[koehkont]

What about Nil and Nether with the Bonehunters? They were part of that army for 2 novels. Same with Temul by the way. And are Stormy and Gesler allowed to use their mortal sword and shield anvil connections?

I forgot Bent and Roach. They are at least similar to a hound of shadow

This post has been edited by koehkont: 20 January 2015 - 06:19 PM

[Dolmen 2.0]

Apt, on 20 January 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

Because it's a battle. Not a skirmish. Not an ambush. Not a siege. Somebody sent them an invitation to come kill each other on grassy field next sunday. Here they are. If that is not the case then why would you even summon the army? If you have Claw problems, hire the Talons, then you will have a rooftop war instead.

I see it a little differently, in my head they all got dropped, led, rerouted to some neutral area without much warning of who they'd face. you rock up as an army/troupe/Godhead/pack etc. and you fight whomever shows up on the otherside, be they assassins, soldiers, Gods. Sort of like the whole problem with the BH and the Nahruk. No one expected anything, it was just bad (God manufactured) luck, so they just fought how best they could.

I'm saying you have these groups and their mandate is to be the last group left standing. its a battle of attrition and there's no limit on how they go about winning, just that they do. Guerrilla warfare on a battlefield that's 3 dimensional would be impossible but you said it yourself. Assassins would be teleporting in and out, shifting in space and time singling out targets mid-war. I don't care how big an army you are if someone can open a door above your head and drop Y'ghattan on your head you have no more business on the battlefield than a kangaroo.

It's not about who's fit to fight on a battlefield its about how they'd go about it fit or not. The very idea of placing rules on an engagement between more than two armies and magic doesn't seem logical.

[theocean]

Apt, on 20 January 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

Bottle has demonstrated the ability to soul shift and that is all. He knows a lot but we've never seen him be particularly effective in a combat scenario.

Sinn is a good argument. I forgot about her. That makes two High Mage level battle mages. Still not enough.

I think calling Apsalar a member of the Bonehunters is cheating. She's a Bridgeburner if anything. Same with Kalam.

Gasler and Stormy are strong and durable but do you see any of the two winning a fight against the named Crimson Guard members?

Ghost form Hedge would be an interesting asset but he was flesh and blood by the time he joined the Bonehunters.

I remain convinced that The Crimson Guard absolutely crush the Bonehunters.

Consider that the ones we know of among the Crimson Guard are really impressive and dangerous. Then consider that many more Crimson Guard who were just as dangerous have died over time. They would also be in the fight. We're talking about A LOT of very dangerous named soldiers here.

The Cadre of mages surrounding Cowl alone would be really scary for an army with as little magical oomph as the Bonehunters.

Bottle has the connent to the eres'al though. Isnt that where the real force of Quick Ben came when he showed down 100 mages of the tiste Edur? it was an illusion that was made real by bottle basically. So he alone was enough to scare off 100 mages with the power of a god running through them. That seems to suggest that he has plenty of worth in a battle.

My question regarding the CG was how many were actually left when the vow was made. I dont know how many actual avowed there were.



Its hard to argue them though i guess if you count skinner and cowl in their forces. but if you count them you should also allow kalam and Apsalar into the bonehunters, which then allows you to pull 2 dragons into the bonehunters camp with apsalars pets. Is Yil a redblade or a BH?

I also never really know how strong QB is, he basically faced down a herd of Kchain and "walked" away from it. He faced down Iccy in the battle of the throne. He took on a jaghut in Daru. He calls out Gods on the regular. He makes demands of hood, he tools shadowthrone, he is a mysterious beast who IMO is second to Tay.

the problem is many of the people sort of belong to groups or armies some of the times,

This post has been edited by theocean: 20 January 2015 - 06:40 PM

[Illuyankas]

I TOO SHALL OVERTHINK THIS FUN POST FOR FUN AND SUGGEST A GROUP OF ASSASSINS ARE ACTUALLY IN FACT NOT THE SAME AS AN ARMY

[Aptorian]

Glad to hear you're on my side in this debate, Illy.

[theocean]

Illuyankas, on 20 January 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

I TOO SHALL OVERTHINK THIS FUN POST FOR FUN AND SUGGEST A GROUP OF ASSASSINS ARE ACTUALLY IN FACT NOT THE SAME AS AN ARMY

at their height how many people did each group talons or claw have in the group?

[Egwene]

Well, Bonehunters of course.

Gesler and Stormy would of course call in a rep'tileable friend or two (couldn't resist it!)

Come to think of it... the Bonehunters might have all sorts of friends turning up to help. Whereas the Crimson Guard have hired on with various people but they never seemed to be making much in the way of friends en route.

Also, when push comes to shove, the CG simply do not have anyone with as many tricks up their sleeves as Quick Ben.

