[Iskra]

Hmm...this is what happens when your opinion differs from the majority...you get wolfpacked and attacked for just doing what the thread was designed for.

I posted MY opinions...the things that irritated ME...things I would like to see changed. Isn't that what this thread was all about? Things that bother you about the series? Instead of arguing my points, a bunch of you attack me personally...a stereotypical knee-jerk reaction of a bunch of fan boys. For a moment I thought I had criticized George Lucas here.

I'm not a "skim reader" whatever that means. I've read Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates twice for that matter. I am just bothered by vagueness. When I read fantasy or sci-fi books like Erikson's...epic, world-building books...I like to immerse myself in them. I create my own back stories, I draw my own maps, I expand things...it's just something I love to do. I just think that in the Malazan books I seemed to be doing a lot of that all the time...so I saw this thread here and posted my frustrations in it.

Was that wrong? Have I offended you SE worshippers personally? Geez...I apologize.

Imperial Historian...thank you for actually discussing my points instead of going after me personally. Illuyankas...what trolling? Since when is stating your opinion "trolling"? So anyone who you disagree with is an automatic "troll"? If I had posted "the Malazan books suck!!" ...THAT's trolling. I posted my opinions and elaborated on why I thought them. Please refrain from calling it trolling. Aptorian, the original person who answered my post...you actually discussed the points rather than slamming me. At first I thought you called me "a 5 year old imbecile" so I called you a snob. I apologize for my OWN knee jerk reaction.

Anyways...I still love SE and the Malazan books. I own all of them and will continue buying them. I think SE is a master of his field and my own gripes aside I still think the Malazan books are the biggest attempt by a fantasist in creating a world.

Excuse me for thinking that these boards were for actual discussion and not blind worship of a writer. I will think twice before posting again.

[Optimus Prime]

Iskra;301301 said:

Hmm...this is what happens when your opinion differs from the majority...you get wolfpacked and attacked for just doing what the thread was designed for.

I posted MY opinions...the things that irritated ME...things I would like to see changed. Isn't that what this thread was all about? Things that bother you about the series? Instead of arguing my points, a bunch of you attack me personally...a stereotypical knee-jerk reaction of a bunch of fan boys. For a moment I thought I had criticized George Lucas here.

I'm not a "skim reader" whatever that means. I've read Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates twice for that matter. I am just bothered by vagueness. When I read fantasy or sci-fi books like Erikson's...epic, world-building books...I like to immerse myself in them. I create my own back stories, I draw my own maps, I expand things...it's just something I love to do. I just think that in the Malazan books I seemed to be doing a lot of that all the time...so I saw this thread here and posted my frustrations in it.

Was that wrong? Have I offended you SE worshippers personally? Geez...I apologize.

Imperial Historian...thank you for actually discussing my points instead of going after me personally. Xander...you know nothing about me so act like an adult. Illuyankas...what trolling? Since when is stating your opinion "trolling"? So anyone who you disagree with is an automatic "troll"? If I had posted "the Malazan books suck!!" ...THAT's trolling. I posted my opinions and elaborated on why I thought them. Please refrain from calling it trolling. Aptorian, the original person who answered my post...you actually discussed the points rather than slamming me. At first I thought you called me "a 5 year old imbecile" so I called you a snob. I apologize for my OWN knee jerk reaction. Trull's son...eat a dick, you child.

Anyways...I still love SE and the Malazan books. I own all of them and will continue buying them. I think SE is a master of his field and my own gripes aside I still think the Malazan books are the biggest attempt by a fantasist in creating a world.

Excuse me for thinking that these boards were for actual discussion and not blind worship of a writer. I will think twice before posting again.

So when you insult any of us it's perfectly acceptable. I don't have a problem with pointing out SE's faults. I'm not a "fan boy", but I'm not hip to the nerd diction either.

I was pointing out the parts of your post that were false facts, not opinions. I actually defended a few of your points. But you skim a lot so I'm not surprised.

Calm down. Maybe both parties overreacted a little, but now you're just outright insulting people.

[Imperial Historian]

:folken: wields mod sword :folken:

Ok calm down guys, this isn't a goodkind forum just because someone brings up valid criticisms with the books there's no need to jump down his throat too much, please try and keep criticisms valid and address points raised in a civilised manner. It is quite clear iskara isn't a troll, though he does appear to have differing viewpoints to many of us, and has raised some valid points. Personal comments are not welcome in this thread.

trull's son, you should think twice about making your first post a snide insult at another member, please keep comments constructive or your not welcome here.

Iskara I hope you don't think twice about posting here again as you are clearly an interested and intelligent poster, I think hanging around these boards, asking questions and looking at our attempt at an online encyclopedia will help answer your questions so please stick around.

