[D'rek]

rant, on 21 September 2018 - 02:28 AM, said:

Canadas an order of magnitude smaller RE: population (35 vs. 350 million), on a landmass that is only slightly ( is 100,000km2 slight? lol) bigger. Not to mention like 13 million ( almost half our pop.) Canadians live in Southern Ontario. I dunno if our demographics allow for the level of neighborhood self-selection you describe. Well.... I guess if they do, its only in Toronto really lol.


I think one of the things I don't really grasp about urbanite arguments for city living ( as touched on in your post, if I'm putting words in your mouth I apologize) is the presumption of monolithic worldviews/ belief systems in rural (and suburban I guess) areas. I grew up in rural NB. Sure, ALOT of the people I know are deeply conservative.....but the other half of the people I grew up with are really liberal. ((Never forget: Canadian medicare was born of Saskatchewan farmers)

Youre right that we (especially me, as I grew up pre-internet) were not physically exposed to much diversity.....but true ignorance of diversity (i.e. not willful ignorance) is not a vice so long as it is mitigated by compassion, empathy and humanity. We live in an era with the internet (obvs lol).....rural farmers can and do ( I've sat on their couches with them as it happened) pull up 'Dear White People' on Netflix and go huh--good points, or look on twitter at #metoo and #blacklivesmatter, etc. and think......damn, we've got to help these people!

Don't get me wrong. There is absolutely systemic discrimination/marginalization and outright racism in rural areas just like in there is in urban areas, and there are assholes in rural areas for sure (google Malcolm Ross [Moncton]--that is the anti-semitism, racism, and homphobia my [white/christianish/cis/hetero-normative] friends and I were arguing against [ all the Ross kids were 'ist AF] at the tender ages of 10 through 18), but there are just as many (if not more?) racist pricks in cities isn't there? And they use their daily exposures to diversity as justification for being pricks.

If its possible to detach physical (as opposed to empathic, emotional, electronic, informational, etc.) exposure to diversity from the moral imperative to not treat people like shit... Whats left for city living? Food seems a recurrent theme. I eat out.....once a month.....and thats not because there are no options or whatever. I would just rather spend $8 making my meal than $35 buying it. I recognize I'm a miser though LOL.

Keep in mind I live in a city.

Also I was celebrating a promotion tnt and got a bit drunk, so apologies for incoherence.

I think it's far more a presumption of suburban monolithic worldview than of rural... or at least it should be. Heck, take a look at the ontario election results map from earlier this year - both the downtown city-centres and the huge swathe of rural northern ontario (except Kenora and the Sault... again... sigh) were left/centre-leaning, it was predominantly the city suburbs that elected Monsieur Ford.

[rant]

D, on 22 September 2018 - 06:16 PM, said:

rant, on 21 September 2018 - 02:28 AM, said:

Canadas an order of magnitude smaller RE: population (35 vs. 350 million), on a landmass that is only slightly ( is 100,000km2 slight? lol) bigger. Not to mention like 13 million ( almost half our pop.) Canadians live in Southern Ontario. I dunno if our demographics allow for the level of neighborhood self-selection you describe. Well.... I guess if they do, its only in Toronto really lol.


I think one of the things I don't really grasp about urbanite arguments for city living ( as touched on in your post, if I'm putting words in your mouth I apologize) is the presumption of monolithic worldviews/ belief systems in rural (and suburban I guess) areas. I grew up in rural NB. Sure, ALOT of the people I know are deeply conservative.....but the other half of the people I grew up with are really liberal. ((Never forget: Canadian medicare was born of Saskatchewan farmers)

Youre right that we (especially me, as I grew up pre-internet) were not physically exposed to much diversity.....but true ignorance of diversity (i.e. not willful ignorance) is not a vice so long as it is mitigated by compassion, empathy and humanity. We live in an era with the internet (obvs lol).....rural farmers can and do ( I've sat on their couches with them as it happened) pull up 'Dear White People' on Netflix and go huh--good points, or look on twitter at #metoo and #blacklivesmatter, etc. and think......damn, we've got to help these people!

