[galeofreaper]

Soo... I was thinking about who would win in a fight if every non-magic sword/other weapon fighter were pitted against each other. I came up with a list of ten and I can make solid arguments for every single one so tell me what you think.
Here they are in no order in particular:

Dassem Ultor
Karsa Orlong
Icarium
Trull Sengar
Anomander Rake
Cotillion
Apsalar
Whiskeyjack
Bryce Beddict
Kalam Mekhar
Onos T'oolan
Also the Seguleh first, even though we never meet him in person, he could hypothetically fuck up all these fools.

Please feel free to tell me if I'm missing someone important or there is somebody I should add to the poll.

This post has been edited by galeofreaper: 27 November 2014 - 06:01 AM

[Gothos]

I'd say it would be a contest between Jan (Seguleh Second, Orb Sceptre Throne), Anomandaris and Osserc, with Osserc being the wild card here and only based on his many run-ins and stalemates with Rake that are mentioned.
I don't want to go into spoiler territory, but spoilers for OST and TTH:

Spoiler

Both Jan and Anomandaris set Dassem up for killing them with great skill. I wouldn't say anyone else would be able to dance with Dassem like that.
Karsa has straight out said it would be foolish to get between Dassem and Rake. Tool was seriously losing to Mok, Seguleh Third. These guys are
a league of their own it seems.

[Soulcrusher]

I'd say it would be between Rake and Icarium, Rake because he's come up againt a fair few ascendants and is still around, Icaruim because he is basically unstoppable once he gets going ^^

[Andorion]

And this thread, like all the threads before it runs into the same problem: Do you judge by skill alone, or do ascendant/magical powers also play a role? Every thread I have seen which asks a question like this encounters the same problem. This is one exampleNo Warren Fighters

Also this Badass Malazan

[Saitama]

Rake, no contest. God-mode Dassem is as good as it gets with a sword, and (in my opinion) Anomander is still slightly better. He is so ridiculously well-rounded that it is wrong to think about him in the 'swordsman' category. For all intents and purposes, he is a nuclear warhead that happens to hold a sword in its hand.

That, and his duel with Dassem went according to his (rather specific) plan. Maneuvering your opponent in a serious fight would be almost impossible if both combatants were equal (we're talking really, really small differences, but still). And Rake relying on luck when so much is at stake? Not possible.

I don't consider Icarium a proper fighter. All hulk-like creatures are boring. Besides, being angry is not a skill.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

Saitama, on 27 November 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Rake, no contest. God-mode Dassem is as good as it gets with a sword, and (in my opinion) Anomander is still slightly better. He is so ridiculously well-rounded that it is wrong to think about him in the 'swordsman' category. For all intents and purposes, he is a nuclear warhead that happens to hold a sword in its hand.

That, and his duel with Dassem went according to his (rather specific) plan. Maneuvering your opponent in a serious fight would be almost impossible if both combatants were equal (we're talking really, really small differences, but still). And Rake relying on luck when so much is at stake? Not possible.

I don't consider Icarium a proper fighter. All hulk-like creatures are boring. Besides, being angry is not a skill.

Try telling The Hulk that!

[Saitama]

Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai, on 28 November 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Try telling The Hulk that!

No problem, all I need is a boombox blasting Enya songs at full power

[Jaime Lannister]

Silchas Ruin is conspicuously absent from your list. Given his performance against Trull, I'd hazard he's superior to Icarium with the sword.

Reaper's Gale:

Spoiler

Quote

And all at once the Betrayer's swords wove a skein of singing iron, parrying the spear's every lightning thrust and sweep. And suddenly Trull Sengar's advance stalled, and then he was being driven back, as those swords, hammering the shaft of his spear, tore away bronze sheathing, began splintering the wood.

And Trull Sengar recognized, before him, his own death.

Onrack the Broken saw his friend's attack fail, saw the fight turn, and saw that Trull Sengar was doomed to fall.

Trull Sengar's spear exploded in the warrior's hands. A sword lashed out—

And this was after Trull delivered a sucker punch of sorts to Ruin, before he drew his swords -- where he cut the base of his throat and punctured his shoulder muscle.

