[Macros]

I dunno, in Civil War, Texas and Cali won

[Tiste Simeon]

 Abyss, on 30 April 2025 - 03:01 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 30 April 2025 - 12:47 PM, said:

 Garak, on 30 April 2025 - 12:25 PM, said:

I do not separatist/sovereign movements. So, you break away from the bigger thing and are now a smaller area and with no treatise or anything with anyone. How is this gonna help you?

They think that they will have all the current benefits of being a Canadian province as a standalone country with 4.2million ppl and international borders on all sides to contend with...it's nonsense, and no one who actually understands the situation would ever suggest it.


Danielle Marlaina Smith is insane.

See also: 60 years of Quebec separatism.

Is she still around or was she voted out (or was her position not up for election the other day?)

[Abyss]

Macros, on 30 April 2025 - 03:09 PM, said:

I dunno, in Civil War, Texas and Cali won

So did Captain America, in the movie... Iron Man won in the comics.

[Mentalist]

Tiste Simeon, on 30 April 2025 - 06:50 PM, said:

Abyss, on 30 April 2025 - 03:01 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 April 2025 - 12:47 PM, said:

Garak, on 30 April 2025 - 12:25 PM, said:

I do not separatist/sovereign movements. So, you break away from the bigger thing and are now a smaller area and with no treatise or anything with anyone. How is this gonna help you?

They think that they will have all the current benefits of being a Canadian province as a standalone country with 4.2million ppl and international borders on all sides to contend with...it's nonsense, and no one who actually understands the situation would ever suggest it.


Danielle Marlaina Smith is insane.

See also: 60 years of Quebec separatism.

Is she still around or was she voted out (or was her position not up for election the other day?)

She is the provincial Premier of Alberta.

This was a federal election.

She is now upset her fellow party leader won't be Prime Minister, and she's being obstructionist towards Carney before he can even start doing anything

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Abyss, on 30 April 2025 - 03:01 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 April 2025 - 12:47 PM, said:

Garak, on 30 April 2025 - 12:25 PM, said:

I do not separatist/sovereign movements. So, you break away from the bigger thing and are now a smaller area and with no treatise or anything with anyone. How is this gonna help you?

They think that they will have all the current benefits of being a Canadian province as a standalone country with 4.2million ppl and international borders on all sides to contend with...it's nonsense, and no one who actually understands the situation would ever suggest it.


Danielle Marlaina Smith is insane.

See also: 60 years of Quebec separatism.

At least Quebec wouldn't be land locked.

[Maark Abbott]

Tiste Simeon, on 29 April 2025 - 03:04 PM, said:

Yeah from what I saw, people took notice of how long it took pp to soak against trump. Like, he didn't want to but then realised too late how the tides were turning against him.

pp soaking in trump is NOT what I wanted to read at this, 8:45am on the 1st of May in the year of 2025.

[Tiste Simeon]

 Maark Abbott, on 01 May 2025 - 07:40 AM, said:

 Tiste Simeon, on 29 April 2025 - 03:04 PM, said:

Yeah from what I saw, people took notice of how long it took pp to soak against trump. Like, he didn't want to but then realised too late how the tides were turning against him.

pp soaking in trump is NOT what I wanted to read at this, 8:45am on the 1st of May in the year of 2025.

Haha that's a pretty funny typo in fairness. Sorry for the image though!

[Abyss]

Mentalist, on 30 April 2025 - 07:12 PM, said:

...
Danielle Marlaina Smith is insane.
...
She is now upset her fellow party leader won't be Prime Minister, and she's being obstructionist towards Carney before he can even start doing anything

To be fair, she was already that before the election.

Gwynn ap Nudd, on 01 May 2025 - 04:18 AM, said:

Abyss, on 30 April 2025 - 03:01 PM, said:

...
See also: 60 years of Quebec separatism.

At least Quebec wouldn't be land locked.

Quebec's location is a whole other issue, as they (the separatists, what's left of them) would like to think they could just split Canada in two, but Montreal - where the major port is - has routinely argued if Quebec goes they stay and the court fights to determine the answer to that have not been very conclusive.

