[Judge Bredd]

So.....lets begin....
All the factions are at their maximum capabilities......
Every faction has got their best members..
Just a plain battlefield with its own spirits to call upon.......
VOTE!!!!

This post has been edited by Judge Bredd: 20 January 2015 - 10:45 AM

[Gorefest]

Where are the Bridgeburners? Where is the Army of the Whirlwind? Where are the Tenescowri? What is the rationale behind the list choices? No other races?

[Judge Bredd]

I didnt include bridgeburners because it would too complicated with all the members in now other factions........
Whirlwind as to my knowledge should not be included because most of all the loyal members are dead.....
Tenescowri are just cannibal force as far as it goes....
But I see your point.....
Iam just new to this forum and was bored

This post has been edited by Judge Bredd: 20 January 2015 - 11:30 AM

[Aptorian]

This poll doesn't entirely make sense.

The Talon and Claw are not military groups. They are assassins and spies. If you pitted them against any of the other groups on the list it would consist of years of unseen stabbings, sabotage, poisonings, paying off other political or military factions to attack, etc.

On a battlefield my money would be on the Crimson Guard at it's best. It was probably a much bigger and powerful force than the other companies mentioned on this list. The commanders and officers have decades or centuries of experience and they are really hard to kill.

The Bonehunters has one or two High Mages. The religious armies have their 3 priests. The Crimson Guard has a TON of battle mages and Cowl and his group.

This post has been edited by Apt: 20 January 2015 - 12:06 PM

[Gorefest]

Well, from the choices on offer, I'd say that we can disregard the Claws and Talons, as we already saw Apsalar single-handedly kill off the lot with a single shadow dance and there are characters in CG and the Bonehunters that can be considered on par with her. Talons likewise. Grey Helms and Swords are bog-standard military companies that, apart form their numbers and military discipline, don't have much going for them. So Bonehunters vs Crimson Guard, I'd put my money on the BH.

[Aptorian]

Gorefest, on 20 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Well, from the choices on offer, I'd say that we can disregard the Claws and Talons, as we already saw Apsalar single-handedly kill off the lot with a single shadow dance and there are characters in CG and the Bonehunters that can be considered on par with her.

What? No. No, no, no. Not in a million years.

In Malaz city alone you're talking about 600 combat trained hand to hand combatants most of which have some kind of magical ability. Even the worst of them will be at least as dangerous as a trained soldier.

Apsalar is a carbon copy of the Patron of Assassins. Her killing all those claws does not make the Claws look bad. It makes Apsalar look like a thing of nightmares. Something you scare your children with when they are missbehaving.

Nobody's army has anything that is that scary. Maybe Cowl could face her down and maybe even give her pause but she KICKED A HOUND THROUGH A WALL.

What this discussion is really about is the shaved knuckles. It's the magical capability and exceptional characters. If you ignore those then all of these armies could potentially stand toe to toe with one another all though I would still bet on the Crimson Guard given their superior combat experience.

In a fight between the Bonehunters and the Crimson Guard what does the Bonehunters really have? Quick Ben counters Cowl... and that's pretty much all the magical power they have on offer. The rest of the army consiste of low level squad mages. The Crimson Guard has an actual division just consisting of battle mages meant to combat Malaz at its strengt. Plus dozens of named officers who on their own are scary mages or fierce fighters. Who in the Bonehunters do you see taking on Blues, Iron Bars, Skinner, Shimmer, Black the young and Black the Elder, etc.?

All through RG, BH and TCG The Bonehunters were the underdogs. They are not an impressive military force. They're just very stubborn.

This post has been edited by Apt: 20 January 2015 - 12:28 PM

[Gorefest]

The Bonehunters massively outnumber the CG though and the have sappers. So it really depends on the type of battlefield. BH could just hang back, have QB neutralise Cowl and lob cussers from a defensive position with a mined approach all day long.