Trull could offer little resistance before Silchas's onslaught -- even after weakening him by taking him unawares -- yet managed to stymie a top condition Icarium for some time.


Rake is the best, with SIlchas/Dassem a very close tie for second, I think.

This post has been edited by Jaime Lannister: 29 July 2015 - 04:33 PM

[Maark Abbott]

Lan obvvvvvvvvs

[theocean]

I still want to know what happened in the Rake/Draconus fight, i hope we get to see that play out in the trilogy.

[Andorion]

Dassem ended OST by becoming the Seguleh First which means he is at the apex of the Seguleh. Rake could only reach 7th. So for what its worth I think Dassem is a better swordsman than Rake

I think Icarium should not be counted as a swordsman. He is a force of nature, a portla into Chaos as I believe Calm the FA said in TCG. He destroys through raw power, not skill. Which is what makes Trull's standing up to him so impressive.

As for Trull vs SIlchas Ruin, Silchas is an ascendant. Trull is not. Even wounding an Ascendant in a face to face battle is impressive.

[Jaime Lannister]

Andorion, on 30 July 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

Dassem ended OST by becoming the Seguleh First which means he is at the apex of the Seguleh. Rake could only reach 7th. So for what its worth I think Dassem is a better swordsman than Rake

It wasn't that Rake could not pass the 7th, it was that he was fighting Seguleh, without surcease, since his arrival on the Island and became tired and disinclined to continue once he reached the 7th. It's possible that he left because he could not beat the 6th, but if so that's only because he fought a least a score other (presumably high ranking) Seguleh before him/her.

Quote

Anomander Rake once crossed blades with a score of Seguleh, one after the other. He'd paid an unannounced visit to the island—knowing nothing of the inhabitants. Taking human form and fashioning a mask for himself, he elected to walk down the city's main thoroughfare. Being naturally arrogant, he showed no deference to any who crossed his path…

Two bells. That was the full duration of Rake's visit to the island and its people. He described the ferocity of that short time, and his dismay and exhaustion which led him to withdraw into his warren if only to slow the hammering of his heart.

Defeating a score of Seguleh one after another, including ones as highly ranked as the 7th, and having only a hammering heart to show for it is incredible.

Dassem was conferred the mask without fighting any of the high raking Seguleh. Not to mention by the time he received it, a number of the most formidable Seguleh were out of commission -- Jan, who was second, and comfortably stronger than anyone else at that juncture, and Mok, who was broken by the Pannion War, but who's growing prowess was considered so credible a threat to the First that he was sent away. I don't doubt that Dassem's the strongest Seguleh presently alive, but he remains untested against the best of the them (Jan, Mok, former First).

And for what it's worth, Envy also thought Rake superior to Mok with the sword -- not sure how credible her views are on this matter, though.

And I wasn't trying to deflate Trull's prowess with that earlier point, only noting that Silchas had a demonstrably superior performance than did Icarium against him.


As for Rake vs Dassem, I'm in the camp that believes Rake to be superior, if only because he could so perfectly orchestrate his defeat against him.

This post has been edited by Jaime Lannister: 30 July 2015 - 02:15 AM

[Andorion]

Jaime Lannister, on 30 July 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

Andorion, on 30 July 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

Dassem ended OST by becoming the Seguleh First which means he is at the apex of the Seguleh. Rake could only reach 7th. So for what its worth I think Dassem is a better swordsman than Rake

It wasn't that Rake could not pass the 7th, it was that he was fighting Seguleh, without surcease, since his arrival on the Island and became tired and disinclined to continue once he reached the 7th. It's possible that he left because he could not beat the 6th, but if so that's only because he fought a least a score other (presumably high ranking) Seguleh before him/her.