Tiste Simeon, on 01 May 2025 - 09:59 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 01 May 2025 - 07:40 AM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 29 April 2025 - 03:04 PM, said:

Yeah from what I saw, people took notice of how long it took pp to soak against trump. Like, he didn't want to but then realised too late how the tides were turning against him.

pp soaking in trump is NOT what I wanted to read at this, 8:45am on the 1st of May in the year of 2025.

Haha that's a pretty funny typo in fairness. Sorry for the image though!

Ew.

I suspect PP also massively underestimated the backlash against him personally, in his riding, for supporting the convoy. Throw in his general lack of presence, forgetting he was in his riding the single time he showed up, and a hard press grassroots campaign by the Lib candidate, and it looks like he got smacked on the local level, arguably even harder than national.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 01 May 2025 - 01:17 PM, said:

I suspect PP also massively underestimated the backlash against him personally, in his riding, for supporting the convoy. Throw in his general lack of presence, forgetting he was in his riding the single time he showed up, and a hard press grassroots campaign by the Lib candidate, and it looks like he got smacked on the local level, arguably even harder than national.

And now the Cons are trying to argue that since he is the one who gained them more seats (AKA "grew" the party), that they should find a way to keep him on...but the Canadian people could not have been clearer....they were willing to cave to more Con seats, but PP as leader was fucking hard rejected. Take the hint Angry Milhouse, and fuck all the way off.


I swear it would be funny if a back bencher (I've heard one in Alberta is willing to do this) resigns so he can run for the seat...if he was rejected again. Like even in a "safe" Alberta seat there is no guarantee that he would win...the other parties would fully be able to participate AND spend as much money as they could muster on it...so it's not like PP just gets back in...and even such a by-election would be dependent on Carney's say so for when it could happen, so even in the perfect scenario where he gets the byelecftion, and the stars align and he wins the seat...that shit doesn't happen until AT THE EARLIEST the Fall...or longer (up to the PM)...so whoever is interim Opposition leader until then will have been in that spot for a decent chuck of time by then.


Nevermind that trying to run for a backbencher seat in a safe riding just shows that it's a power grab...the Canadian people rejected him...and him weaselling his way back in after that through a political loophole would open him to CONSTANT attacks about that from the other parties.

It's a net loss no matter what. The best thing the CPC could do is keep him turfed, and rebuild and find someone else would is more palatable to the population. Actually the BEST thing for them to do is crack the party in two and let the old school fiscal PCs take back over...the SoCon/Reformists have lost them FOUR kicks at the can now, so they need to take the hint that Canada is NEVER going to elect them...and this was their only shot on the back of a deeply unliked Trudeau....if Carney shows even a MODICUM of competency in this role, you won't have nearly as many people threatening to jump camps to the Cons...and him being a Red Tory means he's going to implement lots of PRe-Harper Con policies.


None of that is worth keeping this ONE guy on as Leader. None of it.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 01 May 2025 - 01:41 PM, said:

Abyss, on 01 May 2025 - 01:17 PM, said:

I suspect PP also massively underestimated the backlash against him personally, in his riding, for supporting the convoy. Throw in his general lack of presence, forgetting he was in his riding the single time he showed up, and a hard press grassroots campaign by the Lib candidate, and it looks like he got smacked on the local level, arguably even harder than national.

And now the Cons are trying to argue that since he is the one who gained them more seats (AKA "grew" the party), that they should find a way to keep him on...but the Canadian people could not have been clearer....they were willing to cave to more Con seats, but PP as leader was fucking hard rejected. Take the hint Angry Milhouse, and fuck all the way off .... None of that is worth keeping this ONE guy on as Leader. None of it.

Accurate from one angle, but i have quite a few cons-leaning friends and we've had some interesting discussions around this, it seems the smack truly came at the local level, at the federal level people like, borderline adore him for his relentless attacks. A lot of it is cloaked in general dislike for Trudeau that carries over to the Libs, and i find the willingness to overlook his generally vague or bland plans troubling, but the 'he led the cons to a recent/historic high number of seats' line is carrying a lot of weight.