[Aptorian]

Judge Bredd, on 20 January 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

So.....lets begin....
All the factions are at their maximum capabilities......
Every faction has got their best members..
Just a plain battlefield with its own spirits to call upon.......
VOTE!!!!

Maximum capabilities + Their best members.

I don't knwo what the CGs numbers were at their height but I bet they outnumber the Bonehunters by a lot. Or are you also counting Burnt Tears + Letherii?

I admit I hadn't counted the Malazan munitions. That's a serious advantage. However the CGs is one of the armies that actually has experience with that.

What do you mean, just hang back? Are you assuming that the Bonehunters are just dug in? Well, congratulations, you now have a non-moving target for the Crimson Guards mages to rain fire on. Meanwhile Cowl and co are teleporting in and out cutting off heads and stabbing hearts.

I feel that is extremely important to remember that the Bonehunters are late era Malazan Empire strength. Crimson Guard are from the height of the empires strength. The CGs have A LOT of magical fire power.

This post has been edited by Apt: 20 January 2015 - 12:40 PM

[Gorefest]

Teleporting in and out? Last time I checked, Tavore had a magic-deadening sword. And you fail to acknowledge players like Lostara Yil (Shadowdancing) and Ruthan Gudd (ice armored Elder god) among the BH ranks, among others. But fair enough, it might be tie.

[edit]Also, size-wise, CG may be large but they only had a few hundred Avowed at their height. The rest is pre-ubersword Kyle-style cannon fodder

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 20 January 2015 - 12:44 PM

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

Gorefest, on 20 January 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

Teleporting in and out? Last time I checked, Tavore had a magic-deadening sword. And you fail to acknowledge players like Lostara Yil (Shadowdancing) and Ruthan Gudd (ice armored Elder god) among the BH ranks, among others. But fair enough, it might be tie.

[edit]Also, size-wise, CG may be large but they only had a few hundred Avowed at their height. The rest is pre-ubersword Kyle-style cannon fodder

Even 10 avowed counts for minimum 100 normal guys. and they have alot more than that. Iron Bars makes pretty much anything look like a pussy cat, the Crimson Guard are at the very least, hard to kill but its much deeper than that, if you read Assail. Crimson Guard all the way. Thems guys be crazy! As much as I love the bridgeburners/bonehunters

[Aptorian]

Just realized something. The Crimson Guard has Greymane. I believe Abyss would agree that the discussion is over.

[Gorefest]

Apt, on 20 January 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

Just realized something. The Crimson Guard has Greymane. I believe Abyss would agree that the discussion is over.

Damn that Wolverine trump Then again, Greymane might turncoat again mid fight...

[theocean]

Apt, on 20 January 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 20 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Well, from the choices on offer, I'd say that we can disregard the Claws and Talons, as we already saw Apsalar single-handedly kill off the lot with a single shadow dance and there are characters in CG and the Bonehunters that can be considered on par with her.

In a fight between the Bonehunters and the Crimson Guard what does the Bonehunters really have? Quick Ben counters Cowl... and that's pretty much all the magical power they have on offer. The rest of the army consiste of low level squad mages. The Crimson Guard has an actual division just consisting of battle mages meant to combat Malaz at its strengt. Plus dozens of named officers who on their own are scary mages or fierce fighters. Who in the Bonehunters do you see taking on Blues, Iron Bars, Skinner, Shimmer, Black the young and Black the Elder, etc.?

All through RG, BH and TCG The Bonehunters were the underdogs. They are not an impressive military force. They're just very stubborn.

The bonehunters have more than that. Bottle is a high mage basically as is Sinn. They also have two near ascendants in Gesler and Stormy. Apsalar was also sort of a bonehunter i guess too. Kalam is a bad ass. Quick Ben. Moranth Munitions. Im not saying they take the Crimson down but dont sell them to short.



Also BridgeBurners win any showdown.

[Aptorian]

Bottle has demonstrated the ability to soul shift and that is all. He knows a lot but we've never seen him be particularly effective in a combat scenario.