To other members, including iskara, personel insults are not appreciated, even if in apparent retaliation, if you've got a problem, tell a mod, or report the post and we'll deal with it. I'm going to edit out the worst insults here, but I'll leave the majority of the posts as some interesting point were raised and discussed if in an unneccessarily combative tone.

Now play nice :angel:

[Shryval]

Well said Imperial Historian.

While Iskra's initial tone seems to have riled many, accusing him of being a skim reader when he admits to bafflement and dissatisfaction at areas of this book (or asking "why do you even read the books?") is just turning what has been a very worthwhile thread into a muck flinging exercise. And of course, everyone comes out of that covered in shit. Iskra says he's not, but big deal if he was? I skim read whole sections of Bonehunters and Reapers Gale, because for me, sections of them were poor. On the re-reads, I found some extra insights but not enough to make me think SE had cleverly and cryptically imbued the text with some magical quality I'd missed the first time. It's not an autostereogram that you stare at unfocused and watch the 3D image appear. There simply are, imho, areas that are not up to the soaringly high standards he reached early, and it leads me to worry whether he can direct the series to a satisfactory conclusion.

Regarding the areas that Iskra is struggling with, personally I don't care about the racial or geographical vagueness, but it has troubled me when I've wanted to write myself because I always thought such inconcistency would be an issue that readers would tear apart. It's really refreshing and motivating to see many say that, because it's fantasy, they just don't care whether ice fields are on the equator, or whether this racial trait or that pigmentation is logical or well-described.

I agree with him on some of the plot complexities. The Eresal particularly - introducing a time-travelling monkey-woman half way through a 10 book arc that at a touch can either calm a raging phychopath or induce ejaculation just makes me wince. Mind you, you gotta give SE top marks for originality! At no point did I think "oh god not another generic time travelling monkey woman plot".

The constant Deus-Ex-Machina grates. It's not a valid excuse to me to say well that's just what happens when lots of uber powerful beings are running around. Sorry, but I wouldn't accept it it from Goodkind, and I believe SE can do better. And the problem with having so many uber powerful beings running around is I start to feel the whole RPG seed that spawned this series assert itself. And here's a demon that's more powerful than X. But wait here's a character that's more powerful, though not as powerful as Y. Here's Z who can march across a war torn continent without even a scratch. Each to their own, but I find it... adolescent.

Ok, it's a criticism thread, but I'll feel more comfortable signing off with a disclaimer that I really love this series and will continue to read and enjoy each episode. I have a lot of faith, despite my fears, that SE could pull it all together - which is why I believe TTH will be an absolutely crucial book.

[Nagrom]

Hey I didn't mean TO insult anybody with my opinion,
I was genuinely interested as TO why Iskra read the books, I was intrigued, as all the things that he/she listed as criticisms ARE the actual things I like about MBotF.

Dude if YOU felt I was attacking YOU I apologise, YOUR opinion is YOUR right, it was no way meant as a personal attack. Sorry

[Illuyankas]

@Iskra: It was the way you responded to Apt's post that irked me, it seemed at the time that you were deliberately being a dick. Still, as funny as it seemed at the time (8am) my post WAS overly rude, so, I'm sorry for my knee jerk reaction to your knee jerk reaction. Cheers for still reading on either way.

[polishgenius]

On descriptions in SE's world, he often takes a while to reveal things - you don't just get an infodump of what people/races/species look like - but he usually gets there in the end. Perhaps not as specific as other authors, but enough to get a picture in your head.
For example with Jaghut you pick up some clues from the general description - ie tusks and green skin- but then you get things like multi-jointed hands, and bits and bobs from descriptions of individuals, like Gothos or Icarium (only half, I know, but I'm pretty sure it says things like 'Jhagut blood is evident' (that's a paraphrase).

Still, he doesn't highlight things. I'm aware of people who haven't realised throughout the entire series that Quick Ben and Kalam are black.

[Mentalist]

meh... imho, 7C are STILL more Middle-Eastern than just African Black....

Also, in MoI, Baudin is deduced to be Malazan by his dark skin...

dal Honese seem to be the equivalent of Africans, as far as I understand.

[Illuyankas]

@Kud: More his features than his skin colour, since he's as gold as Gesler and Stormy.

[Mentalist]

could be.. (I desperately need a re-read)

[Trull's son]

It's funny that when i suggest reading forgotten realms because of the simple plot, we can assume i was being disrespectfull. now, if we take a moment here, i would have had to read the books before hand to know that. well i have, no regrets, i just figured that compared to SE it was straightforward. their written differently, to say the least, and if you're looking for stories that have next to no vagueness, that the way to go.
Besides, i think Salvatore and Baker and all the rest from FR work hard, and i believe they write so that most people can enjoy the stories, regardless of you intelligence. so Iskra, sorry an'all that, but if you are looking for that kind of story, i stick with my suggestion.

