[theocean]

Just got done reading Gruntle dominating the pannions by the building full and have seen the badass fighters list, but who is the best fighter with a chosen weapon? No magic, no warrens, no munitions. Straight blade/staff/cutlass whatever battle. Im going with Daseem rake Jan as my top three that we have seen.

[Grief]

It's a pretty tricky question, because the characters we're considering would tend to be ascendants, and we don't really know how much that benefits them in the fights we see. For example, being powerful with magic might also make a character stronger/faster which is obviously a big deal, and with a lot of characters (Karsa and Apsalar are the first that come to mind for me) the boundaries are kind of blurry.

Likewise, it depends what other boundaries we're setting. Dragnipur in itself is a huge advantage, so the "chosen weapon" stipulation seems a bit unfair.

Also, is it a question of who is the most skilled with a weapon (where we should maybe try and discount natural physical advantages, such as Karsa's strength, as well as supernatural ones), or who we think would actually most likely win in a fight, with the stipulation that no magic is allowed (or at least no magical attacks, if we want to allow physical advantages resultant from ascendancy?).

[Abyss]

Neither Rake no Dassem can be said to be 'no warren'.

Rake in FoD, at least initially, seems to be a baseline Andii with no warren or other powers... and the Shake master assassin was afraid of him and backed down. That suggests Rake was seriously skilled pre-ascension. We don't really see him in action in FoD tho', and by the end he's been aspected by MD and the QoD.

We've never seen Dassem pre- at the very least his investment by Hood. Even at the earliest stage he would have been getting the benefits of the Deadhouse, so that's a tough one to assess. No doubt he was good, but how good is unclear. And Whiskeyjack, with no enhancement, was able to effectively spar with him, at a stage where Das had at least the Deadhouse and probably Hood to draw on, which says more about WJ than it does about Dassem all things considered.

It's been suggested once or twice that there is some sorcery at work with the Seguleh, but OST seems to eliminate that possibility, so with that in mind i'd say Jan is likely the best of the best we've seen in the books with no warren or other power-up.

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 29 October 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

Neither Rake no Dassem can be said to be 'no warren'.

Rake in FoD, at least initially, seems to be a baseline Andii with no warren or other powers... and the Shake master assassin was afraid of him and backed down. That suggests Rake was seriously skilled pre-ascension. We don't really see him in action in FoD tho', and by the end he's been aspected by MD and the QoD.

We've never seen Dassem pre- at the very least his investment by Hood. Even at the earliest stage he would have been getting the benefits of the Deadhouse, so that's a tough one to assess. No doubt he was good, but how good is unclear. And Whiskeyjack, with no enhancement, was able to effectively spar with him, at a stage where Das had at least the Deadhouse and probably Hood to draw on, which says more about WJ than it does about Dassem all things considered.

It's been suggested once or twice that there is some sorcery at work with the Seguleh, but OST seems to eliminate that possibility, so with that in mind i'd say Jan is likely the best of the best we've seen in the books with no warren or other power-up.

Trull Sengar? When he fought the other Edur, and then Icarium, I don't think he had a warren, or did he?

[theocean]

I dont think trull had a weapon. But Ic wasnt in full beast mode was he?

[Andorion]

Trull had a weapon. A spear. And Icarium was pretty much powered up

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 30 October 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Trull had a weapon. A spear. And Icarium was pretty much powered up

When Trull fights Iccy the Shadow Warren has invested him as Knight. He just didn't know it yet.
That said, Trull was already acknowledged to be better than Fear, who was the Edur 'Weapons Master' as of MT. Fair bet he's the best unaspected Tiste we've seen, since we can't judge pre-aspect Rake.


There's Brys of course, but we only see him fight distinct duels. Hard to say whether he could have maintained the same pace that Trull does throughout guarding the First Throne.

We see Jan chop his way through the fighting in Darujhistan, and based on his being Second and the pace Mok, Third, maintained through the battles in MoI, I'd still go with Jan as the best all around unmagic'd fighter.

Although naturally the ultimate answer is Wolverine.

[theocean]

Andorion, on 30 October 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Trull had a weapon. A spear. And Icarium was pretty much powered up

I meant warren not weapon. sorry.

[Gorefest]

Didn't Yedan Derryg take out some FAs already before he acquired the Hust sword?Or would he be considered aspected as Watch?

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 30 October 2014 - 04:44 PM

[theocean]

Abyss, on 30 October 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Andorion, on 30 October 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Trull had a weapon. A spear. And Icarium was pretty much powered up

When Trull fights Iccy the Shadow Warren has invested him as Knight. He just didn't know it yet.
That said, Trull was already acknowledged to be better than Fear, who was the Edur 'Weapons Master' as of MT. Fair bet he's the best unaspected Tiste we've seen, since we can't judge pre-aspect Rake.