Don't get me wrong. There is absolutely systemic discrimination/marginalization and outright racism in rural areas just like in there is in urban areas, and there are assholes in rural areas for sure (google Malcolm Ross [Moncton]--that is the anti-semitism, racism, and homphobia my [white/christianish/cis/hetero-normative] friends and I were arguing against [ all the Ross kids were 'ist AF] at the tender ages of 10 through 18), but there are just as many (if not more?) racist pricks in cities isn't there? And they use their daily exposures to diversity as justification for being pricks.

If its possible to detach physical (as opposed to empathic, emotional, electronic, informational, etc.) exposure to diversity from the moral imperative to not treat people like shit... Whats left for city living? Food seems a recurrent theme. I eat out.....once a month.....and thats not because there are no options or whatever. I would just rather spend $8 making my meal than $35 buying it. I recognize I'm a miser though LOL.

Keep in mind I live in a city.

Also I was celebrating a promotion tnt and got a bit drunk, so apologies for incoherence.

I think it's far more a presumption of suburban monolithic worldview than of rural... or at least it should be. Heck, take a look at the ontario election results map from earlier this year - both the downtown city-centres and the huge swathe of rural northern ontario (except Kenora and the Sault... again... sigh) were left/centre-leaning, it was predominantly the city suburbs that elected Monsieur Ford.

So first, re-reading my previous post I've noticed an interesting contradiction--While our national population IS technically spread across a very large area.....it is in fact quite densely concentrated within Southern Ontario....so maybe the assertion I was making above is incorrect?


I think what makes me bristle is taking election results, and using them to describe the political leanings of an area...and ultimately the political (and therefore moral) values of any resident within that area.

We colour in the different ridings as blue, red, etc after an MLA is elected FPTP, which uses total # of votes of the denominator for the comparison rather than total population of riding. So, right off...colouring a suburban riding blue isn't actually representative of that ridings political leanings, but rather for the political leanings of those who voted. However, even thats not accurate. That blue is representative of the plurality of voters in that area. Realistically, in all of those maps....every riding should be grey for: didn't care enough to vote.

If a suburban riding vote split was 29% blue, 28% orange, 25% red, 10% green, 6% marxist party...........is it accurate to view it as a conservative monolyth? What of the 69 % of voters who didnt vote blue? Or the 60 % of residents who just didnt vote?
Flip those numbers so a rural or urban area has 29% orange and 28% blue....is it accurate to make a similar claim?

This post has been edited by rant: 23 September 2018 - 03:05 AM

[Mentalist]

rant, on 23 September 2018 - 03:04 AM, said:

D, on 22 September 2018 - 06:16 PM, said:

rant, on 21 September 2018 - 02:28 AM, said:

Canadas an order of magnitude smaller RE: population (35 vs. 350 million), on a landmass that is only slightly ( is 100,000km2 slight? lol) bigger. Not to mention like 13 million ( almost half our pop.) Canadians live in Southern Ontario. I dunno if our demographics allow for the level of neighborhood self-selection you describe. Well.... I guess if they do, its only in Toronto really lol.


I think one of the things I don't really grasp about urbanite arguments for city living ( as touched on in your post, if I'm putting words in your mouth I apologize) is the presumption of monolithic worldviews/ belief systems in rural (and suburban I guess) areas. I grew up in rural NB. Sure, ALOT of the people I know are deeply conservative.....but the other half of the people I grew up with are really liberal. ((Never forget: Canadian medicare was born of Saskatchewan farmers)

Youre right that we (especially me, as I grew up pre-internet) were not physically exposed to much diversity.....but true ignorance of diversity (i.e. not willful ignorance) is not a vice so long as it is mitigated by compassion, empathy and humanity. We live in an era with the internet (obvs lol).....rural farmers can and do ( I've sat on their couches with them as it happened) pull up 'Dear White People' on Netflix and go huh--good points, or look on twitter at #metoo and #blacklivesmatter, etc. and think......damn, we've got to help these people!

Don't get me wrong. There is absolutely systemic discrimination/marginalization and outright racism in rural areas just like in there is in urban areas, and there are assholes in rural areas for sure (google Malcolm Ross [Moncton]--that is the anti-semitism, racism, and homphobia my [white/christianish/cis/hetero-normative] friends and I were arguing against [ all the Ross kids were 'ist AF] at the tender ages of 10 through 18), but there are just as many (if not more?) racist pricks in cities isn't there? And they use their daily exposures to diversity as justification for being pricks.

