[dawnkiller]

(Whoa, a 47 page thread is kind of frightening, but at least it has 4 years' worth of existence behind it . . .)

I really enjoy the extensive attention to detail about geography, culture and prehistory -- I think these are the things that make Erikson hands-down the most convincing High Fantasy worldbuilder I've read yet. (Not to mention the fact that he might deliver the best climaxes in the business, but that's a different thread.) What's a little more of a stumbling block for me is when the characters go off on long examination of the flaws inherent in their particular social system.

It's not that this happens that I have a problem with -- only those instances where it seems to happen at the expense of developing other aspects of the character (bizarrely, mostly in the context of the Lethrii and Edur -- it doesn't seem to happen nearly as often with the Malazans or 7Cs folks). I personally had a hard time keeping all the Letherii in RG straight; while individual characteristics did exist (like an obsessive love of puzzles), they tended to be overshadowed by all their commentary on the social system. To the point I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually can't remember any of them as individuals besides Tehol's clan and Triban Gnol. *wince*

His characters, as have been noted, can sometimes be a little flat, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in the context of the story -- his strength is plot and worldbuilding, and when you have a cast of what has to be hundreds by now you can only do so much brain-digging before the story collapses under its own weight. I find a certain amount of glossing an acceptable sacrifice -- and, in most cases, you get less of a sense that a personality doesn't exist than you do it's simply not been explored. (How many bit-characters have you seen and been left wondering ". . . damn, what's THAT guy's story?")

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Sparkimus;283043 said:

While MT was lacking a bit compared to the rest, you can't denounce it entirely. Some of the best characters in the series were introduced, Trull, Tehol, Bugg...come on now.

Actually I said in the tred about the best books that in Mt I liked Tehol and Bugg(why do we still have to call him Bugg and not Mael?) . About Trull I prefer him in HoC and TBH.

______________________________

Quote

You can't be serious!
Death is always serious.

Paran and Hood

Quote

This rain will make the sea rise, yes?

Mallick Rel to Pearl

[Tehol Beddict]

Dawndeath;20350 said:

There's only one big thing I dislike, and it's not really unique for Steven Erikson, but it bothers me that human (and other) civilizations that have existed for 8000 years (Ehrlitan etc) have not undergone Industrial Revolution. It wouldn't help the story, I realize that, but I always feel that scientific development is too slow in fantasy. (Exception may be the K'Chain Che'Malle/Nah'ruk, with their skykeeps etc. but we do not know enough about them yet).

------------------------------------------------------------
FKA Icarium

In a game of patience, the mortal is ever at a disadvantage...

Actually, the human race has existed much, much longer. At least 500, 000 years. (I'm only counting T'lan Imass because the Eres'al had no civiliziation in the terms we're using.) And, when in comparison to our own human rance, it is alot shorter. Keep in mind that they have Moranth Munitions, a technology we didn't have, and, they do have a technonlogical revolution, of a sort: Magic. With the first magic, it was spirit, kind of like Pochohantas. Then, after a few score millenia, the magic evolved to the Holds, which in turn become the Houses. So, no, it makes sense that no industrial revolution hasn't happened yet. Thanks for the input though. :D

[Mentalist]

well, Samar Dev in tBH is an example of someone who could move the technological development forward. yet she hesitated to do so. Also, SE goes through great length to show how progress is cyclical, with Empires arising and toppling--7C is a great example of that, as is Febryl's story of how all of the city's (Ugarat?) acccumulated knowledged was burned to avoid it being captured by Malazans.

[Aptorian]

Tehol Beddict;285859 said:

Actually, the human race has existed much, much longer. At least 500, 000 years. (I'm only counting T'lan Imass because the Eres'al had no civiliziation in the terms we're using.) And, when in comparison to our own human rance, it is alot shorter. Keep in mind that they have Moranth Munitions, a technology we didn't have, and, they do have a technonlogical revolution, of a sort: Magic. With the first magic, it was spirit, kind of like Pochohantas. Then, after a few score millenia, the magic evolved to the Holds, which in turn become the Houses. So, no, it makes sense that no industrial revolution hasn't happened yet. Thanks for the input though. :D

The Eres'al are not Imass and Imass are not humans. They're evolutionary precursors for the human race. You wouldn't compare a neanderthal with a human being would you?