Sinn is a good argument. I forgot about her. That makes two High Mage level battle mages. Still not enough.

I think calling Apsalar a member of the Bonehunters is cheating. She's a Bridgeburner if anything. Same with Kalam.

Gasler and Stormy are strong and durable but do you see any of the two winning a fight against the named Crimson Guard members?

Ghost form Hedge would be an interesting asset but he was flesh and blood by the time he joined the Bonehunters.

I remain convinced that The Crimson Guard absolutely crush the Bonehunters.

Consider that the ones we know of among the Crimson Guard are really impressive and dangerous. Then consider that many more Crimson Guard who were just as dangerous have died over time. They would also be in the fight. We're talking about A LOT of very dangerous named soldiers here.

The Cadre of mages surrounding Cowl alone would be really scary for an army with as little magical oomph as the Bonehunters.

This post has been edited by Apt: 20 January 2015 - 04:48 PM

[Gorefest]

Ruthan Gudd. Come on.

[Aptorian]

Ruthan Gudd is a known unknown. We know he's at least a hundred thousand years old. We know he has a magical ice suit he got from some Storm Raiders. That's it. We don't know how he would fair against somebody who is good with a sword.

[Dolmen 2.0]

So what i'm reading so far is that this fight is basically BH vs CG:

named soldiers vs named avowed

Named mages (Sinn, Grub and QB) vs Cowls Mage unit?

Any ascendant(Skinner and or Greymane) VS Ruthan Gudd

Lostara Yil taking on the Mage contingent? maybe Cowl himself?


I must ask though why not be as serious about each unit? The Talon, most eminent version, was stronger than the claw yes? At their height they had Dancer and the Tocs? Is it just me or does the Talon give of an assasins of the undead type vibe in hindsight? I mean Baudin and Toc both ended up in very...unique roles posthumously.

Also The Claw at their most formidable? arguably the best infiltrators. They had Laseen, topper, possum, Pearl and Kalam. We are taking these units at their strongest and there is no doubt in my mind that the best version of the Claw has Kalam among their number.

Tayschrenn would owe his allegiance to the Claw would he not? Where would we slot in Lasseens high mages? in my mind the Claw own several units like Kalam with military training so I'd consider them worth something on the battlefield.


I'd imagine the CG would have to handle both the Claw and the BH. That's a big ask. In a free for all scenario that is. The Talons might be even more effective than the Claw and the CG would be the obvious target, they were military spies by definition and they'd target the most vulnerable chain of command which in my mind is the Perish first then the CG second. lots of internal conflict to take advantage of. They'd specifically go for each named assasin, mage, or soldier on everyh side with precision. Also they have Dancer, pre-ascension. Lasseen and her entire team couldn't do him in while he defended crippled ol' Kellenved. Lets not forget they had Topper among them and Topper readily took on Cowl Magicks in Tow.

[Aptorian]

I'll repeat my above argument, Claws and Talons are not soldiers. They work in cells. You don't put them on a field and march them against another army. If you did they'd lose their advantages and get crushed by the superior tactics of a veteran army.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Apt, on 20 January 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'll repeat my above argument, Claws and Talons are not soldiers. They work in cells. You don't put them on a field and march them against another army. If you did they'd lose their advantages and get crushed by the superior tactics of a veteran army.

But is that the condition? Must they operate as a soldiery with rank and file? I like the fact that Judge Bredd isn't at all specific on how this pans out. I'm gonna play devils advocate and say if this happened, the dogs would gang up on the lion then scrap it out over whats left. I think we'd see everyone play to their strengths. what use Mages in the front-lines? why then hold that assassins must fight in the front lines aswell?

[Aptorian]

Because it's a battle. Not a skirmish. Not an ambush. Not a siege. Somebody sent them an invitation to come kill each other on grassy field next sunday. Here they are. If that is not the case then why would you even summon the army? If you have Claw problems, hire the Talons, then you will have a rooftop war instead.