If its possible to detach physical (as opposed to empathic, emotional, electronic, informational, etc.) exposure to diversity from the moral imperative to not treat people like shit... Whats left for city living? Food seems a recurrent theme. I eat out.....once a month.....and thats not because there are no options or whatever. I would just rather spend $8 making my meal than $35 buying it. I recognize I'm a miser though LOL.

Keep in mind I live in a city.

Also I was celebrating a promotion tnt and got a bit drunk, so apologies for incoherence.

I think it's far more a presumption of suburban monolithic worldview than of rural... or at least it should be. Heck, take a look at the ontario election results map from earlier this year - both the downtown city-centres and the huge swathe of rural northern ontario (except Kenora and the Sault... again... sigh) were left/centre-leaning, it was predominantly the city suburbs that elected Monsieur Ford.

So first, re-reading my previous post I've noticed an interesting contradiction--While our national population IS technically spread across a very large area.....it is in fact quite densely concentrated within Southern Ontario....so maybe the assertion I was making above is incorrect?


I think what makes me bristle is taking election results, and using them to describe the political leanings of an area...and ultimately the political (and therefore moral) values of any resident within that area.

We colour in the different ridings as blue, red, etc after an MLA is elected FPTP, which uses total # of votes of the denominator for the comparison rather than total population of riding. So, right off...colouring a suburban riding blue isn't actually representative of that ridings political leanings, but rather for the political leanings of those who voted. However, even thats not accurate. That blue is representative of the plurality of voters in that area. Realistically, in all of those maps....every riding should be grey for: didn't care enough to vote.

If a suburban riding vote split was 29% blue, 28% orange, 25% red, 10% green, 6% marxist party...........is it accurate to view it as a conservative monolyth? What of the 69 % of voters who didnt vote blue? Or the 60 % of residents who just didnt vote?
Flip those numbers so a rural or urban area has 29% orange and 28% blue....is it accurate to make a similar claim?

no in either case.
Which is why I really don't like FPTP. Should be PR or preferential ballot, imho.

[rant]

NB election results: 22 Tory, 21 liberals, 3 green, 3 Peoples alliance (basically cons [re: NB anglophones] really against official bilingualism) . Recounts will certainly happen....like 5 ridings decided by lt 50 votes.

Peoples Alliance policies could be the touch of death for any party courting francophone voters.....so its possible liberals (the incumbents, with 37% of the popular vote) will form government with the greens holding balance of power.

Libs/ Cons split almost perfectly [ though for some reason a deeply rural francophone riding flipped] on regional language divides.

I would hate to be the LT-Gov right now as a bunch of angry (probably anglophone [I'm anglophone, just not angry....rather relieved these results are probably the extent of populism here]) NBers wake up and realize we have a LT-Gov lol.

[rant]

rant, on 25 September 2018 - 05:41 AM, said:

NB election results: 22 Tory, 21 liberals, 3 green, 3 Peoples alliance (basically cons [re: NB anglophones] really against official bilingualism) . Recounts will certainly happen....like 5 ridings decided by lt 50 votes.

Peoples Alliance policies could be the touch of death for any party courting francophone voters.....so its possible liberals (the incumbents, with 37% of the popular vote) will form government with the greens holding balance of power.

Libs/ Cons split almost perfectly [ though for some reason a deeply rural francophone riding flipped] on regional language divides.

I would hate to be the LT-Gov right now as a bunch of angry (probably anglophone [I'm anglophone, just not angry....rather relieved these results are probably the extent of populism here]) NBers wake up and realize we have a LT-Gov lol.

Also, first minority gov since 1920.....and the first time ever there was more than 1 3rd party candidate in legislature.

David Coon, green leader.....has already said he wouldn't work with any party that "seeks to diminish or take away rights of linguistic minorities" (re: Peoples Alliance).

Okay, I'm going to bed lol.

This post has been edited by rant: 25 September 2018 - 05:49 AM

[EmperorMagus]

How likely is it that the Greens are going to push for PR as a prerequisite for supporting another party?

The BC Greens did that and that's why we're having a referendum this October. I'm hoping a similar thing can happen over there.

[rant]

EmperorMagus, on 25 September 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

How likely is it that the Greens are going to push for PR as a prerequisite for supporting another party?

