[gzar]

I vaguely remember when Karsa freed the Jaghut woman, lifting off the stones bound with High Tellann - she commented that he had honed his ignorance into a weapon - the first ever to do so...which I gathered meant he had inadvertently developed a innate magic annulment effective against everything.

Additionally, the few times he is described being assulted with magic he can sense/feel the magic trying to affront him, but he brute-force shrugs off the effects from sheer will. Instances of Ottataral being used by others never results in their describing even realizing they are assulted.

[Brahm_K]

Erikson, although he is now one of my favourite authors, does have several weaknesses which I hope he remedies in the later books. Some of these are:

1. The big bang all out climax. It kind of worked once, but its pretty un-realistic and sometimes annoying when in each climax of each book there's about 500 things going on in one place at the exact same time. This is probably why Deadhouse had the best climax: Things are actually happening apart from each other, and there is no mention of the word "convergence!" It just sometimes seems like Erikson adds something else just for the sake of it.

2. The morose character: Erikson has those characters who enjoy complaining. Then when they're done complaining, they complain some more. After that, they complain a bit more, take a five sentence break, and then possibly complain some more (or, at best [worst?], simply think very depressing thoughts constantly). Mhybe, Silverfox, Seren, I'm talking to you. Can you please gain some other character traits?

3. Everybody's a philosopher. This one isn't too bad, but it just seems weird when nearly everybody uses incredibly complex words, philosophises non-stop, etc..

4. Kruppe.

5. Stuff that has no relevance to the plot or characterisation. This was especially bad in MoI, what with the whole side plot of the two travelling murderers (I can't even remember their names, and though I understand that they're further explored in other short stories, they really had no place in the book), and also the endless pages of Bridgeburner banter which was never witty or entertaining. Luckily, Erikson seems to be growing more witty as we go along, as Midnight Tides was perhaps one of the funniest books I'd ever read.

Well, there we are. It may seem like a lot, but, besides these things, Erikson really is a damned excellent author and the Malazan series probably my second favourite after ASoIaF. Rock on.

And by the way, I'd like to commend you guys for having this thread. Most author communities throw a temper tantrum if you so much as lift a finger against anything in the author's books, but this thread shows excellence on your parts. Good job.

[Folken]

Point 1)...what...you tell me you don't enjoy readhing that? I'm jumping up and down during the 200pg climax

Point 2) The only characters in this novel that complain a whole lot have been Felisin, Mhybe, Paran...point someone else out to me if i missed them

And they ALL have suffered insanely, perhaps Paran not so much, but hes the only stereotypical character in these novels. God I mean Felisin is thrown into hell by her own sister at the age of what...15...16? The crazyness she goes through what do u want her to do?
The Mhybe...she went from 20 to like a 100 in a matter of 1year. Obviously shes going to complain!

Paran...well w/e so he complains. He so bloody cool and he even gets cooler in Bonehunters!

Point 3) Once again...if no one was a philosopher we'd get "dear god why are all his characters so bloody stupid"

point 4) ...yes well he is a love hote character. Hes awesome though lol

Point 5) Really that just makes the story even better, he showing that the world is even bigger than what he just writes about. For example that painter that came up out of the blue after Capustan...no point to the actual story. But he added so much more to it.

[Agraba]

Actually, Jen'Isand'Rul, Paran has suffered. Well, not in the remote sense as Felisin has, but there has been a lot of mental trauma. And there was the time when he denied his position as the master of deck, which made him extraordinarily sick, vomiting blood when nobody was around, having horrible stomach pains and trying too hard to hide it, only to hold the semblance of command; to the point where he invited Gruntle to end his life.

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And by the way, I'd like to commend you guys for having this thread. Most author communities throw a temper tantrum if you so much as lift a finger against anything in the author's books, but this thread shows excellence on your parts. Good job.

