[Randomander]

So in a vision Udinaas received from Wither in chapter 7, we're shown a scene with Osserc confronting his daughters, Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu, while they're dragging sheltaltha Lores unconscious form to the the Azath House for internment when an interesting conversation took place:

"Menandore's eyes fell to the motionless form of Sheltatha Lore. 'This one. She took a lover from among this world's gods, did she not? ''For a time. Begetting two horrid little children. ''Horrid? Daughters, then.'Sukul nodded. 'And their father saw that clearly enough from the very start, for he named them appropriately. ''Oh? And what were those names, sister? ''Envy and Spite." Menandore smiled. 'This god—I think I would enjoy meeting him one day. ''It is possible he would object to what we plan to do with Sheltatha Lore. Indeed, it is possible that even now he seeks our trail, so that he might prevent our revenge. Accordingly, as Osserc is wont to say, we should make haste."

From what we've read thus far in FoD it's widely speculated that the triplets mother was Olar Ethil, as per the description given of their mother (Ill track that down), granted Sheltaltha Lore was alive at the time, but she was young and the daughter of some noble or other (Tathe Lorate?), and i doubt her having draconus' kids would have gone unnoticed. Im just trying to find some way to piece this puzzle together, any thoughts?

A side note, all the Tiste came from the same realm as the Azathani, or at least neighboring realms they were familiar with, as we read in FoD, and so wouldn't be referring to Draconus and other Azathani elder gods as "this world's gods".

P.s. Another convo excerpt I can make neither heads nor tails of from this particular exchange:

"The man shrugged. 'Does it matter? It was Scabandari's conceit to think this world's gods had not the power to oppose him.' He paused then to eye his daughters speculatively, and said, 'Heed that as a warning, my dears. Mother Dark's first children were spawned without need of any sire. And, despite what Anomander might claim, they were not Tiste Andii."

Da hell is Osserc talkin about here?

This post has been edited by Randomander: 09 October 2014 - 07:11 PM

[nacht]

I think FoD changed somewhat from what SE was originally planning.
That is to say that if there was a new (edited) edition, this conversation would have been removed.

[Randomander]

 nacht, on 09 October 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I think FoD changed somewhat from what SE was originally planning.
That is to say that if there was a new (edited) edition, this conversation would have been removed.

Understandable. It's gotta be tough to keep up with every little detail and conversation with a story so vast and intricate. I guess I'm kind of an asshole for even pointing this kinda stuff out haha

[nacht]

 Randomander, on 09 October 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

 nacht, on 09 October 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I think FoD changed somewhat from what SE was originally planning.
That is to say that if there was a new (edited) edition, this conversation would have been removed.

Understandable. It's gotta be tough to keep up with every little detail and conversation with a story so vast and intricate. I guess I'm kind of an asshole for even pointing this kinda stuff out haha

Nah! This particular conversation has bothered a lot of people. There is a long thread on this somewhere. I will try to find it.
There is really no good way to explain this unless SE somehow pulls a rabbit out of the hat. (which he is capable of).

[amphibian]

 Randomander, on 09 October 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

 nacht, on 09 October 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I think FoD changed somewhat from what SE was originally planning.
That is to say that if there was a new (edited) edition, this conversation would have been removed.

Understandable. It's gotta be tough to keep up with every little detail and conversation with a story so vast and intricate. I guess I'm kind of an asshole for even pointing this kinda stuff out haha

I disagree. Erikson loves playing around with memories, mythology, handed down lore/games of telephone (garbling of the truth), purposeful obscuration of the past and what actually occurred. The ambiguity here is purposeful and he's seemingly found a better storyline than the one that Menadore and Osserc refer to in their words - so he's showing in the newer books that what these people knew wasn't the whole story.

Menadore (as far as we can tell) wasn't a first hand witness to Envy and Spite's upbringing and parentage. She's speaking to Sheltatha Lore, who wasn't either. Sukhul is unconscious.

As for Osserc's words, we've yet to see what happened at the time and what Osserc knew - which probably wasn't the whole story given his position and attitude in FoD.

[worry]

In addition, it is a mistake to assume in any scene that it is Steven Erikson -- omniscient narrator -- telling it like it is. We know from TTH that Kruppe narrates a lot of that story. At any point in the rest of the series it might as well be him, or Kaminsod, or Fisher, or Duiker, or Heboric, or Toc, or Udinaas, or Saddic, or anyone else providing first, second, third etc. hand narrations of events as they understand them.

[D'rek]

 amphibian, on 09 October 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Menadore (as far as we can tell) wasn't a first hand witness to Envy and Spite's upbringing and parentage. She's speaking to Sheltatha Lore, who wasn't either. Sukhul is unconscious.

Other way around - Sheltatha is unconscious and Menandore is talking to Sukul, but yeah.

 worry, on 09 October 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

In addition, it is a mistake to assume in any scene that it is Steven Erikson -- omniscient narrator -- telling it like it is. We know from TTH that Kruppe narrates a lot of that story. At any point in the rest of the series it might as well be him, or Kaminsod, or Fisher, or Duiker, or Heboric, or Toc, or Udinaas, or Saddic, or anyone else providing first, second, third etc. hand narrations of events as they understand them.

Hard to buy that in this case though - MT is framed as Trull telling Onrack about past events amongst the Edur, but Trull himself wouldn't have actually known anything about Udinaas' dream travels so the narrator framing device can't honestly apply to that particular scene.

[worry]

I posit it applies to every single scene in the series. Surely much of MT comes from Trull's narrative to Onrack & co, but just as much of it doesn't. SE as chronicler of the more complete story has numerous sources. It's not like Trull added the poems and historical fragments at the start of each chapter. Perhaps Udinaas told his story to a reanimated Imass who told a soletaken wombat who told a human historian 3000 years in the future and whose work was half-legible by the time it got to the narrator.

[nacht]

 worry, on 10 October 2014 - 01:43 AM, said:

I posit it applies to every single scene in the series. Surely much of MT comes from Trull's narrative to Onrack & co, but just as much of it doesn't. SE as chronicler of the more complete story has numerous sources. It's not like Trull added the poems and historical fragments at the start of each chapter. Perhaps Udinaas told his story to a reanimated Imass who told a soletaken wombat who told a human historian 3000 years in the future and whose work was half-legible by the time it got to the narrator.

Worry has framed the perfect argument!

The corollary is
If you want perfection, read mathematics!

[Felisin Fatter]

Neither scene has an explanation, but speculating is fun

- My theory for the first is that Envy and Spite at some point seek the protection of Sheltatha Lore. She claims them as family and explains their non-tiste-ness by claiming a Divine lover (Also very helpful if she was actively seeking to protect them.) The two lovely girls in question likely have mind control powers, so Sheltatha (and others) might actually believe this is the truth. Also also, all five women involved in this scheme are liars and politicians and the opposite of reliable witnesses.
- The sneer (?) at Anomander can have many meanings. The simplest is that Anomander & brothers are MD's children in a literal sense, not Nimander's, and that they are not actually (fully?) Tiste and never were. They might be (half) azathanai, it sure is possible. Or the speaker merely believes this.
I prefer the alternative explanation, that he's implying that MD created humankind, as a private project, and considers them her 'first children' (not chronologically, but hierarchically (- is that even a word?)). But that is crazy theory territory

This post has been edited by Felisin Fatter: 10 October 2014 - 09:23 AM

[worry]

I'm glad you brought up the mind control powers, cuz that might actually become a logical explanation down the line.