The BC Greens did that and that's why we're having a referendum this October. I'm hoping a similar thing can happen over there.

I could see them pushing for it, but I kind of doubt this government will last more than a year lol.

[D'rek]

CAQ gets a majority in Quebec. Interesting.

[Brujah]

It's very odd contemplating Canadian politics. Canadians legitimately concern themselves with what's best for their people and country, at least compared to our horrid excuse for a federal system.

Are the different parties or factions in Canada very different from each other? I imagine a system where the platforms for each party are not so different.

What are the major divisive issues there?

/curious

[Gintokian]

Brujah, on 02 October 2018 - 04:48 AM, said:

It's very odd contemplating Canadian politics. Canadians legitimately concern themselves with what's best for their people and country, at least compared to our horrid excuse for a federal system.

Are the different parties or factions in Canada very different from each other? I imagine a system where the platforms for each party are not so different.

What are the major divisive issues there?

/curious

This article is a pretty good description of what our parties are like right now.

http://www.thecanada...itical-parties/

Basically the conservatives are more conservative, want lower taxes, smaller government, more "traditional" values.
The liberals are slightly more liberal, focusing on social issues (pro abortion, lgbtq rights, more immigration, etc.) and larger government and higher spending.
The NDP are more socialistic I guess, more government programs, higher taxes, environmentally focused.
And then there's the Quebecois who originally wanted Quebec to secede but I'm not sure if they still do.
The Green party's all about the environment and what not, don't really know too much about them.

Really the liberals and conservatives are not that much different, there's less of a gap than America's Republicans and Democrats. Both parties are fairly liberal.

This post has been edited by Gintokian: 02 October 2018 - 12:54 PM

[Abyss]

Gintokian, on 02 October 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

...
And then there's the Quebecois who originally wanted Quebec to secede but I'm not sure if they still do.

There is an ever shrinking segment of old school pur laine quebecois who still hang on to this, and a small but far from vanished younger segment who still think it's a good idea but cloak it in things like 'charter of values' and 'French language rights', and avoid the term separation.

Quote

The Green party's all about the environment and what not, don't really know too much about them.

They absorbed the remains of the 'Marijuana Party' and kind of became a one note joke and/or refuge for people so far left they can't live with the NDP.

Quote

Really the liberals and conservatives are not that much different, there's less of a gap than America's Republicans and Democrats. Both parties are fairly liberal.

The Cons have been the party for the far right, the negative stereotype redneck, the racist, the xenophobe, the climate-change denier, anti-LGBTetc., anti-abortion, more guns, less gov regulation of guns, etc etc. for a long time now. One might argue the Cons are somewhat 'Liberal' in some of their wider government and industry stances, but i'd say that's as far as it goes.

The Liberals are the opposite of that without going as far Left as the NDP in terms of accommodation or as intense on social spending.

[Nevyn]

Each party is going to have their own voices somewhere else on the spectrum than the party in general, but governance in Canada is very top down. So I'd evaluate where the parties are based on how they govern

And on that basis, the Liberals are in the center and have shifted on exactly where they lean as public opinion has.

The Conservatives have strong right underpinnings but tend to crowd the liberals on the center right.

The NDP are leftist with occasional populist swings to the center when they think they can break through with them (which seldom work).


More specifically, the liberals in the 70s or 80s were fairly center left and the conservatives of the day were center right. Then Canada had a debt crisis, and the liberals pivoted to more center-right, which they got to own, because the conservative party fractured and moved right without organized opposition.

That held until the electorate tired of the liberals and the conservatives consolidated. What followed was a conservative government viewed as having a quite right wing ideology, but which governed closer to the center on key voter issues. They cut back the tax base, kept the focus on moderation and getting the economy on track and the budget balanced, and it put the liberals in a bind where they really could not differentiate their platform.

In the last election ,the Liberals broke out of that paradigm by moving to the left and rejecting the 'box' the Conservatives had created where you couldn't promise much spending without creating deficits, while also taking other positions (such as legalization) where they could have a wedge against conservatives.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 02 October 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

The Cons have been the party for the far right, the negative stereotype redneck, the racist, the xenophobe, the climate-change denier, anti-LGBTetc., anti-abortion, more guns, less gov regulation of guns, etc etc. for a long time now. One might argue the Cons are somewhat 'Liberal' in some of their wider government and industry stances, but i'd say that's as far as it goes.