Quote

Anomander Rake once crossed blades with a score of Seguleh, one after the other. He'd paid an unannounced visit to the island—knowing nothing of the inhabitants. Taking human form and fashioning a mask for himself, he elected to walk down the city's main thoroughfare. Being naturally arrogant, he showed no deference to any who crossed his path…

Two bells. That was the full duration of Rake's visit to the island and its people. He described the ferocity of that short time, and his dismay and exhaustion which led him to withdraw into his warren if only to slow the hammering of his heart.

Defeating a score of Seguleh one after another, including ones as highly ranked as the 7th, and having only a hammering heart to show for it is incredible.

Dassem was conferred the mask without fighting any of the high raking Seguleh. Not to mention by the time he received it, a number of the most formidable Seguleh were out of commission -- Jan, who was second, and comfortably stronger than anyone else at that juncture, and Mok, who was broken by the Pannion War, but who's growing prowess was considered so credible a threat to the First that he was sent away. I don't doubt that Dassem's the strongest Seguleh presently alive, but he remains untested against the best of the them (Jan, Mok, former First).

And for what it's worth, Envy also thought Rake superior to Mok with the sword -- not sure how credible her views are on this matter, though.

And I wasn't trying to deflate Trull's prowess with that earlier point, only noting that Silchas had a demonstrably superior performance than did Icarium against him.


As for Rake vs Dassem, I'm in the camp that believes Rake to be superior, if only because he could so perfectly orchestrate his defeat against him.

I have always thought that if Rake had timed/planned his Seguleh visit better he could probably have been in the top 3. He is an incredible swordman, no doubt about that, but I think Dassem is a tiny bit better than him. I base this on all the descriptions of Dassems sword technique. Most of the time, he doesn't even seem to move his sword, bystanders think its a gesture or a shrug when its a killing stroke. I don't think Rake has that kind of speed.

But to counterbalance this, you have the TtH fight, where Rake fought with a Dragnipur weighed down by Hood and the army of the dead and still managed to fix the fight.

I think its one of those Malazan things that are meant to remain undecided.

My point with Icarium was that he shouldn't be in a fighter/swordsman thread. He isn't a fighter/swordsman. The same standards and references don't apply to him.

[NefaraisBredd]

Wtf? No Kallor? He beat Spinnok durav for eff sakes! Wait a minute, no Spinnok or Andarist either! Not to mention Tool! For shame! I would also expect Iron Bars and Skinner to be there....

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 10 September 2015 - 12:03 AM

[Andorion]

NefaraisBredd, on 10 September 2015 - 12:01 AM, said:

Wtf? No Kallor? He beat Spinnok durav for eff sakes! Wait a minute, no Spinnok or Andarist either! Not to mention Tool! For shame! I would also expect Iron Bars and Skinner to be there....

There are lots of threads like this and it isn't definitive by any means. Dig around in General Book topics and you can find almost anything

[worry]

And once you get to the bottom, keep digging anyway. You'll eventually find the dark side.

[NefaraisBredd]

Not sure if a person can dig any deeper than Kallor, lol

[Jaime Lannister]

NefaraisBredd, on 10 September 2015 - 12:01 AM, said:

Wtf? No Kallor? He beat Spinnok durav for eff sakes! Wait a minute, no Spinnok or Andarist either! Not to mention Tool! For shame! I would also expect Iron Bars and Skinner to be there....

tbf, there are character(s) demonstrably superior to pretty much all of those characters you mentioned, so I don't think they should merit placement in the options here -- since the question seeks our opinion on who the absolute best is

Dassem has handily defeated Kallor (Spinnock is out by virtue of this) and Skinner, Mok comfortably beat Tool and Iron Bars was barely on par with a relatively low ranked Seguleh etc.

[NefaraisBredd]

Touche! Well said. When did Daszem defeat Kallor? I do not remember reading that. Rake never moved against him either in spite of many implied threats. Kallor sneered at many gods before Dassem showed up. Also, didnt Rake send his best man to slow Kallor down because he knew that Kallor was a rank mofo who was the most likely to be ABLE to actually take advantage of the situation? They dropped a GOD on him for eff sakes!! 3 elder Azathanai could only curse him, not defeat him. Just saying man.

[worry]

RotCG.