Human beings, along with other brances of humanoids, started evolving out of the Imass some time after the Ritual of Tellan. So the human race is less than 300.00 years old, given the fact that the first empire only arose 130-140.00'ish years before Burns sleep, human beings probably aren't more than 200.000 years old.

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Tehol Beddict;285859 said:

Keep in mind that they have Moranth Munitions, a technology we didn't have,

I think you could realistically equate these to some human technologies.

IMO, crackers and cussers could easily be something achieved with gunpowder in early China. The only difference is a liquid versus a powder.

Burners are just greek fire. It's been around over 2000 years.

[Stormchaser]

OK, I'm sure this has probably been discussed to death already at some time in the past, and I apologize for that, but I'm new to the board and frankly I'm not about to read all 47 pages of this thread, the size of which essentially makes my point for me, said point being this: why isn't there a forum devoted to the MBotF in its entirety? I have lots of thoughts about the series as a whole and how it compares to other large and ambitious works of fantasy, but there's really nowhere for me to start such a thread. It wouldn't be about RG, so it can't go here in the RG forum, but where else is there? Both the Phoenix Inn and the the Discussion forum seem to contain topics that are completely unrelated to the Malazan books, and Other Fantasy is just reviews of other books for the most part, and well, you see the problem. There doesn't seem to be any place for discourse about the series as a whole, other than this thread. Why is this? Surely there's enough to say about the subject, more than can easily fit into a single thread. Where is the Malazan Books forum?

Again, apologies for hijacking the thread but I just didn't know where else to post this.

[Optimus Prime]

That's not a bad idea, but you could've started a thread about this in the "Admin" section probably....

You have a point, most of the time "Overall MBotF" questions go in the section of the latest book to be published. So right now, that would be in the Toll the Hounds section.

[Kode]

My only issue is that not all veterans are hate/love with their officers. It's amusing to read about (which I suppose is mostly the point) but as a Marine and a writer I think there may be a few zillion dimensions that could be explored other then just being a anti-social bad ass who needs to shave.
Re
I realize that the units S.E. focuses on are the baddest of the bad asses, and Reaper's Gale is pretty obvious that we are going to see some intense match ups in the very near future, but some of the folks have to be just that, folks. At least it's not like the Deathstaker series where eventually he ran out of one upping. Steven has done an incredible good job of maintaining believability with such a powerful cast of characters.

[Hark but Soft]

There are plenty of normal and unexceptional people in the books. Being normal, unexceptional people with boring lives, they rightly don't take up much of the story. The story just briefly intersects their lives. Often times these plain old people are senselessly killed by the end of their brief appearance.

[Duvodas]

The first thing I did when I finished Reaper's Gale was ask myself the following, "Whatever happened to the Awl'dan campaing? Why on earth did I just waste my time reading about it when in fact it didn't go anywhere?!"

Sure, we got the Barghast showing up at the end, but that was about it. Absolutely nothing was explained. Nothing. I kept waiting to see who Redmask really was and why the two KCCM were following him and---more than anything---what was so important about him? What was the importance of the campaing anyway??? It didn't play any role on the main plot-line; it rather drew my attention away from it.

Gosh, I hate it when Erikson gets too coy. It sort of pisses me off sometimes.

[Mentalist]

...and now we must wait till DoD for that to make sense..

[Zanth13]

Stormchaser;287052 said:

OK, I'm sure this has probably been discussed to death already at some time in the past, and I apologize for that, but I'm new to the board and frankly I'm not about to read all 47 pages of this thread, the size of which essentially makes my point for me, said point being this: why isn't there a forum devoted to the MBotF in its entirety? I have lots of thoughts about the series as a whole and how it compares to other large and ambitious works of fantasy, but there's really nowhere for me to start such a thread. It wouldn't be about RG, so it can't go here in the RG forum, but where else is there? Both the Phoenix Inn and the the Discussion forum seem to contain topics that are completely unrelated to the Malazan books, and Other Fantasy is just reviews of other books for the most part, and well, you see the problem. There doesn't seem to be any place for discourse about the series as a whole, other than this thread. Why is this? Surely there's enough to say about the subject, more than can easily fit into a single thread. Where is the Malazan Books forum?

Again, apologies for hijacking the thread but I just didn't know where else to post this.