^^This is spot on accurate in my experience.

I say this as someone whose family (minus my dad) is filled with Conservative voters...all of whom subscribe to AT LEAST 1 or 2 of the traits Abyss mentions, regurgitate hard-right taking points as gospel, and basically act like assholes a lot of the time. They think Trudeau is a demon who is eating our democracy one nanny-hire at a time, and that Doug Ford is doing good work by tearing down old school politicians and getting shit done. My sister nearly tore my head off when I told her I voted NDP in the provincial election...and it was already bad before that when she learned I was a lifelong Liberal voter...she said "How DARE you vote for the Liberals. We are a CONSERVATIVE FAMILY!"....meanwhile I didn't have the heart to tell her my father (who used to be Conservative in the past) voted Liberal in the last Federal election, and NDP in the most recent Provincial because he's smart enough to see through the Cons bullshit.

I've not met the type of Conservative Nevyn is speaking about, as I don't think they've existed for at least 2 decades now.

Fiscal Conservatives in 2018 are a fiction they are selling past their best before date to voters...who lick it up.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 02 October 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

... "How DARE you vote for the Liberals. We are a CONSERVATIVE FAMILY!"....

You must have missed the vote.

Quote

I've not met the type of Conservative Nevyn is speaking about, as I don't think they've existed for at least 2 decades now.

Fiscal Conservatives in 2018 are a fiction they are selling past their best before date to voters...who lick it up.

I have, and they do exist, but my utterly subjective pov is that they form a minority within the wider party. They happen to be the best educated, most vocal, most 'powerful' within the party, but a Trumpian emergence giving louder voice to the more radical/less tolerant isn't far below the surface, i suspect.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 02 October 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

I have, and they do exist, but my utterly subjective pov is that they form a minority within the wider party. They happen to be the best educated, most vocal, most 'powerful' within the party, but a Trumpian emergence giving louder voice to the more radical/less tolerant isn't far below the surface, i suspect.

Evidence Example A: Doug Ford.

[D'rek]

QuickTidal, on 02 October 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Abyss, on 02 October 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

The Cons have been the party for the far right, the negative stereotype redneck, the racist, the xenophobe, the climate-change denier, anti-LGBTetc., anti-abortion, more guns, less gov regulation of guns, etc etc. for a long time now. One might argue the Cons are somewhat 'Liberal' in some of their wider government and industry stances, but i'd say that's as far as it goes.

^^This is spot on accurate in my experience.

I say this as someone whose family (minus my dad) is filled with Conservative voters...all of whom subscribe to AT LEAST 1 or 2 of the traits Abyss mentions, regurgitate hard-right taking points as gospel, and basically act like assholes a lot of the time. They think Trudeau is a demon who is eating our democracy one nanny-hire at a time, and that Doug Ford is doing good work by tearing down old school politicians and getting shit done. My sister nearly tore my head off when I told her I voted NDP in the provincial election...and it was already bad before that when she learned I was a lifelong Liberal voter...she said "How DARE you vote for the Liberals. We are a CONSERVATIVE FAMILY!"....meanwhile I didn't have the heart to tell her my father (who used to be Conservative in the past) voted Liberal in the last Federal election, and NDP in the most recent Provincial because he's smart enough to see through the Cons bullshit.

I've not met the type of Conservative Nevyn is speaking about, as I don't think they've existed for at least 2 decades now.

Fiscal Conservatives in 2018 are a fiction they are selling past their best before date to voters...who lick it up.

You're describing their voters, but less-so their politicians.

The voters would want all immigrants banned, but the CPC has hardly ever decreased immigration numbers, and not recently (despite the Syrian refugee crisis and all that). They reduced healthcare coverage for refugees, and other minor stuff like that, but hardly any extreme measures of the sort the extreme-right voters you describe would be calling for.

Likewise for those far-right voters who want to ban all the muslims. What did we actually get put in place? The milquetoast barbaric practices hotline? Not being allowed to cover your head at citizenship ceremonies? Pretty minor affairs compared to, say, Trump's country bans.

The Cons even refused to bring the abortion debate back through 3 consecutive terms.

