[Egwene]

I did wonder if the German translator was your source, Puck. Looked at the forum sometime ago and saw some of the discussions about the translation of names, in fact, it led me to create this: http://de.malazan.wi...%C3%B6tter_Wiki

It would be great if you could post the link on the German forum and maybe get some people interested in contributing. For some reason I can't register on the site - keeps telling me my e-mail address isn't valid. Anyway, the A-Z of German/English translations is already quite comprehensive and maybe of use to some.

Back to the topic:

I have changed the Wiki entry to reflect the ambiguity of the little we know. Hope it's an accurate reflection of the point Worry made about Whiskeyjack not being a prophet. Plus, the link to this thread gives readers a chance to make up their own mind

I am thinking that it is actually more likely that Iskar Jarak is Whiskeyjack's real name and that the latter was the nickname given to him by some Malazan Sergeant upon hearing it.

A bit more speculation... How much do we know about where he came from? Fiddler is supposed to be Falari, but he says he was born in an alley on Malaz. I guess parents might be first generation Falari... but does that mean he and WJ met on Malaz? In which case maybe WJ's family, too, where immigrants, only coming to the Island from Seven Cities. If so, it is quite plausible that he was given the nickname Whiskeyjack during adolescents, before even joining the army.

[worry]

Not to be contentious (I'm not a big ol' meanie like Puck! ) but I want to make my point clear:

I don't know how to emphasize this enough: I don't think it's particularly ambiguous. My position, and I think the text supports this, is that it is virtually impossible to conclude that WJ's real name is Iskar Jarak and those words by sheer coincidence mean "Iron Prophet" in the Anibar language. It is entirely more likely that they mishear Whiskeyjack as Iskar Jarak and attribute abilities unto him in tandem with their naive inferences about the information he's bringing them (ie that it's a "prophecy"). Everything the Anibar believe about him is wrong, which is emphasized by the fact that they believe he's a king and also their total misinterpretation of the "burning bridge", as expressed by Boatfinder (Samar Dev is questioning him, she's not the source of the info). I'm not saying there's incontrovertible 100% certainty about WJ's origins, but I see no reason to conclude that WJ is a Seven Cities native named Iskar Jarak who found his way into the Malazan army.

[Puck]

If I were so inclined, I'd ask you to marry me, worry. Failing that, have some rep. Again. I bow before your ability to succinctly put into words what I am trying to get across.

If one has to construe an entire paragraph of possibly-maybe-could-be-ifs to explain something that can be explained in a few words based on evidence and without involving any brain acrobatics, personally, I tend to with the latter choice.

Whiskeyjack is not from Seven Cities. There is no arguing about that. But I shall leave it at that.

As to the wiki, I could post the link to it on the german forum, but don't hope for much, as the forum is pretty much dead.

[D'rek]

I'm, like, 94% sure WJ is Falari. And if he isn't, he's a Malaz islander.

I concur with WW+Puck above, and think Whiskeyjack -> Iskar Jarak is about the same as Malazan -> Mezla. Legitimizing the theory on the wiki is just paving the way for having to put that darn "Dancer and Laseen are the same person and also in love" theory that made just as little sense.

[Egwene]

Hold your horses everyone...

I am not trying to legitimize any theory on the wiki, I am trying to establish what is known, what is speculation and what is incorrect editing on the Wiki.

I looked at the edit about Whiskeyjack being Iskar Jarak on the Wiki (which was made in 2009!) and could not remember that from the books. I felt that it was important enough that if it was so, it really should have a source reference. I posted my OP to get enough information to validate/correct etc. what was there and that is still what I am trying to establish.

Puck, not sure that your categorical statement about Whiskeyjack definitely not being from Seven Cities is anymore supported in writing than that he is definitely Iskar Jarak.

@ Worry: how would you phrase the section about WJ/ Anibar? It should contain only the facts as far as they can be corroborated by book references. For speculations over and above we could have a separate section at the bottom of the Wiki page.