I would think RG would be a fine place to post what you want or maybe TTH thread. Because as far as I know those sections are to discuss the books up to and inlcuding that book

TTH and RG forum are pretty much a place to discuss the books without having to worry about posting any spoilers for people

while the other sections are pretty much a place where people who have not finished/caught up on the books can go/ask questions/ect without having to worry about running into spoilers(in a perfect world)

Zanth, usually avoids this thread because he thinks it is full of HERETICS.

edit: like xander said.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

True-dat.



But really, all that needs be said has been. TTH is good. RG is also good. And as for those blasted Awl, fling up a thread and take potshots at it. We'd all likely partake.

I'm not going to because I have a math midterm to be studying for.

[Ayrin]

The only thing which has really bothered me in the whole series is Whiskeyjack during the march to Coral. Every tenth page or so, there was a reiteration on how utterly nice, cool, sexy, smart and so on and so forth WJ is.
And that his leg ached, 'cause it hadn't been properly healed.

Then Kallor attacks Silverfox (surprise, surprise), WJ steps in the middle ('cause he's so bloody noble, surprise, surprise), almost wins (because *Whiskeyjack* can't lose a relatively fair fight) and then, shockingly, his leg gives out and he is killed... *sigh*

I just felt disgusted.

[PopeCthulhuTron9000X]

The only thing that actually consistently bothers me about the books is the overuse of the word
"sordid."
Gets on my nerves a little bit.


PS. This is my first post. Love the series and the forum seems quite nice. Hi guys!

[Obie's Cure]

Although I may like the word "sordid" (see below), there are others, in my opinion, which are over represented.

1- susurrate (and it's derivatives)
2- efficacious

Furthermore, concerning maps, it is time to allow readers to assemble the world with a logical sense of scale. Having (liberatingly) abandoned the precise linear structure of time (kinematics and the cosmic speed limit aside), it may well behoove the author to meet our needs with a map of "the world".

A little "relativity" couldn't be a bad thing could it?

[Ayrin]

Don't forget misshapen

[Iskra]

Here are my complaints:

1.) Zero Physical Descriptions

This is the FIRST job of any writer...to make you see his characters and his setting in your head and frankly SE fails utterly in this series. I'm on Book 7and I have NO idea what half of the characters look like. Not even a hint. It's ridiculous.

What do Malazans look like as an ethnicity? What do the Letherii? the Mackros? The Faraed? The Gral? or any of the countless ethnicities mentioned. I still don't know what a Jaghut looks like. The only descriptions I can find are "green skinned, tall, lower tusks" uh...that could be anything...from a green Sabretooth / Wolverine mix to a Barsoon alien. What about the Forkrul Assail? "Multi-jointed"...that's it.

What do they wear? I have trouble imagining Malazan soldiery because I don't know what to imagine. Do they wear Roman style armor? Or medieval plate? Or mail?


2.) Non-sensical geography and ethnic distribution

I read an interview with SE and he mentioned the Forgotten Realms maps in a mocking tone saying they were simplistic and ill thought. I had to chuckle myself. SE has some balls to make fun of other series' maps when his own world is yet to be fully pictured by Book SEVEN!! And what we do have makes no sense. How can you have ice fields in Quon Tali at the same latitude as scorching deserts in Seven Cities? How can Dal Hon (south Quon Tali) have jungles that close to snowbound steppe (north of the Fenn Mts. )?

And what is the deal with the ethnic disbribution in his world? Why are there black people everywhere? Why is there a snippet of supposedly "Asians" (Kanese) in south Quon Tali? Why do the people of Perish look like the Faraed (blond hair, blue eyes) when they are so widely distributed?

3.) Needlessly complicated plot

I love the twists and turns SE throws at us. I love the multiple storylines converging. I love the surprises. But geez what a horrendously dense and complicated storyline. I'm in Reaper's Gale and I still have no idea what half the characters' motivations are. A war among the gods is constantly mentioned...but that's it. What war? Why are they at war? I thought the Crippled God was the main antagonist. And what about that Crippled God...we only find out about him in Book 3...almost like Book 1 and 2 have nothing to do with the rest of the story.

After 3,000 plus pages of reading all I have is that the Malazan books are about the struggle for the shattered realm of Kurald Emurlahn by Shadowthrone, the Crippled God and the Tiste Edur...and I don't even know if that's right!!