Now for all of these issues and more there were certainly many *voters*/party members who wanted extreme measures taken. And in many cases there were even back-bencher MPs who wanted them (iirc one MP did want to table a motion against abortion, for example). But the party didn't actually do it. I wouldn't call the party or the politics any of those far-right things. Just some of their base... too bad there isn't a minor far-right party they can flock to instead.

[Nevyn]

D, on 02 October 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 02 October 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Abyss, on 02 October 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

The Cons have been the party for the far right, the negative stereotype redneck, the racist, the xenophobe, the climate-change denier, anti-LGBTetc., anti-abortion, more guns, less gov regulation of guns, etc etc. for a long time now. One might argue the Cons are somewhat 'Liberal' in some of their wider government and industry stances, but i'd say that's as far as it goes.

^^This is spot on accurate in my experience.

I say this as someone whose family (minus my dad) is filled with Conservative voters...all of whom subscribe to AT LEAST 1 or 2 of the traits Abyss mentions, regurgitate hard-right taking points as gospel, and basically act like assholes a lot of the time. They think Trudeau is a demon who is eating our democracy one nanny-hire at a time, and that Doug Ford is doing good work by tearing down old school politicians and getting shit done. My sister nearly tore my head off when I told her I voted NDP in the provincial election...and it was already bad before that when she learned I was a lifelong Liberal voter...she said "How DARE you vote for the Liberals. We are a CONSERVATIVE FAMILY!"....meanwhile I didn't have the heart to tell her my father (who used to be Conservative in the past) voted Liberal in the last Federal election, and NDP in the most recent Provincial because he's smart enough to see through the Cons bullshit.

I've not met the type of Conservative Nevyn is speaking about, as I don't think they've existed for at least 2 decades now.

Fiscal Conservatives in 2018 are a fiction they are selling past their best before date to voters...who lick it up.

You're describing their voters, but less-so their politicians.

The voters would want all immigrants banned, but the CPC has hardly ever decreased immigration numbers, and not recently (despite the Syrian refugee crisis and all that). They reduced healthcare coverage for refugees, and other minor stuff like that, but hardly any extreme measures of the sort the extreme-right voters you describe would be calling for.

Likewise for those far-right voters who want to ban all the muslims. What did we actually get put in place? The milquetoast barbaric practices hotline? Not being allowed to cover your head at citizenship ceremonies? Pretty minor affairs compared to, say, Trump's country bans.

The Cons even refused to bring the abortion debate back through 3 consecutive terms.

Now for all of these issues and more there were certainly many *voters*/party members who wanted extreme measures taken. And in many cases there were even back-bencher MPs who wanted them (iirc one MP did want to table a motion against abortion, for example). But the party didn't actually do it. I wouldn't call the party or the politics any of those far-right things. Just some of their base... too bad there isn't a minor far-right party they can flock to instead.

*This*

You get crazy, racist, blindly partisan people in the Conservative base. And you get people with their own biases and prejudices in the base of the liberals and the NDP.

The point I was making is that in government, parties tend to moderate and lean a bit away from their base.

Similar to the US, independent is killing all the parties in terms of political support. Unlike the US, there is no divided government, split elected houses and separated executive. Which means if you pander to your base there is really nowhere to hide politically, and it is very tough to retain power.

[D'rek]

Also, worth noting Canada has far, far less of a provincial-federal link than the U.S.' state-federal link in political trends and parties. Alberta has an NDP provincial government, after all.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 02 October 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

D, on 02 October 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 02 October 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Abyss, on 02 October 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

The Cons have been the party for the far right, the negative stereotype redneck, the racist, the xenophobe, the climate-change denier, anti-LGBTetc., anti-abortion, more guns, less gov regulation of guns, etc etc. for a long time now. One might argue the Cons are somewhat 'Liberal' in some of their wider government and industry stances, but i'd say that's as far as it goes.

^^This is spot on accurate in my experience.