It would be great if people could give me some book and chapter references for any supporting info

[worry]

Phrasing is for WikiMen and WikiWomen to decide. I would say at minimum the language should make explicit that all speculation about WJ in this scene are the Anibar's tribal beliefs (as reported by Boatfinder) about Whiskeyjack. In addition, It should definitely not say that Samar Dev "revealed" anything, because she was just piecing together Boatfinder's story, sometimes by listening to him and other times by prompting him with her own speculation. The emphasis should really be on the fact that all of Boatfinder's information is a folktale that's at least a generation removed.

I was using the book on Google Books for this, so pg. 393-395 from whatever version they use.

[worry]

In other words, Boatfinder is telling Karsa and Samar "The Legend of Iskar Jarak", a mysterious king who came from the Mezla but stopped the Mezla's slaughter and saved their people. I've really hesitated in using the word "primitive" because it has several tons of (well-deserved) baggage, but I will use it now only to describe the Anibars' understanding of who Whiskeyjack was, both at their first encounter and since then in mythologizing him (which started almost immediately anyway).

[D'rek]

Let's add some more bits:


--Dunsparrow says she is born "in Quon Tali" (could be anywhere in the continent). Her father was killed outside Quon (presumably more specifically the province/city)

--Fiddler wonders what the heck Dunsparrow is doing out in Y'Ghatan, which would not be all that weird for a 7C native to be assigned to a garrison there

--Quick Ben to Fiddler: "me and Kalam, we only met her once, in Malaz City. But you, you were like her uncle" - if Fiddler is a Malaz islander (or even Falari) how was he like an uncle to Dunsparrow?

--while it isn't directly said, there's stuff like Kalam in the flashback to the formation of the Bridgeburners explaining a local tea's effects to WJ, and then WJ saying "I know, the Empire's been on this damn continent long enough to learn a few things" or something like that. Why would Kalam think to explain it if WJ looked like he was from 7C himself?

[Egwene]

Having re-read the section from tBH (Chapter 12 UK MMPB p.590/591, 594/595) as well as the section from Toll the Hounds where Hood send the Army of the Dead off to fight (TtH, Chapter 22, UK HB p.837) and listened to the comments here, I made some changes to the Wiki. I would be grateful for any feedback.

Not on the Wiki, but my own thoughts...

I guess that being worshipped under the name 'Iskar Jarak' would create the Ascendant under that name, explaining why he was called that by Hood.

There is an oddity in what Boatfinder says. He mentions that Iskar Jarak came to them in the frozen time of the past, i.e. the past of the past, so likely meaning quite a long time ago, however, he also says that Iskar Jarak's kingdom is of the unfound time, that is the future. In the light of Iskar Jarak now being send on errands by Hood, I am wondering if rather than 'the old Whiskeyjack', the Iron Prophet isn't the post-ascending Whiskeyjack all along. In which case, prophecy probably is within his capabilities. (The description 'with a hundred dark warriors' seems a bit odd, too)

I still think it unlikely that Whiskeyjack was his birth-name, in which case, Iskar Jarak could be his original name from which Whiskeyjack was derived. If it wasn't for the Anibar story mudding the waters...

@D'rek: Fiddler is Falari, isn't he? Anyway, had his and Whiskejack's parents emigrated to Malaz Island, the children would likely still be called natives of wherever the families came from. However, I don't think we have anything for Whiskeyjack to pinpoint his families origins, do we? Where could the assumption of Iskar Jarak being a Seven Cities name come from? Or is it simply the result of a Chinese whisper... i.e. 'the name he used in 7C' turned into 'his 7C name'?! I have seen that sort of problem more than once on the Wiki. One has to remember that for a lot of wiki as well as forum members English is a second language and sometimes this is the sort of thing that 'happens in translation'.

[Egwene]

Puck, on 12 February 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

As to the wiki, I could post the link to it on the german forum, but don't hope for much, as the forum is pretty much dead.

Shame about that, although, I am not surprised. Having the books come out so long after the originals and split in two... I am guessing, most fans have gone over to the English editions and this forum.

[Puck]

Egwene, on 13 February 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

I guess that being worshipped under the name 'Iskar Jarak' would create the Ascendant under that name, explaining why he was called that by Hood.