I'm not even going to talk about the Draconean business, the Eres'al or the Jade Giants. I'm a skeptical, bitter bastard and quite frankly I think SE is just making this stuff up as he goes along. He has no idea where this story is going or what it is about...I suspect Book 10 will end with a giant clusterfuck that will explain nothing.

4.) No backstory

How exactly does a tavern owner become an Emperor? How does a bar maid become his shadowed killer? Who is Kellanved? Laseen and Nok? How did this people create this empire? How can the Letherii exist for 80,000 plus years as a First Empire colony and not reach the Industrial Revolution? It only took about 8,000 years on Earth from the discovery of agriculture for man to reach space...yet the Letherii don't even know what a stirrup is.

These books have ZERO backstory and that really annoys me. And a friend tells me Night of Knives explains NOTHING. Frankly I could do without SE's endless cynical philosophying that go on for paragraphs after paragraphs and get some I don't know...important details that could allow me to better envision this world.

[Aptorian]

I can see what you mean, but I think your criticism is mostly unjust so I'll play devils advocate.

Iskra;299333 said:

Here are my complaints:

1.) Zero Physical Descriptions

This is the FIRST job of any writer...to make you see his characters and his setting in your head and frankly SE fails utterly in this series. I'm on Book 7and I have NO idea what half of the characters look like. Not even a hint. It's ridiculous.

What do Malazans look like as an ethnicity? What do the Letherii? the Mackros? The Faraed? The Gral? or any of the countless ethnicities mentioned. I still don't know what a Jaghut looks like. The only descriptions I can find are "green skinned, tall, lower tusks" uh...that could be anything...from a green Sabretooth / Wolverine mix to a Barsoon alien. What about the Forkrul Assail? "Multi-jointed"...that's it.

What do they wear? I have trouble imagining Malazan soldiery because I don't know what to imagine. Do they wear Roman style armor? Or medieval plate? Or mail?

While you're right, Erikson doesn't spend a lot of time portraying every character every time you meet them, there's plenty of descriptions of races, appearance and armor. Quite frankly you are simply wrong on that account. You would now if you remembered, there's just so much material it's hard to keep all the details in your head.

Untans and Malazans look similar to western europeans and americans. The Itko Kanese and the Napan are sort of asian looking, the Napans also have blue skin. The Dal Honese range from pitch black almost blue to brown. I think of them as looking like east african tribes people. The Falari are a mixed society having been invaded sometime during the last couple of thousand years. There's big redhaired folk and there's another group I can't remember. Of the Macros we only know Withal, so you'd have to check MT and RG to guess their physical appearance. 7Cs look like a different tribes out of western asia, the middle east and africa. 7C is a big continet.

We've met about six or seven Jaghut, if you can't remember thir appearance it's because you don't remember. We've hardly seen any FAs so it's natural that their appearance is hard to pinpoint but we get lots of info from Calm and Serenity. They are tall and disjointed, every part of their body posses extra joint, hips, chest, arms, legs, everything. They range from blueish to a whitish pale, they are smooth and their faces are quite distinct allthough I can't remember the exact details.

The reason to why you can't figure out the Malazan army "dresscode" is because in the armies we experience, it is virtually non-existant. The veterans, especially when cut off from regular supplies, scavenge the fallen and use what ever they can find. They wear anything and everything, we see this time and time again. The lighest of the marines wear boiled leather, the medium infantry along with the marines seem to use chainmale and lether and the heavies wear plate and chains. But it's all interchangable,

You also have to remember Erikson is writting fantasy, and apparantly even stealthy ninja claws wear chain armor

Iskra;299333 said:

2.) Non-sensical geography and ethnic distribution

I read an interview with SE and he mentioned the Forgotten Realms maps in a mocking tone saying they were simplistic and ill thought. I had to chuckle myself. SE has some balls to make fun of other series' maps when his own world is yet to be fully pictured by Book SEVEN!! And what we do have makes no sense. How can you have ice fields in Quon Tali at the same latitude as scorching deserts in Seven Cities? How can Dal Hon (south Quon Tali) have jungles that close to snowbound steppe (north of the Fenn Mts. )?

And what is the deal with the ethnic disbribution in his world? Why are there black people everywhere? Why is there a snippet of supposedly "Asians" (Kanese) in south Quon Tali? Why do the people of Perish look like the Faraed (blond hair, blue eyes) when they are so widely distributed?