I say this as someone whose family (minus my dad) is filled with Conservative voters...all of whom subscribe to AT LEAST 1 or 2 of the traits Abyss mentions, regurgitate hard-right taking points as gospel, and basically act like assholes a lot of the time. They think Trudeau is a demon who is eating our democracy one nanny-hire at a time, and that Doug Ford is doing good work by tearing down old school politicians and getting shit done. My sister nearly tore my head off when I told her I voted NDP in the provincial election...and it was already bad before that when she learned I was a lifelong Liberal voter...she said "How DARE you vote for the Liberals. We are a CONSERVATIVE FAMILY!"....meanwhile I didn't have the heart to tell her my father (who used to be Conservative in the past) voted Liberal in the last Federal election, and NDP in the most recent Provincial because he's smart enough to see through the Cons bullshit.

I've not met the type of Conservative Nevyn is speaking about, as I don't think they've existed for at least 2 decades now.

Fiscal Conservatives in 2018 are a fiction they are selling past their best before date to voters...who lick it up.

You're describing their voters, but less-so their politicians.

The voters would want all immigrants banned, but the CPC has hardly ever decreased immigration numbers, and not recently (despite the Syrian refugee crisis and all that). They reduced healthcare coverage for refugees, and other minor stuff like that, but hardly any extreme measures of the sort the extreme-right voters you describe would be calling for.

Likewise for those far-right voters who want to ban all the muslims. What did we actually get put in place? The milquetoast barbaric practices hotline? Not being allowed to cover your head at citizenship ceremonies? Pretty minor affairs compared to, say, Trump's country bans.

The Cons even refused to bring the abortion debate back through 3 consecutive terms.

Now for all of these issues and more there were certainly many *voters*/party members who wanted extreme measures taken. And in many cases there were even back-bencher MPs who wanted them (iirc one MP did want to table a motion against abortion, for example). But the party didn't actually do it. I wouldn't call the party or the politics any of those far-right things. Just some of their base... too bad there isn't a minor far-right party they can flock to instead.

*This*

You get crazy, racist, blindly partisan people in the Conservative base. And you get people with their own biases and prejudices in the base of the liberals and the NDP.

The point I was making is that in government, parties tend to moderate and lean a bit away from their base.

Similar to the US, independent is killing all the parties in terms of political support. Unlike the US, there is no divided government, split elected houses and separated executive. Which means if you pander to your base there is really nowhere to hide politically, and it is very tough to retain power.

You can't separate the voters from the party and its leaders. Sorry. I don't care what is enacted successfully off the platforms and rhetoric and what isn't...if the base if voting for you, they have a reason, and if you aren't giving them what they want, they won't vote for you.

The most recent proof of this is, yet again, Doug Ford. He is a crazy, racist, sexist, silver-spoon-fed, corrupt businessman. He is EXACTLY the base that voted for him.

The first thing he did when he got into power was to roll back the Sex Ed Curriculum to 1998 standards. And he pulls on the carbon tax. Won't denounce white supremacists like Faith Goldy. And was willing to use the nuclear option to get his way to gerrymander a single city...

Harper was the same, he just called it "family values" and then hid in his office for a decade while he pulled shady shit behind the curtain and called it conservative. Anyone who claims otherwise it kidding themselves.

Worse, this shit goes back in Ontario to Mike Harris. He was pulling the same nonsense, from/for the same base. You just have to see through the decisions to the underlying goals of what they achieve (AKA fuck poor people, fuck education, fuck everyone who doesn't think like a 90's North Bay resident [racist AF], fuck the environment..ect)

-Caused tainted drinking water deaths in Walkerton, ON by defunding water safety inspections
-Caused an enormous fare hike coupled with a huge service cut on the TTC
-Leased the 407 for 99 years in order to balance the budget in an election year
-Eliminated grade 13
-Downloaded a lot of expenses to the cities without giving cities any choice in the matter
-Amalgamated 6 cities with the Toronto regional government into the current City of Toronto against the will of the residents

So I'm not at all buying any other narrative about Conservative leaders. Sorry.

[D'rek]

Typical Torontonian thinking Toronto = Ontario = Canada

Pretty sure as an outsider Brujah is really only concerned with the national scale.

QuickTidal, on 02 October 2018 - 05:29 PM, said:

You can't separate the voters from the party and its leaders. Sorry. I don't care what is enacted successfully off the platforms and rhetoric and what isn't...if the base if voting for you, they have a reason, and if you aren't giving them what they want, they won't vote for you.

Sure I can.

And by your argument, the very moment the Green Party folds the NDP is now a far-left hippie Marxist party simply because the most-left voters have no one more left to vote for anymore?