That said were he to be dropped in somewhere and lose the byelection wow.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 01 May 2025 - 01:55 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 01 May 2025 - 01:41 PM, said:

Abyss, on 01 May 2025 - 01:17 PM, said:

I suspect PP also massively underestimated the backlash against him personally, in his riding, for supporting the convoy. Throw in his general lack of presence, forgetting he was in his riding the single time he showed up, and a hard press grassroots campaign by the Lib candidate, and it looks like he got smacked on the local level, arguably even harder than national.

And now the Cons are trying to argue that since he is the one who gained them more seats (AKA "grew" the party), that they should find a way to keep him on...but the Canadian people could not have been clearer....they were willing to cave to more Con seats, but PP as leader was fucking hard rejected. Take the hint Angry Milhouse, and fuck all the way off .... None of that is worth keeping this ONE guy on as Leader. None of it.

That said were he to be dropped in somewhere and lose the byelection wow.

And the political ads write themselves. "Canada rejected him, but he's trying to get back in through the backdoor because above all else, he desires POWER....don't let him"...


It makes SO little sense.

the reason the Federal level love him is because too many of them as SoCons now.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 01 May 2025 - 02:00 PM, said:

Abyss, on 01 May 2025 - 01:55 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 01 May 2025 - 01:41 PM, said:

Abyss, on 01 May 2025 - 01:17 PM, said:

I suspect PP also massively underestimated the backlash against him personally, in his riding, for supporting the convoy. Throw in his general lack of presence, forgetting he was in his riding the single time he showed up, and a hard press grassroots campaign by the Lib candidate, and it looks like he got smacked on the local level, arguably even harder than national.

And now the Cons are trying to argue that since he is the one who gained them more seats (AKA "grew" the party), that they should find a way to keep him on...but the Canadian people could not have been clearer....they were willing to cave to more Con seats, but PP as leader was fucking hard rejected. Take the hint Angry Milhouse, and fuck all the way off .... None of that is worth keeping this ONE guy on as Leader. None of it.

That said were he to be dropped in somewhere and lose the byelection wow.

And the political ads write themselves. "Canada rejected him, but he's trying to get back in through the backdoor because above all else, he desires POWER....don't let him"...


It makes SO little sense.

the reason the Federal level love him is because too many of them as SoCons now.

It's interesting because he held that riding for 8 years and they were perfectly content to be ignored, but once things truly mattered on a local level and he showed his true colours it was buh-bye pp, cons, the whole thing. This is a total devil's advocate position, but take him out of the Ottawa convoy absentee context and theyll probably love him again/more.

[Mentalist]

Lol, let's be honest: Quebec rejected them, and gave Libs the votes for a plurality.And the only thing that made it poissible was trump.

And I'm guessing that if trump didn't happen, the lib losses in 905 would have been greater. The margins in Brampton were pretty thin.

Cons are gaining popularity, gradually. It's naive to say "Canada will continue to reject them"

And the only way the PC splits is if there's an electoral reform that makes SoCons and fiscalCons viable on their own. Like PR.
Otherwise, the Cons need that "anti-woke" voter chunk, and they won't stop pandering to them

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 01 May 2025 - 03:46 PM

[QuickTidal]

Mentalist, on 01 May 2025 - 03:45 PM, said:

Lol, let's be honest: Quebec rejected them, and gave Libs the votes for a plurality.And the only thing that made it poissible was trump.

Yes, this is accurate.

Mentalist, on 01 May 2025 - 03:45 PM, said:

And I'm guessing that if trump didn't happen, the lib losses in 905 would have been greater. The margins in Brampton were pretty thin.

It will never cease to amaze me that Brampton votes so hard against its own interests...

Mentalist, on 01 May 2025 - 03:45 PM, said:

Cons are gaining popularity, gradually. It's naive to say "Canada will continue to reject them"