There's Brys of course, but we only see him fight distinct duels. Hard to say whether he could have maintained the same pace that Trull does throughout guarding the First Throne.

We see Jan chop his way through the fighting in Darujhistan, and based on his being Second and the pace Mok, Third, maintained through the battles in MoI, I'd still go with Jan as the best all around unmagic'd fighter.

Although naturally the ultimate answer is Wolverine.

technically hes a god of war though so he should be lefy out.

[Gorefest]

Abyss, on 30 October 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Although naturally the ultimate answer is Wolverine.

Wolverine has 'magic' healing ability, so doesn't count.

[Abyss]

theocean, on 30 October 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Andorion, on 30 October 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Trull had a weapon. A spear. And Icarium was pretty much powered up

I meant warren not weapon. sorry.

No worries, he had that too.

Gorefest, on 30 October 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

Didn't Yedan Derryg take out some FAs already before he acquired the Hust sword?Or would he be considered aspected as Watch?

I'm not sure whether he's aspected or just badass... but his and Twilight's royal blood is often referred to as being powerful, so i'd say he's more than baseline Shake/Tiste-human-hybrid and doesn't qualify.

Gorefest, on 30 October 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

Abyss, on 30 October 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Although naturally the ultimate answer is Wolverine.

Wolverine has 'magic' healing ability, so doesn't count.

In any ho'd win discussion, Wolverine ALWAYS counts. Also, wins.

[blackzoid]

I think warrens/Ascendency/magic creeps into most characters if they get badass enough in Malazan, so its hard to find any-non warren fighters.

Maybe Fiddler when he was trying to get away from his own squad at the start of DoD. But he is a reader of teh deck so maybe he had some Ascendency power

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 30 October 2014 - 06:18 PM

[theocean]

From what we can tell the seguleh dont have any real power ups... Whiskeyjack didnt either and he stood up to Kalor except for that damn leg (thanks mallet). Im not sure how karsas ability to be his own warren really gives him added powers?

[Abyss]

blackzoid, on 30 October 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

I think warrens/Ascendency/magic creeps into most characters if they get badass enough in Malazan, so its hard to find any-non warren fighters.

Maybe Fiddler when he was trying to get away from his own squad at the start of DoD. But he is a reader of teh deck so maybe he had some Ascendency power

By that point Fid has already been thru Rarku, Yghatan and Beak's white light. Also, he's a terrible swordsman. Effective leader, good fighter, patron-god of sappers.... but swords, not so much.

theocean, on 30 October 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

From what we can tell the seguleh dont have any real power ups... Whiskeyjack didnt either and he stood up to Kalor except for that damn leg (thanks mallet). Im not sure how karsas ability to be his own warren really gives him added powers?

There's a one-off comment in TtH about Seguleh and High Denul that, REALLY stretching, might be taken to suggest they've been enhanced at some point. Throw in the historical link to the Darujhistan Tyrant and it's not a ridiculous theory, but nothing we see elsewhere really supports it (tho there was Mok's ability to sense Garath suffering from Envy's use of Poliel's Warren in MoI...).

By the time he faced Kallor, WJ had Raraku in his background, possibly the Deadhouse too. It's not clear exactly when he fenced with Dassem, but i like to believe it was pre-Raraku and he was just that damn good.

Karsa... all baseline Teblor at least from his tribe had the effects of continued exposure to otataral via bloodoil and bloodwood, the Rock Faces' manipulation, and possibly sideways the T3 racial warren, so he's really hard to call unenhanced even at the earliest point in his story.

[blackzoid]

Maybe the Adjucents, Tavore and Lorn then. With the Otatoral magic deadening swords, by definition they would be magic/Ascendency free.

Though maybe the sword would not stop Eldar Warren power. I think the story is not clear on Otatoral versus Eldar Warrens?

[Andorion]

Kalam in the Bonehunters?

[Abyss]

blackzoid, on 30 October 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Maybe the Adjucents, Tavore and Lorn then. With the Otatoral magic deadening swords, by definition they would be magic/Ascendency free.

Though maybe the sword would not stop Eldar Warren power. I think the story is not clear on Otatoral versus Eldar Warrens?

Extended exposure gives them a healing factor thing, so they wouldn't qualify.

[blackzoid]

Abyss, on 31 October 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Extended exposure gives them a healing factor thing, so they wouldn't qualify.

Really? I must have missed that.
So Otatoral (spelling) is kidna a bit like Denul?
Odd, especially given what we know what massive concentrations of Otatoral did to all life in the TCG.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 31 October 2014 - 09:03 AM

[Gorefest]

theocean, on 30 October 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

Whiskeyjack didnt either and he stood up to Kalor except for that damn leg (thanks mallet).

Harsh