[Nicodimas]

Studlock, on 23 January 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

And I don't get my jollies from bashing America, I honestly believe America is one of the biggest perpetrator of injustice in a global sense but also upon it's own citizens. I know it might be hard to believe for a true patriot like yourself but I don't think America is the greatest country in the world. I'm sorry that makes you cry the red, white, and blue. Salute (the slavery, the genocide, the oppression, the segregation, the rape culture, the bombs, and all the dead brown bodies that made the glorious 50 states possible)!

Do you have statistical data that proves this be true? I am not trying to bash your viewpoint, really, I am just quite curious if this is a perception you have learned via the Media Vs Hard facts? Where did you come upon this viewpoint.

I mean lets take a step back and look at Human Nature is what I am getting at:
http://www.scaruffi....s/massacre.html

I just grabbed this for reference, not really fact checking, for you think about the nature of war and amount of conflict in the world.

[amphibian]

There's 40 years between the war for independence vs. Britain and the real heyday of Manifest Destiny and westward expansion. The same leaders weren't in control the entire time, so it had to be a sort of general belief that was pre-existing (in my view).

I'd be interested in reading the article. I'm also aware that you've criticized Canada for its past and current crimes and obnoxiousness - which is a right thing to do and necessary for actual forward progress.

[Aptorian]

I am not quite as rabid as Studlock came off in that post but it cannot be ignored that America directly or indirectly has had an influence on many of the conflicts throughout the second and third world. In many of the conflicts on that list America has a finger in the pie. America's foreign policies are meant to benefit American interests, not necessarily the countries in which America has interest.

America has toppled democratic governments, it has assassinated political leaders, it sells weapons to bad people and lets not forget the fact that you're, I am guessing here, the only "First world" country that sanctions and defends the use of torture upon both non-combatants and soldiers who by the right of the Geneva code are protected from such treatment.

That's not to say that the rest of us are wonderful, Denmark has a shitty reputation for isolating prisoners for example, how ever when Americas government acts like an asshole, it does it on a whole other level.

This post has been edited by Apt: 23 January 2015 - 07:24 PM

[Studlock]

It's was in the stacks in a book of collected essay's so I'll have to look up the authors, title, and publication for you Amp. Might be a few days though

@Nicodimas the measurement of injustice isn't only be measured in bodies (though to be sure America is where it is today because to climb atop the bodies of black and brown people, as well as white women, these aren't refutable facts hence salute that blood soaked glorious flag). America is currently at the center of economic system and culture hegemony that promotes global suffering and perpetual poverty and inequality of not just populations but entire countries. This is not to mention the present regression in terms of women's right to their bodies, the crime that is War on Drugs, or just straight up doming dudes because there black back at home. America is not a 'good guy' anymore than any other massive geopolitical power is. American can and often do contribute greatly to society. I'm of the opinion that America is the largest concentration of knowledge and innovation to ever be assemble. But as a nation-state it's hands have been dipped in the red for so long as to turn purple and wrinkled.

P.S. I giggle every time I read your posts because I have to read it in the slow Texas drawl that Rust has. Cracks me up.

[Nicodimas]

Apt, on 23 January 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

I am not quite as rabid as Studlock came off in that post but it cannot be ignored that America directly or indirectly has had an influence on many of the conflicts throughout the second and third world. In many of the conflicts on that list America has a finger in the pie. America's foreign policies are meant to benefit American interests, not necessarily countries in which America has interest.

America has toppled democratic governments, it has assassinated political leaders, it sells weapons to bad people and lets not forget the fact that you're, I am guessing here, the only "First world" country that sanctions and defends the use of torture upon both non-combatants and soldiers who by the right of the Geneva code are protected from such treatment.

That's not to say that the rest of us are wonderful, Denmark has a shitty reputation for isolating prisoners for example, how ever when Americas government acts like an asshole, it does it on a whole other level.

Studlock, on 23 January 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

It's was in the stacks in a book of collected essay's so I'll have to look up the authors, title, and publication for you Amp. Might be a few days though

@Nicodimas the measurement of injustice isn't only be measured in bodies (though to be sure America is where it is today because to climb atop the bodies of black and brown people, as well as white women, these aren't refutable facts hence salute that blood soaked glorious flag). America is currently at the center of economic system and culture hegemony that promotes global suffering and perpetual poverty and inequality of not just populations but entire countries. This is not to mention the present regression in terms of women's right to their bodies, the crime that is War on Drugs, or just straight up doming dudes because there black back at home. America is not a 'good guy' anymore than any other massive geopolitical power is. American can and often do contribute greatly to society. I'm of the opinion that America is the largest concentration of knowledge and innovation to ever be assemble. But as a nation-state it's hands have been dipped in the red for so long as to turn purple and wrinkled.

P.S. I giggle every time I read your posts because I have to read it in the slow Texas drawl that Rust has. Cracks me up.