4 rejections in a row, regardless of numbers climbing on some areas is a pretty clean rejection record. Canada WILL continue to reject them as long as the Reform BS is present in their platform and rhetoric...Let's be clear the ONLY reason they gained like they did in this election was that Trudeau was long in the tooth and people began to blame him for everything...without him as a scapegoat PP and the SoCons that rule the CPC had nothing...they didn't run on policy, they ran on hatred of the incumbent party's head. It's why they could not pivot once JT was gone and Trump started yapping. They had what? 3 months to pivot, and nothing. The platform comes out after advance voting and is like 17 pages half of which were glossy photos of Pierre? No sir. We WILL continue to reject them...I feel like a broken record Canada leans Center right on the worst of days and centre left on most others...Harper knew this. He very much made it into power and stayed as long as he did (even dragging SEVEN straight deficits in his wake after inheriting a good economy from Martin) because he avoided publicly talking about ANY of the SoCon/Alberta/Reformist BS...everyone that came after him (barring O'Toole who tried adjusting to centre and got knifed by the Reformist CPCs for it) has been varying degrees of OPEN SoCon BS....Alberta claims it's underrepresented.....but 144 seats in a Conservative caucus in Ottawa for what they are (12% of the electorate) from a political affiliation that was BORN of Albertan Conservativeness....seems almost like an overrepresentation to me...just becuase that party is not in power doesn't mean that are unrepresented...I'm on term 3 in Ontario of a Provincial Conservative govt, but you don't hear me bitching about being underlapped in the Legislature with my NDP vote...

Mentalist, on 01 May 2025 - 03:45 PM, said:

And the only way the PC splits is if there's an electoral reform that makes SoCons and fiscalCons viable on their own.

The infighting between the SoCons and old school PCs if it gets bad enough will cause the old school PCs to splinter off. It's not like it hasn't happened before.

Mentalist, on 01 May 2025 - 03:45 PM, said:

Otherwise, the Cons need that "anti-woke" voter chunk, and they won't stop pandering to them

They don't though. Those people will vote for them even if they ditch that shit. They act like their "base" will abandon them if they abandon the anti-woke shit...it's nonsense. They will very much keep voting for them begrudgingly anyways as it's got the Conservative banner. No one is jumping to the PPCs. Proof is once again Alberta...a province that has voted for provincially for EVERY iteration of the Conservatives no matter where they landed on the political spectrum...since like 1921....United Farmers and Social Credit (from 1921 to 1967) both of which were Conservative-bent parties, then it was PCs for FORTY straight years no matter the leader....many of whom would be EXACTLY like Mark Carney is now on the political spectrum...then after a short dally with the NDP...they went UCP which is the crazy bathsit insane wild rose party merged with the old PCs...at the federal level Alberta elected no Liberal MPs 1958–1963, 1965–1968, 1972–1993, 2006–2015, 2019 to 2021...so I mean there isn't really a situation where federally Alberta will vote against the CPC as it has never shown an interest in doing so in the last 75 years...they are a captured electorate. It's why thew Cons always do so well there without actually doing more for Albertans....becuase Albertans don't give a shit about anything other than voting for their "team"....who is in charge and what they plan to do or are doing matters not at all to them. So there's no reason to worry about that "base" going anywhere.

[Abyss]

et voila, PP dropped into a rural Alberta riding where the cons won w 82% of the vote, byelection to follow.

[Tiste Simeon]

 Abyss, on 02 May 2025 - 05:46 PM, said:

et voila, PP dropped into a rural Alberta riding where the cons won w 82% of the vote, byelection to follow.

It would be hilarious if he got booted out again like QT said haha

[LinearPhilosopher]

Mentalist, on 26 April 2025 - 10:50 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 26 April 2025 - 10:41 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 25 April 2025 - 01:12 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 25 April 2025 - 12:52 PM, said:

Yeah its part of the whole western alienation, the fact that elections are sometimes decided before west coast polls are closed.

Then they should get more people. I can't help it that Ontario has 14.2million people while Sask has 1million, and Alberta 4...Toronto almost has as many people as Alberta.