[polishgenius]

Vague and complex aren't the same thing, though. Take, say, a Song of Ice and Fire. Complex plots (not as huge as Malazan, but nothing is, and in some ways it is a lot more convoluted), but it's not vague. And Malazan in places is. Deliberately so. I don't think it's quite as much so as Iskra is saying (I've not long ago finished Book of the New Sun - now that is obtuse), but a large part of what a lot of us love about the series is precisely that uncertainty, so it's definitely there.

I've enjoyed Dragonlance, what I've read of it, but the suggestion that someone who dislikes Malazan for reasons of finding it vague should stick to lowest-common-denominator fare like it, enjoyable as it may be, is always going to be taken as an insult when put in this sort of context.
Especially when you use phrases like 'regardless of your intelligence'.

[Trull's son]

regardless of your intelligence, I'm sorry i wrote that now that it's pointed out. i didn't realize how much of a jackass that sounded. I should have worded it like, regardless of the level of complexity one may be accustom to reading. my bad.
I've read dragonlance and have enjoyed it eventhough it comes nowhere near MBotF. It's a fast read and enjoyable, good for "in between time" when you're waiting to buy the next of a series or a new release.

[Optimus Prime]

Like I said in an earlier post, I think all parties lost their heads a little bit in the previous few pages of this thread. It's water under the bridge now.

I will say I'd love to see a full map by SE before the series is done, but if not, it's not a HUGE deal....but it would help.

[Shryval]

I think we need a group hug

Oh and to keep relevant to the thread, there aren't enough mules in the books. More mules please, Steve.

[Abyss]

Shryval;304083 said:

...there aren't enough mules in the books. More mules please, Steve.

The Mules of Shadow and the Donkeygoth are probably one of those plotlines we'll never really see a resolution to.... just one of those background/backstory bits to add flavour and a sense of menace unseen.


- Abyss, still suspects Dessimbelackis is an ass...

[Ayrin]

Shryval;301499 said:

I skim read whole sections of Bonehunters and Reapers Gale, because for me, sections of them were poor. On the re-reads, I found some extra insights but not enough to make me think SE had cleverly and cryptically imbued the text with some magical quality I'd missed the first time. It's not an autostereogram that you stare at unfocused and watch the 3D image appear. There simply are, imho, areas that are not up to the soaringly high standards he reached early, and it leads me to worry whether he can direct the series to a satisfactory conclusion.

Which parts do you mean?
I mostly got annoyed by the Awl'dan(sp?)-campaign, but that was more because it so far doesn't really tie in to what I perceive to be the main plot, and doesn't really give much info. Not because I found it badly written.

Quote

I agree with him on some of the plot complexities. The Eresal particularly - introducing a time-travelling monkey-woman half way through a 10 book arc that at a touch can either calm a raging phychopath or induce ejaculation just makes me wince. Mind you, you gotta give SE top marks for originality! At no point did I think "oh god not another generic time travelling monkey woman plot".

I agree fully about the Eres'al.
First, I *hate* time-travel and its inherent paradoxes, and also, it's fairly annoying that suddenly a super-powered rapist Australopithecus shows up...
I can handle undead, sword handed Deinonychuses (sans claw), but she was a bit much .

Quote

The constant Deus-Ex-Machina grates. It's not a valid excuse to me to say well that's just what happens when lots of uber powerful beings are running around. Sorry, but I wouldn't accept it it from Goodkind, and I believe SE can do better. And the problem with having so many uber powerful beings running around is I start to feel the whole RPG seed that spawned this series assert itself. And here's a demon that's more powerful than X. But wait here's a character that's more powerful, though not as powerful as Y. Here's Z who can march across a war torn continent without even a scratch. Each to their own, but I find it... adolescent.

I agree here too. Too many problems are solved by some previously unknown magic or by yet another strange creature clawing its way from its barrow (what's wrong with bloody well killing things dead?)

[PopeCthulhuTron9000X]

Originally Posted by Iskra
…he needs to sit at the feet of George R. R Martin and learn a thing or two about creating plots and memorable characters.

I just finished Reaper's Gale about 3 weeks ago and I've read about 4 non-Malazan books since then, and I still can't stop thinking about the characters in MBoTF. I'm completely obsessed with Bridgeburners and Bonehunters. Erikson has written some of the most memorable characters I've ever encountered.

[JoJo]

Quote

…he needs to sit at the feet of George R. R Martin and learn a thing or two about creating plots and memorable characters.

Martin is an excellent writer and I enjoy reading his books. However, I think SE is a better writer than Martin. YMMV.

[Aptorian]

I don't necessarily think that Erikson is better than GRRM... it's been years since I read the first three ASOIF books.

I do on the other hand find Erikson far more entertaining. His storytelling style is much more gripping in my opinion.