I am not saying he is wrong. I am merely asking for the reflection of is it the State that seems to cause these problems, or We the people. In America, the people were supposed to be given the power and entrust it to their/our electives. The people give the government the power. Therefore, pinning it on the State, seems to be a...the wrong direction. To really move foward, we must share the blame of the state somehow.

If you are going argue against the State actions, you need argue against making the State so powerful as the people.


@ Stud. I am really grasping the situation of economic inequality in the last year. The people that push this are traitors of humanity as a whole. Many reside here, it's pushed through the Stock Markets, and the Financialization of obligations. However, these people hold no regard to other people, they are vermin, but they are *multi-trillionaires*. Follow the money. If the rule of law was upheld in any area in America, they would have went to Jail in 08-09.

(However a Hedge Fund manager can lose 99.8% of someones money and walk away, however if a common folk fails their job this badly--they can go to jail)

Ok I went rant mode...huh.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 23 January 2015 - 08:23 PM

[Terez]

Nicodimas, on 23 January 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

I am not saying he is wrong. I am merely asking for the reflection of is it the State that seems to cause these problems, or We the people. In America, the people were supposed to be given the power and entrust it to their/our electives. The people give the government the power. Therefore, pinning it on the State, seems to be a...the wrong direction. To really move foward, we must share the blame of the state somehow.

If you are going argue against the State actions, you need argue against making the State so powerful as the people.

The power resides neither with the state nor the "people". Money is power, and the number of people who count are steady consolidating and dwindling in number, much like corporate America itself.

Nicodimas, on 23 January 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

@ Stud. I am really grasping the situation of economic inequality in the last year. The people that push this are traitors of humanity as a whole. Many reside here, it's pushed through the Stock Markets, and the Financialization of obligations.

Dylan Ratigan called it "extraction". I can't think of a better way of putting it.

[Terez]

If you had linked it, maybe we would have. I read an article on that case when the story broke; I didn't find it to be a very compelling example of police bias, therefore I don't feel compelled to watch the video. No one else on this thread has made a big deal of that case either.

[Gust Hubb]

This: http://www.bbc.com/n...-india-31450643

I am actually kind of scared of our police force and other governmental agencies. My main concern is if anyone hates me or my wife, they can accuse us of something (much like the random suspicious person call put out on that poor Indian man) and the police/government will swoop in. You hear of stories of parents who temporarily lose their kids while a charge is being investigated, and that is what I worry about, not being able to protect my kids from those that are supposed to be protecting me. I run into stories like this every so often and they make me sick with worry.

[Nicodimas]

Gust Hubb, on 13 February 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

This: http://www.bbc.com/n...-india-31450643

I am actually kind of scared of our police force and other governmental agencies. My main concern is if anyone hates me or my wife, they can accuse us of something (much like the random suspicious person call put out on that poor Indian man) and the police/government will swoop in. You hear of stories of parents who temporarily lose their kids while a charge is being investigated, and that is what I worry about, not being able to protect my kids from those that are supposed to be protecting me. I run into stories like this every so often and they make me sick with worry.

You should read about Matt Dehart, this is from the Feds..

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Matt_DeHart

[Silencer]

Gust Hubb, on 13 February 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

This: http://www.bbc.com/n...-india-31450643

I am actually kind of scared of our police force and other governmental agencies. My main concern is if anyone hates me or my wife, they can accuse us of something (much like the random suspicious person call put out on that poor Indian man) and the police/government will swoop in. You hear of stories of parents who temporarily lose their kids while a charge is being investigated, and that is what I worry about, not being able to protect my kids from those that are supposed to be protecting me. I run into stories like this every so often and they make me sick with worry.

They are protecting you.

Question; if someone kidnapped your kids and you went to the cops, would you expect them to react seriously? Of course. So if someone could prove to a significant extent that there was reason for the cops to question your custody or the safety of your children, why exactly should the cops not do something about it until the concerns are resolved? It's not like someone is going to walk in off the street and make a random claim that can't be remotely verified and you end up losing your kids.

Not only that, but even having something like that happen at all in even the briefest manner is significantly unlikely that I don't think it's a notable statistic even in the USA.

The point is though, if it does happen, it's probably going to be resolved quickly, and that it can happen is the inevitable flip-side to the ability of the government to protect you from people kidnapping your kids. It's almost unequivocally a good thing and fearing your government over it is not going to make it any better.


That being said, the USA has plenty of issues with their government (part of which is because everyone there seems so anti-government that I don't know how they still function) and their police forces, as well evidenced in this thread, with the NSA fiasco, and the constant it-would-be-funny-if-it-wasn't-so-sad/scary sideshow that is American politics/the political system. Not that the last one is unique to the USA but it's definitely on a different level/scale there than the rest of the world. (Also the constant spotlight doesn't help...)
But I don't think any of that justifies the kind of worry you're talking about. I think that's just standard parent worries. XD
And it definitely doesn't justify Nico's position. >.>

[HoosierDaddy]

Quote

That being said, the USA has plenty of issues with their government (part of which is because everyone there seems so anti-government that I don't know how they still function)

.