Wanna know what really grinds my walnuts about places like Alberta? They bitch and moan about not being represented in the East /Federally...but the KEEP strictly voting in Conservative MPs and Provincial govt (be they PCs or the UCP combo). They are a captured electorate. The Conservative politicians KNOW this. They know that no mater what happens Albertans will, by and large, continuously vote them into power. So why would they WORK for those votes? Like compare with the East Coast provinces. They shift between the parties depending on policy and who they think will help them, so all the parties (Federally and Provincially) have to work for their votes and nothing is ever stagnant there....Alberta? Sask? 9 times out of 10 will vote in Cons who then don't help them, don't spend money on things that will help them, and they just rant and Roar about the Feds being the problem...AB is not well represented in Ottawa because the VAST majority of Canada is not some deeply Socially conservative nation...we are centre (right) on the best of days. So how Danielle Smith, Wild Rose Party amalgam got in is proof that Albertans don't know what the fuck they are doing or voting for. And then the one time in the last like 50 yrs that another party DID get in? The Cons (who have left Alberta in dire straights for decades on pretty much all public fronts) screeched about how the NDP were no good and destroyed the province...no they were actually trying to fix it and realign it towards Canadian goals, but it was going to take more than 4 years to do so....so impatient Albertans voted in Kenney and returned to their cycle of voting against their interests again, but under the veneer of conservatism which actually destroys their province but makes them feel comfortable so they don't pay attention or care.

Theres something to be said for the fact that if the election is decided before you polls are even closed it does a lot to disenfranchise people. But you know, you keep at it, im sure that dismissive attitude and solution is sure to help that problem. You also conveniently left out BC, last I check BC was in the west and BC is one of the largest provinces with considerable economic pull.

Realistically, the best way to addess that would be to give the Senate a greater role in federal politics, which would then ensure that the Western provinces' concerns were given more weight.

As it stands, with riding numbers determined by population, the Monreal-Ottawa-GTA trifecta is going to have a disproportionate weight in the national politics.

Now thats an interesting idea. I'll be honest I hadn't thought about Senate reform. I know many Canadians feel the Senate is useless and should be abolished. The issue when it comes to reforming the Senate, is would changing it's role help solve this issue or other issues, and would it create other problems? If so, are we trading up, or trading down.

Looking to our southern neighbors having a stronger senate may not neccesarily lead to better outcomes, though I'll also disclose I don't know enough about other democracies to be able to make a comprehensive analysis as to whether Senate reform is the way to go.

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2025 - 02:37 AM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 26 April 2025 - 10:41 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 25 April 2025 - 01:12 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 25 April 2025 - 12:52 PM, said:

Yeah its part of the whole western alienation, the fact that elections are sometimes decided before west coast polls are closed.

Then they should get more people. I can't help it that Ontario has 14.2million people while Sask has 1million, and Alberta 4...Toronto almost has as many people as Alberta.


Wanna know what really grinds my walnuts about places like Alberta? They bitch and moan about not being represented in the East /Federally...but the KEEP strictly voting in Conservative MPs and Provincial govt (be they PCs or the UCP combo). They are a captured electorate. The Conservative politicians KNOW this. They know that no mater what happens Albertans will, by and large, continuously vote them into power. So why would they WORK for those votes? Like compare with the East Coast provinces. They shift between the parties depending on policy and who they think will help them, so all the parties (Federally and Provincially) have to work for their votes and nothing is ever stagnant there....Alberta? Sask? 9 times out of 10 will vote in Cons who then don't help them, don't spend money on things that will help them, and they just rant and Roar about the Feds being the problem...AB is not well represented in Ottawa because the VAST majority of Canada is not some deeply Socially conservative nation...we are centre (right) on the best of days. So how Danielle Smith, Wild Rose Party amalgam got in is proof that Albertans don't know what the fuck they are doing or voting for. And then the one time in the last like 50 yrs that another party DID get in? The Cons (who have left Alberta in dire straights for decades on pretty much all public fronts) screeched about how the NDP were no good and destroyed the province...no they were actually trying to fix it and realign it towards Canadian goals, but it was going to take more than 4 years to do so....so impatient Albertans voted in Kenney and returned to their cycle of voting against their interests again, but under the veneer of conservatism which actually destroys their province but makes them feel comfortable so they don't pay attention or care.

Theres something to be said for the fact that if the election is decided before you polls are even closed it does a lot to disenfranchise people. But you know, you keep at it, im sure that dismissive attitude and solution is sure to help that problem. You also conveniently left out BC, last I check BC was in the west and BC is one of the largest provinces with considerable economic pull.

Again, I cannot help that their population is smaller. Notice the east coast doesn’t complain that their votes don’t matter?


Also, I know you don’t like me, but there’s no need to be a dick about it bub.

