that, and you're probably right on that one issue... but that's not nearly enough to make up for a slower greenhouse gas reduction, lowered public servant transparency, poopier national census, and small changes to the tax code that benefit upper-middle-class more than they do lower-middle-class!" (She's still wrong, though)


Look, Worry, I (kiiiinda) get what you're saying and all, but Canada isn't the USA, ok?

And if you truly hold this sort of absolutist purview:

worry, on 03 October 2018 - 08:03 PM, said:

So when it comes to the people who align themselves with that philosophy, I don't need to pretend they fit one mold, to flatten them into caricatures. I don't pretend I know everything about them, or assume that they're necessarily cruel people within their own circles. The point is not pretending.

...then I'm sorry but I don't think you can ever understand us or our politics.

[Gintokian]

I agree with D'rek in that Canadian and American politics are very different, Our conservatives and your Republicans are not interchangeable. The conservative federal government was in power for a long time and things like gay marriage, abortion were mostly a non-issue for them, unlike most American republicans.

And QT again I definitely didn't mean to imply that you didn't get along with your family, I just meant on this one issue. Also when I said "you're voting for the wrong reasons" I didn't mean you specifically, but more the idea that voting for Ford to get rid of Wynne, or voting for Wynne to get rid of Ford is not a good reason to vote that way. I'm writing this on the train, I may need to work on the way my writing's coming across here.

I do agree that people should own up to the shit that the politicians they voted in have done, I have no problems with that.
My initial issue here was it sounded like people were insinuating that all conservatives were bigots, sexist, etc. which I took issue with, and I know you've said you're not like that.
As for the other stuff, I'm just not sure we're going to agree on a bunch of things but that's fine.

Im at my train stop now but quickly for the NDP my issue was the ridiculous spending planned, like forgiving all student loans (of which I'm still paying mine so it would benefit me) and some of her other policies that would increase taxes like crazy and put ontario into huge debt.
Free dental care would be sweet though...

[worry]

I know Canada isn't the US, and I don't generally post in this thread for that reason...what I am saying, fairly generally it's true, is that there is a logical conclusion to conservative policy, and without honesty, even Canada isn't safeguarded from it. I don't think that's particularly outrageous to point out, though I admit it's plausible Canada has stronger safeguards than the US, and that it might also take less extreme circumstances to have a wake up call.

Regarding absolutism though, I don't know how you read the part of my post you quoted, but I thought I was being distinctly and deliberately not absolutist. That was the whole point of those couple sentences. Maybe it reads different than it does in my head.

[rant]

D, on 02 October 2018 - 03:36 AM, said:

CAQ gets a majority in Quebec. Interesting.

Abyss, on 02 October 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

Over in Quebec the CAQ just proved you can create a new party and move to power in a relatively short time. Even more astounding was that it formed out of shattered separatiste and disgruntled federalist elements and actually held together.

I think this suggests that Quebec politics no longer run on the axis of sovereignty and has shifted to a more traditional left---right divide. Thoughts?

Nevyn, on 02 October 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

Each party is going to have their own voices somewhere else on the spectrum than the party in general, but governance in Canada is very top down. So I'd evaluate where the parties are based on how they govern

It is a well established adage in Canadian politics that the liberals campaign from the left, the conservatives campaign from the right, and both govern from the centre. The NDP just doesn't govern lol.

[Gintokian]

Wow new Quebec government will now fire public servants for wearing religious symbols. Unbelievably fucked up in my opinion. So Muslims can't wear hijabs and Jews can't wear Kippahs.


From an article on this found here https://www.thestar....icials-say.html
""Those people will be free to relocate to another job that will not be in an authority situation," she said. "It will be up to them at that point to make the necessary choice."
Asked what happens to people who do not want to change jobs and refuse to remove their religious symbols, she said they would be "making the choice to no longer occupy the post if they want to keep wearing religious symbols."

Whatever happened to freedom of religion? I wonder what their thoughts are on What Would Jesus Do bracelets? If someone has a cross tattoo do they need to get it lasered off? Ridiculous.

This post has been edited by Gintokian: 04 October 2018 - 12:58 PM

[Abyss]

Gintokian, on 04 October 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

Wow new Quebec government will now fire public servants for wearing religious symbols. Unbelievably fucked up in my opinion. So Muslims can't wear hijabs and Jews can't wear Kippahs.


From an article on this found here https://www.thestar....icials-say.html
""Those people will be free to relocate to another job that will not be in an authority situation," she said. "It will be up to them at that point to make the necessary choice."
Asked what happens to people who do not want to change jobs and refuse to remove their religious symbols, she said they would be "making the choice to no longer occupy the post if they want to keep wearing religious symbols."

Whatever happened to freedom of religion? I wonder what their thoughts are on What Would Jesus Do bracelets? If someone has a cross tattoo do they need to get it lasered off? Ridiculous.

I'll be very surprised if this - in whatever form it finally takes, because right now it's just election promise rhetoric - survives a Human Rights Act / Charter of RIghts and Freedoms challenge.

[Nevyn]

Abyss, on 04 October 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Gintokian, on 04 October 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

Wow new Quebec government will now fire public servants for wearing religious symbols. Unbelievably fucked up in my opinion. So Muslims can't wear hijabs and Jews can't wear Kippahs.


From an article on this found here https://www.thestar....icials-say.html
""Those people will be free to relocate to another job that will not be in an authority situation," she said. "It will be up to them at that point to make the necessary choice."
Asked what happens to people who do not want to change jobs and refuse to remove their religious symbols, she said they would be "making the choice to no longer occupy the post if they want to keep wearing religious symbols."

Whatever happened to freedom of religion? I wonder what their thoughts are on What Would Jesus Do bracelets? If someone has a cross tattoo do they need to get it lasered off? Ridiculous.

I'll be very surprised if this - in whatever form it finally takes, because right now it's just election promise rhetoric - survives a Human Rights Act / Charter of RIghts and Freedoms challenge.

The headline yesterday was that the incoming premier planned to use the notwithstanding clause.

They know it won't pass the charter.

[Abyss]

Nevyn, on 04 October 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

Abyss, on 04 October 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Gintokian, on 04 October 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

Wow new Quebec government will now fire public servants for wearing religious symbols. Unbelievably fucked up in my opinion. So Muslims can't wear hijabs and Jews can't wear Kippahs.


From an article on this found here https://www.thestar....icials-say.html
""Those people will be free to relocate to another job that will not be in an authority situation," she said. "It will be up to them at that point to make the necessary choice."
Asked what happens to people who do not want to change jobs and refuse to remove their religious symbols, she said they would be "making the choice to no longer occupy the post if they want to keep wearing religious symbols."

Whatever happened to freedom of religion? I wonder what their thoughts are on What Would Jesus Do bracelets? If someone has a cross tattoo do they need to get it lasered off? Ridiculous.

I'll be very surprised if this - in whatever form it finally takes, because right now it's just election promise rhetoric - survives a Human Rights Act / Charter of RIghts and Freedoms challenge.

The headline yesterday was that the incoming premier planned to use the notwithstanding clause.

They know it won't pass the charter.

Sure, to get it made into law initially. TNC is all the rage lately... all the cool provincial kids are doing it.

But at the inevitable Court proceeding where the first few employees (or decent odds on a class action) actually affected by it throw down with their pro bono high profile crusader lawyers and a Court (or three) that could care less about this stupidity...