The cluster-fuck that comprises that current American political body would be impossible to comprehend for a foreigner not extremely well versed. It's not understood by most American citizens, to be honest, even on this board. There are so many nuances that make it ridiculously complicated (as I'm sure you'd categorize your own state's for the most part). To your statement I'd say: Not everyone is anti-government; frankly, most people are NOT anti-government. They are anti-OTHER-THAN-THEIR-IDEOLOGY government.

Republicans love government when it gives them what they want: social control (no abortions, no gay marriage, fed government out of my house), economic control (if it means less control: i.e.: regulation), military control (hell yeah), control everyone but ME (state) control.

Democrats love government when it gives them what they want: social control (pro-choice, free-marriage), economic control (unions, healthcare), military control (get the fuck out unless necessary), control of no one but ourselves (me) control.

[Silencer]

HoosierDaddy, on 14 February 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

Quote

That being said, the USA has plenty of issues with their government (part of which is because everyone there seems so anti-government that I don't know how they still function)

.

The cluster-fuck that comprises that current American political body would be impossible to comprehend for a foreigner not extremely well versed. It's not understood by most American citizens, to be honest, even on this board. There are so many nuances that make it ridiculously complicated (as I'm sure you'd categorize your own state's for the most part). To your statement I'd say: Not everyone is anti-government; frankly, most people are NOT anti-government. They are anti-OTHER-THAN-THEIR-IDEOLOGY government.

Republicans love government when it gives them what they want: social control (no abortions, no gay marriage, fed government out of my house), economic control (if it means less control: i.e.: regulation), military control (hell yeah), control everyone but ME (state) control.

Democrats love government when it gives them what they want: social control (pro-choice, free-marriage), economic control (unions, healthcare), military control (get the fuck out unless necessary), control of no one but ourselves (me) control.

Granted, I was generalising for the purpose of a cheap shot. I think the basis of that statement was more along the lines of party support being so extreme and rabid - at least what makes the news. The reaction to Obama looking at raising the tax on people earning over $1 mil a year being instantly and repeatedly shot down as "class warfare", for example. I mean...seriously?
So a large part of that perception of the states is because of the media, not necessarily individuals - again, I think it's exacerbated by the US being under the world spotlight. That, and the vast amounts of money being poured into both parties' campaigns no doubt contributes to the appearance of a clusterfuck.

Though I don't think I categorize NZ's government as complicated. There's very little in the way of overly complicated legal interplay (as we don't do a lot in the district vs. federal law space, given at best you have a handful of local bylaws that the council enacts (none of which can contradict national law) and while I'm sure the day-to-day is a mish-mash of awkward prioritizing, budgetary limitations, and annoying formalities and frustratingly specific requirements or loopholes, much like most businesses to be honest. But other than that the system is simple enough, and we certainly don't have anything as ridiculous as gerrymandering, filibusters, or multiple layers of jurisdiction, conflict between local and state and federal laws, etc.

But most of that is a direct byproduct of the fact that NZ is tiny, physically and population wise. We just don't need as much structure, which means we don't have one of the primary causes of increased complexity. That being said, having not worked in the NZ government, I'm not an authority on the matter. Though I've never heard anyone either in the government or outside of it calling it complicated or difficult or weird. *shrug*

[Tsundoku]

HoosierDaddy, on 14 February 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

Republicans love government when it gives them what they want: social control (no abortions, no gay marriage, fed government out of my house), economic control (if it means less control: i.e.: regulation), military control (hell yeah), control everyone but ME (state) control.

I've always simultaneously loved and been completely mystified by this incredible internal contradiction. Stay the hell heck out of my house, but by all means go into the gays houses to make sure they don't get up to any of that gay stuff. And that's just for starters. They don't necessarily have a monopoly on hypocrisy, just a controlling interest.

[HoosierDaddy]

Silencer, on 14 February 2015 - 02:16 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 14 February 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

Quote

That being said, the USA has plenty of issues with their government (part of which is because everyone there seems so anti-government that I don't know how they still function)

.

The cluster-fuck that comprises that current American political body would be impossible to comprehend for a foreigner not extremely well versed. It's not understood by most American citizens, to be honest, even on this board. There are so many nuances that make it ridiculously complicated (as I'm sure you'd categorize your own state's for the most part). To your statement I'd say: Not everyone is anti-government; frankly, most people are NOT anti-government. They are anti-OTHER-THAN-THEIR-IDEOLOGY government.