It's a fantasy world where the Jaghut and Storm Riders mess with the climate every second tuesday. Where a mage with enough time and will can fashion any ritual and change the atmosphere. Where seapriests can bend the oceans to their will. Where the Gods can do what ever they see fit.

I'm guessing you're basing your criticism on the map Werthead made and updates every book. You have to remember that while Erikson has said that it's a good map and it's close to his own maps, he hasn't said that all the continent as aligned in the right position.

Iskra;299333 said:

3.) Needlessly complicated plot

I love the twists and turns SE throws at us. I love the multiple storylines converging. I love the surprises. But geez what a horrendously dense and complicated storyline. I'm in Reaper's Gale and I still have no idea what half the characters' motivations are. A war among the gods is constantly mentioned...but that's it. What war? Why are they at war? I thought the Crippled God was the main antagonist. And what about that Crippled God...we only find out about him in Book 3...almost like Book 1 and 2 have nothing to do with the rest of the story.

After 3,000 plus pages of reading all I have is that the Malazan books are about the struggle for the shattered realm of Kurald Emurlahn by Shadowthrone, the Crippled God and the Tiste Edur...and I don't even know if that's right!!

I'm not even going to talk about the Draconean business, the Eres'al or the Jade Giants. I'm a skeptical, bitter bastard and quite frankly I think SE is just making this stuff up as he goes along. He has no idea where this story is going or what it is about...I suspect Book 10 will end with a giant clusterfuck that will explain nothing.

Your frustrations is what makes me love the books. I like the uncertainty. I like the fact that the author doesn't serve everything up to us on a plate like we're a five year old imbicile. I also enjoy the massive complexity of the story, it's like watching someone competing for the Guiness World Record of tangling threads.

Erikson is showing us a world where everything isn't black and white, good against evil, us against them. There's a dozen major threats in the books. Creatures more powerfull than an average god. Things hidden in temples and ancient lands. Old powers more terrifying than the mortals imagine.

And you're right book one and two weren't about the Crippled God. Erikson is playing out 3 or 4 main story arcs and a score more minor ones. The Malazan Books of the Fallen aren't just about the Crippled Gods threat. They are about the Empires struggles, and the Edurs struggles, and the Letherii, and the 7C natives, and the Genebackan people.

I agree with your worry about the story line getting tangled and the ending losing all meaning, but you have to remember, unlike authors such as Robert Jordan and Terry Badkind, Erikson started out planning to write ten books, not just three or five, TEN. He mapped out the story from the beginning. Pinpointing the major conflicts, the end and all the developing elements needed in between. Why do you think all the titles of the books were revealed way before he was even half way through? Of course there's a lot he didn't plan and he's just making up in each book, but the general course is set.

Iskra;299333 said:

4.) No backstory

How exactly does a tavern owner become an Emperor? How does a bar maid become his shadowed killer? Who is Kellanved? Laseen and Nok? How did this people create this empire? How can the Letherii exist for 80,000 plus years as a First Empire colony and not reach the Industrial Revolution? It only took about 8,000 years on Earth from the discovery of agriculture for man to reach space...yet the Letherii don't even know what a stirrup is.

These books have ZERO backstory and that really annoys me. And a friend tells me Night of Knives explains NOTHING. Frankly I could do without SE's endless cynical philosophying that go on for paragraphs after paragraphs and get some I don't know...important details that could allow me to better envision this world.

Zero backstory? Are you kidding me? The books have TONS of backstory. Kellanved and Dancers empires beginning is the backstory. The war on 7C is the backstory. The destruction of Shadow is the backstory. The First Empire is the backstory. The fall of the CG in Kallors empire is the backstory. It goes on and on...

You friend must not actually have read Night of Knives but just the backcover, because many of the mysteries were answered in NoK. We learned what happened to the emperor and dancer and we learned what happened to Dassem. Which was two of the bigger mysteries of the series.

As for the progress of technology and science thing. This is something many fantasy worlds struggle with. The easiest answer is that when you have an abundance of magic users, that can heal and construct and destroy armies with their magic, you don't have the same drive to create new ways to make life more efficient.

There is also the fact that every ten or fifty thousand years or so, a couple of ascendants go apeshit and lay waste to a continent. Destroying civilizations and wiping out entire races. Take 7Cs for example, the place is nearly dead now. It will take thousands upon thousands of years to repopulate the continent...