That's what people, especially and most clearly worry, have been telling you since day one of this thread. That's likely the reason he's using that name instead of Whiskeyjack after ascending. That does in no way make it any kind of real name, 'real name' here meaning 'the name he was born with'.

Egwene, on 13 February 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

I still think it unlikely that Whiskeyjack was his birth-name, in which case, Iskar Jarak could be his original name from which Whiskeyjack was derived. If it wasn't for the Anibar story mudding the waters...

It wasn't. Braven Tooth named him Whiskeyjack:

Quote

Strings was silent for a long moment. Braven Tooth – he was dumbfounded. The bastard was grizzled back when… when the whole naming thing began. It had been Braven who'd started it. Braven who'd named most of the Bridgeburners. Whiskeyjack. Trotts, Mallet, Hedge, Blend, Picker, Toes… […]
[HoC, Ch. 5, sorry, don't have page numbers at hand]

Presumably, and here's where I admit that I am neither sure nor can prove it, the name came from Whiskeyjack stealing Dunsparrow from Hood's temple when she was newborn. The story must've come out at some point, leading to Braven Tooth's naming of Whiskeyjack after a bird that steals stuff, leading in turn to the Moranth calling him Bird-That-Steals, clueing us in that, yes, Whiskeyjack is not just a random word but refers back to the bird of that name.

We do not know his real name or what name he went by before Braven Tooth. Anything we can find in the books speaks against Iskar Jarak being his real name. And, frankly, I don't get the obsession with shoe-horning Iskar Jarak into Whiskeyjack's real name. Why? We don't know it, so be it.

Egwene, on 13 February 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

@D'rek: Fiddler is Falari, isn't he? Anyway, had his and Whiskejack's parents emigrated to Malaz Island, the children would likely still be called natives of wherever the families came from. However, I don't think we have anything for Whiskeyjack to pinpoint his families origins, do we? Where could the assumption of Iskar Jarak being a Seven Cities name come from? Or is it simply the result of a Chinese whisper... i.e. 'the name he used in 7C' turned into 'his 7C name'?! I have seen that sort of problem more than once on the Wiki. One has to remember that for a lot of wiki as well as forum members English is a second language and sometimes this is the sort of thing that 'happens in translation'.

Indeed, we don't really have anything to pinpoint Whiskeyjack's birthplace - not that I can remember, anyway - more specifically than 'continent of Quon Tali'. Going by his physical description it's unlikely to have been Dal Hon, Itko Kan, and more likely to have been Unta, Quon Tali (the city), Cawn, or anything else alon g that belt, though most likely Malaz Island, but we do not know for sure. However, if Whiskeyjack or his parents had any Seven Cities origin, I have a feeling someone would've commented on either that or his looking like a Seven Cities native. Nobody ever does. Ever, and not even you can argue against that.

Where does the assumption come from Iskar Jarak is a Seven Cities name? From the very first quote I provided on that matter. How does Toc know? Well, how about speaking both the official malazan language and whatever language gets spoken in Seven Cities? The pronounciations are bound to be different, for someone who knows various languages it's very much possible to hear from the pronounciation where a word/name comes from. English being my fourth language, mind you, but I'm still pretty confident in my abilities and as such 'the name he used in 7C' sounds pretty interchangeable for me with 'his 7C name'
Also, naturally, some things will get misinterpreted whether the poster's mother tongue is english or not, but let's be honest here, if several people, most of whose mother tongue is english, tell you they can agree that one interpretation is wrong, then that's likely to be the case, no?

This post has been edited by Puck: 13 February 2015 - 12:48 PM

[D'rek]

Puck, on 13 February 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

but let's be honest here, if several people, most of whose mother tongue is english, tell you they can agree that one interpretation is wrong, then that's likely to be the case, no?

Well... no... see: two undead dragons in TtH, anything to do with the Silanda timeline, Dassem Ultor's eye colour... there's been more than a few cases of the widely believed interpretation being wrong. That's what the forum is for, after all! Nothing wrong with exploring an idea that goes against popular belief!