Republicans love government when it gives them what they want: social control (no abortions, no gay marriage, fed government out of my house), economic control (if it means less control: i.e.: regulation), military control (hell yeah), control everyone but ME (state) control.

Democrats love government when it gives them what they want: social control (pro-choice, free-marriage), economic control (unions, healthcare), military control (get the fuck out unless necessary), control of no one but ourselves (me) control.

...

But most of that is a direct byproduct of the fact that NZ is tiny, physically and population wise. We just don't need as much structure, which means we don't have one of the primary causes of increased complexity. That being said, having not worked in the NZ government, I'm not an authority on the matter. Though I've never heard anyone either in the government or outside of it calling it complicated or difficult or weird. *shrug*

Lucky you, Silencer. I think that is more the exception than the rule, but that might be coming from this biased perspective.

I wish our body politic were reminded at how extreme they are at times by having people from other cultures just have at them. In the end it will never matter until people care as much about the world as they do their own daily life.

Good luck.

[HoosierDaddy]

Sombra, on 14 February 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 14 February 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

Republicans love government when it gives them what they want: social control (no abortions, no gay marriage, fed government out of my house), economic control (if it means less control: i.e.: regulation), military control (hell yeah), control everyone but ME (state) control.

I've always simultaneously loved and been completely mystified by this incredible internal contradiction. Stay the hell heck out of my house, but by all means go into the gays houses to make sure they don't get up to any of that gay stuff. And that's just for starters. They don't necessarily have a monopoly on hypocrisy, just a controlling interest.

They'd couch it in more confusing words for their voters, of course, and accuse them of at the least "not-Christian-enough" and more likely "ANTI-AMERICAN!"

[Silencer]

HoosierDaddy, on 14 February 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

Silencer, on 14 February 2015 - 02:16 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 14 February 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

Quote

That being said, the USA has plenty of issues with their government (part of which is because everyone there seems so anti-government that I don't know how they still function)

.

The cluster-fuck that comprises that current American political body would be impossible to comprehend for a foreigner not extremely well versed. It's not understood by most American citizens, to be honest, even on this board. There are so many nuances that make it ridiculously complicated (as I'm sure you'd categorize your own state's for the most part). To your statement I'd say: Not everyone is anti-government; frankly, most people are NOT anti-government. They are anti-OTHER-THAN-THEIR-IDEOLOGY government.

Republicans love government when it gives them what they want: social control (no abortions, no gay marriage, fed government out of my house), economic control (if it means less control: i.e.: regulation), military control (hell yeah), control everyone but ME (state) control.

Democrats love government when it gives them what they want: social control (pro-choice, free-marriage), economic control (unions, healthcare), military control (get the fuck out unless necessary), control of no one but ourselves (me) control.

...

But most of that is a direct byproduct of the fact that NZ is tiny, physically and population wise. We just don't need as much structure, which means we don't have one of the primary causes of increased complexity. That being said, having not worked in the NZ government, I'm not an authority on the matter. Though I've never heard anyone either in the government or outside of it calling it complicated or difficult or weird. *shrug*

Lucky you, Silencer. I think that is more the exception than the rule, but that might be coming from this biased perspective.

I wish our body politic were reminded at how extreme they are at times by having people from other cultures just have at them. In the end it will never matter until people care as much about the world as they do their own daily life.

Good luck.

Oh, it most likely is. Don't get me wrong; I have issues with our political system and the parties, and how government operates, but I'm also pretty sure that we are at the bottom end of the scale as far as those issues go.


Actually, I thought it was an interesting point that was made in a documentary I watched recently, "Inequality for All" - it was pretty interesting all around, but I thought one comment in particular was made to the tune of how US politics has just slipped ever more towards the Right in recent years - something about how your former Labour Secretary used to be on Fox all the time, but now doesn't get asked any more and is treated as a communist/socialist for his views...as is the former Republican whip/Assistant Leader in the Senate Alan Simpson. I mean...really? How far right do politics have to shift for something like that to happen? XD

Unfortunately most of the people calling America out seem to be from countries not normally taken seriously. Australia especially, but also NZ and the like tend to follow along with whatever the US is doing, so it's kind of an echo chamber. That being said, the US could certainly be a lot worse, so that's something, right? XD

[Nicodimas]

Back to this argument:

https://www.facebook...&type=2
https://au.news.yaho...g-homeless-man/

Something is wrong with our country.

[worry]

http://www.washingto...6239_story.html

[worry]

[amphibian]

I will read the entirety of the report tonight and tomorrow. From the limited excerpts I've seen elsewhere, there are an enormous amount of specifically enumerated incidents in which the Ferguson police use unwarranted procedures, violence and/or trumped up charges to basically steal money and time from black people.

Ta-Nehisi Coates reminds us that racism isn't really about being mean to non white people - it is about plundering them. This report stops short of actually saying that, but the meaning is clear.