Add to that the Avowed all getting a bit vague and loosing track of time...

My vote goes to the Bonehunters!

[Aptorian]

Egwene, on 20 January 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Also, when push comes to shove, the CG simply do not have anyone with as many tricks up their sleeves as Quick Ben.

Ahem.

http://forum.malazan...e__hl__greymane

[Egwene]

Apt, on 20 January 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

Egwene, on 20 January 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Also, when push comes to shove, the CG simply do not have anyone with as many tricks up their sleeves as Quick Ben.

Ahem.

http://forum.malazan...e__hl__greymane

LOL - good one

... but not good enough. Greymane, uhmmm...oh, yeah, wasn't he that guy who couldn't even run a small business... and then, in the end, he even got his sword stuck... not one for forward thinking and clever planning... and he hasn't got that sword anymore...

Sorry, but he is definitively not a trump card. You'll have to do better than him to win against the Bonehunters.

[The Hust Legion]

I think bonehunters vs CG is a damn close affair tbh. its basically QB vs cowl ( which i think QB would win but damn near die, tavore may help him here) as for the avowed i think sappers on the battlefield evens the odds a little. but then the BH have a kinda unique set of people, that i think even among the avowed of the CG would stand out in a major way. lostara, ruthan gudd,gesler,stormy could easily take on the avowed. as for the mage cadre... Sinn is kinda the embodiment of tellann isn't she? i mean with grub there i think she alone would wipe them out. also are we forgetting that the BH for a short while did fight the nahruk. and i don't think the CG could have done much better. and moranth munitions...
but its a very close call, but personally i just like the BH. so I'm gonna go with them winning, they are stubborn bastards.

[theocean]

I think the trump cards are the fringe people. The BH are tough to decide who are actual members. Mainly Apsalar. If you have her on your side its basically the same as having Cotillion on your team. Are the redblades considered BH? Is Pearl part of the bonehunters? T'Amber is a god damn force. Then on the other side you have the disavowed. Does Skinner get to use his magic armour. Is Cowl in his right mind. Are you getting Lether and Storm wall iron bars or bitch ass Assail Iron bars. I think numbers is a big thing too, i think the bonehunters at their peak far outnumber the CG, at least i believe so, guess thats hard to actually know since we know little of the early on CG.



Are we in agreement the Dujeks host would walk through all others. BridgeBurners and all.

[Aptorian]

Nope. The bridgeburners were fighting the Crimson Guard tooth and nail in places like Nathilog. The Crimson Guard has historically been the biggest threat against the Empire because they posses the skill, knowledge and power to stand up against Malaz armies.

Think about the way the Crimson Guard are mentioned in the books. Think of the feats we have seen them perform. They are every bit as capable as the Malazan armies and navies. In a sense you could say that the Crimson Guard are a product of the Malazan Empire and vice versa.

And on top of this you have the fact that the Avowed are each one of them much more powerful than your average grunt.

[theocean]

Apt, on 21 January 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

Nope. The bridgeburners were fighting the Crimson Guard tooth and nail in places like Nathilog. The Crimson Guard has historically been the biggest threat against the Empire because they posses the skill, knowledge and power to stand up against Malaz armies.

Think about the way the Crimson Guard are mentioned in the books. Think of the feats we have seen them perform. They are every bit as capable as the Malazan armies and navies. In a sense you could say that the Crimson Guard are a product of the Malazan Empire and vice versa.

And on top of this you have the fact that the Avowed are each one of them much more powerful than your average grunt.

But didnt they also have Broods army and the Tiste helping out with that?

Yes without the malazans there would be no vow and thus no avowed, so the malazans are the reasons we have avowed.

Im by no means trying to belittle the CG or hint that they are pushovers. They were defeated though by the malazans (not sure who it was) and that why they made the Vow. I dont know which branch it was that actually took over Kaaz lands but i think the dujeks host is the baddest malazan group put together.

I liked the CG much more when all you heard was the rumours about them. I thought Assail hurt their badassness in my eyes, they did some awesome things in the book... but i think that book dropped them a little in my book.

I want the old Iron Bars back. I want the badasses who were in Daru to protect the ring bearer. I want the skinner who took on daseem. I want the skinner that is hunted by the seguleh 2nd.

They just seemed so much more badass when you just heard the rumplings or saw a single group of them.

This post has been edited by theocean: 21 January 2015 - 03:06 PM

[Sheve]

The Malazan empire had to use its full might to drive the CG out of Stratem.
And i think that The Emperor, Tay , Dancer, Dassem and friends are a bit more powerful then the Bonehunters.

[melonhead]

We cant forget about Skulldeath and the like. Yes the avowed has some seriously skilled fighters, but the BH do as well. Skulldeath would be sailing over their heads, leaving bodies in his wake