[Egwene]

I'll try and address the points you have made, Puck:

That's what people, especially and most clearly worry, have been telling you since day one of this thread. That's likely the reason he's using that name instead of Whiskeyjack after ascending. That does in no way make it any kind of real name, 'real name' here meaning 'the name he was born with'.

No, neither does it do the opposite. I don't want to exchange one speculation for another. The phrase 'he's using' implies a choice. My point was partly (not well put I admit) that going by the name Iskar Jarak in Hood's realm was not so much a choice by Whiskeyjack but the result of him having acquired worshippers under that name along the way. By the way, it is Hood who calls him by that name, we do not hear Whiskeyjack calling himself anything at all - the latter point could support either argument.

It wasn't. Braven Tooth named him Whiskeyjack:

I thought so, too, but didn't have time to dig out the reference and without that... I would have been making just a definite statement from memory. The very thing I am trying to eliminate on the Wiki. Memories are fickle.

Your theory about the theft of Dunsparrow... the way Fiddler told the story to Quick Ben does not sit well with something that might have come out later. It sounded more like Fiddler breaking the official secrets act. But it's an interesting one anyway.

We do not know his real name or what name he went by before Braven Tooth. Anything we can find in the books speaks against Iskar Jarak being his real name. And, frankly, I don't get the obsession with shoe-horning Iskar Jarak into Whiskeyjack's real name. Why? We don't know it, so be it.

Well, guess in this case your obsession happens to be opposite to mine. No harm done, having either.

...and not even you can argue against that.

I have no intention of arguing against anything. I am raising questions to establish what the facts are. I am also sharing my own speculations apart from the Wiki quest, because speculating on one's own is pretty boring - isn't that what we are all doing?

Where does the assumption come from Iskar Jarak is a Seven Cities name? From the very first quote I provided on that matter. How does Toc know? Well, how about speaking both the official malazan language and whatever language gets spoken in Seven Cities?

Sorry, I hadn't been back to the beginning and the info about the 7C connection had slipped my mind. Having said that, I refer you back to my reply to your initial post. The quote only proves that it is a 7C name and that prior to this, Toc did not know that name in conjunction with Whiskeyjack. Nothing more, nothing less.

The pronounciations are bound to be different, for someone who knows various languages it's very much possible to hear from the pronounciation where a word/name comes from. English being my fourth language, mind you, but I'm still pretty confident in my abilities and as such 'the name he used in 7C' sounds pretty interchangeable for me with 'his 7C name'

English being my seventh language, ok, four of the others are pretty rusty in places, still, I think I am qualified to talk about what can brew in translation. 'The name he used in 7C' puts the spotlight on the person and implies very strongly that the name is used by that person as a user name and is not necessarily the person's real one. Saying 'his 7C name' puts the emphasis on an attribute of the name, i.e. it being a 7C one rather than one from a different region. Without contextual evidence to the contrary, the second implies the person to be from 7C. Taken literally, the two phrases are worlds apart. Yes, they might be used to describe the same, but to someone with a limited grasp of English or someone who reads something literally for other reasons, there is a huge difference between how the two are perceived. When that person than edits the Wiki, what was a maybe can turn into a fact.

..if several people, most of whose mother tongue is english, tell you they can agree that one interpretation is wrong, then that's likely to be the case, no?

Well, 'everyone says so' or 'does so' were never strong enough arguments to convince me of anything and as D'rek was (almost) saying, things aren't always what they seem in the Malazan world.

My own summary:

Iskar Jarack/Whiskeyjack is probably a chicken and egg question. Whiskeyjack came first in the books, then SE tried to give him a background story - or the story was there all along in their roleplaying and was just waiting to be slotted in once the character was established - or seeing the popularity of Whiskeyjack, the name Iskar Jarak was just a means of keeping him going. None of it tells us for definite whom SE means Whiskeyjack to be.


Again, please do take a look at how I have edited the Wiki. I am trying to accurately reflect what the facts are and really have absolutely no interest in furthering one speculation over another. My only aim is for any user to get information as accurate as possible. Anyone following the link to this thread should also get enough of a feel for the speculation side of things on top of that.

This post has been edited by Egwene: 13 February 2015 - 07:10 PM