The east coast isn't as Vocal as the west, but without evidence to the contrary i'm not going to claim that the maritimes don't have similar feelings. While the population is smaller, if you take BC, (5.7m), AB (5m), Sk (1.3), (1.4m), Thats just over 25% of the entire country. Thats a decent enough chunk to swing any election and make or brake a majority or even form a goverment. I will say that they delayed the publication of results from polls in the EST, Central and Mountain and harmonized them in this election I think is a step in the right direction.

And to be frank, glass houses and rocks my dude. You can't just give me a farcical response to something and then complain when I claim you're being dismissive.

Tiste Simeon, on 29 April 2025 - 01:30 PM, said:

So I dunno how it works in Canada but could a coalition be a good thing? Would he be able to work with NDP (or even BQ??) to form a government?

Given the size of the liberal bloc needing only a handful of votes he doesn't even need a formal coalition. Just a handful of MPs from any of the other parties would work. If you turn back the clock to the Harper Era he was able to govern without a coalition as since the opposition was so incompetent, Harper could just dare the opposition to a vote of no confidence, confident the electorate wouldn't care for another election and would likely lash out against the liberal/NDP/PQ for starting an election they didin't want.

Considering PP won't be back until the by-election is done, the NDP need to rebuild without official party status, we're not likely to see an election for at least a year which mean a formal coalition isn't neccesary.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: Yesterday, 10:26 PM

[QuickTidal]

I complained you were being dick. I could care less about your dismissiveness.

You keep trying to argue that the west has valid complaints. They do not. Alberta is 12% of the national electorate. The cons got 144 seats and will form the official opposition…that’s PLENTY of representation in Ottawa (and overweighted amount frankly)…unless your issue is that they aren't the ruling party, in which case I return to find more people to live in Alberta or elect politicians who align with the VAST majority of Canadians. Being grumpy that your team lost the win constantly SHOULD send a message to them, but it doesn’t resonate. Alberta are the biggest whiners in the country…and fail to realize they are a minority and always will be.

And the fact that PP isn’t taking the hint to fuck all the way off into the sun after losing the PM a lot and his riding and has shoved a backbencher in the Deepest AB con stronghold shows me that they aren’t at all serious about forming govt…MFer wants power plain and simple and so do his Alberta reform junkies….im
Not going to sugar coat shit. Alberta has complained about its lot in the country for my whole ass life and yet they have NEVER attempted to do shit differently.

[LinearPhilosopher]

QuickTidal, on 03 May 2025 - 01:25 PM, said:

I complained you were being dick. I could care less about your dismissiveness.

You keep trying to argue that the west has valid complaints. They do not. Alberta is 12% of the national electorate. The cons got 144 seats and will form the official opposition…that’s PLENTY of representation in Ottawa (and overweighted amount frankly)…unless your issue is that they aren't the ruling party, in which case I return to find more people to live in Alberta or elect politicians who align with the VAST majority of Canadians. Being grumpy that your team lost the win constantly SHOULD send a message to them, but it doesn’t resonate. Alberta are the biggest whiners in the country…and fail to realize they are a minority and always will be.

And the fact that PP isn’t taking the hint to fuck all the way off into the sun after losing the PM a lot and his riding and has shoved a backbencher in the Deepest AB con stronghold shows me that they aren’t at all serious about forming govt…MFer wants power plain and simple and so do his Alberta reform junkies….im
Not going to sugar coat shit. Alberta has complained about its lot in the country for my whole ass life and yet they have NEVER attempted to do shit differently.

I said the western provinces (not sure if you know this but there's more to the west then just alberta). I also just think in general you have a colossal misread of my position. The impetus for this entire conversation is that the west often feel like their issues don't matter as much. That isn't a controversial statement. Even going through and talking to people in northern ontario they feel their issues don't get any airtime at all. As someone who deals with numbers for a living I totally get that you need to min/max your efforts, but if as a result of those approaches, the only people whose grievances get air time are torontonians and montrealers, then maybe there needs to be a shift to try and address some of those issues, not just pretend they don't exist and write off the opinion of those who feel like that as complete loons.

And lets be honest, are you even remotely surprised at what happened with PP? The guy is a career politician. Thats what he does. You don't seriously think he'd retire to become a productive member society now do you? If anything I almost feel bad for the back bencher that stepped down.