Thank you. There are things that need criticism, no matter who the author is. I've been at the Wheel of Time forums, and as many people here know, that series deserves lots more criticism than this one. And yet, when you point out the error in Robert Jordan's writing, you suddenly have tens of avid fans at your throat.

I agree slightly with points 3 and 5. I always found it funny how, even when we have a jihad-style fanatic desert warrior clan (the Whirlwind Rebellion), we have the big leaders contemplating the follies of the notion of vengeance, or discussing "cold iron" against "hot iron". Where are the blindly enraged, close-minded servants to the cause they consider holy and un-negotiable?

And Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, as entertaining as they were, were my least favorite plot threads in Memories of Ice. However, the same doesn't go for Tehol and Bugg, who's antics I enjoyed. I'm very glad those two were in the book.

Ah yes, people either love or hate Kruppe; nobody sees him with a neutral stance. Personally, I love him.

[Brahm_K]

Jen said:

Point 1)...what...you tell me you don't enjoy readhing that? I'm jumping up and down during the 200pg climax

I of course love his climaxes, and its impossible for me to put the book down when I get into them. But, for example, adding the Teblor "coming up from the ground" and fighting the Crimson Guard just took emphasis away from the great dramatic conflict playing out with Rhulad, and to me, at least, weakened the overall effect of the climax. Stuff like that.

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Point 2) The only characters in this novel that complain a whole lot have been Felisin, Mhybe, Paran...point someone else out to me if i missed them

And they ALL have suffered insanely, perhaps Paran not so much, but hes the only stereotypical character in these novels. God I mean Felisin is thrown into hell by her own sister at the age of what...15...16? The crazyness she goes through what do u want her to do?
The Mhybe...she went from 20 to like a 100 in a matter of 1year. Obviously shes going to complain!

Paran...well w/e so he complains. He so bloody cool and he even gets cooler in Bonehunters!

I didn't mention Paran and Felisin, and in fact they are two of my favourite characters. They do whine sometimes, but they have other character traits as well, and don't spend the whole of their POV time whining. Characters like the Mhybe, Silverfox, and Seren to some extent do. Its perfectly understandable that the Mhybe would bitch; what I didn't need to read was 150 pages showing that, yes, she's still whining, and then another chapter, and hey, she's still whining, and then another...

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Point 3) Once again...if no one was a philosopher we'd get "dear god why are all his characters so bloody stupid"

I said that the problem was that everyone was a philosopher, not that some people were. Of course I expect some people to have large vocabularies and complex philosophic views, but my problem is that it seems that nearly everybody does, including soldiers who come from a peasant background. That is not realistic, and can get a bit annoying.

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point 4) ...yes well he is a love hote character. Hes awesome though lol

Fair enough... I did love him in GOTM, but thought he was a bit too there in MoI.

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Point 5) Really that just makes the story even better, he showing that the world is even bigger than what he just writes about. For example that painter that came up out of the blue after Capustan...no point to the actual story. But he added so much more to it.

Things like this are fine in small amounts, but really, a good amount of pages devoted to something which is completely random, does not serve the plot, characterization, or anything, really? That I just call a waste of pages. But to each his own for all.

[Folken]

Well we, for most of part...love those two characters. They're awesome...they're like Q of the Malazan world lol. They know far too much and their entire story is a mystery to us. EVen the novella's we don't really learn much of their origin's...but god its so hard to put the book down lol.

As for the mhybe well fair enough we didn't need all those pgs of her crying...yes i skipped those bits on my kaggilion re-reads of Memories of Ice. But still it adds something to the story in my opinion


@Agraba: Paran's suffering et al. had to do with the blood of the shadow hound he touched or w/e which is causing him to ascend. Nothing to do with him denying the deck. The deck isn't going to punish him for denying it, the deck doesn't care. It choose him and he has no choice lol. So yeah his suffereing ws linked to the blood business and his impending Ascension:D

[Sir Thursday]

For me the mhybe's parts of the story were the only parts I wanted to skip.

Another low point for me was the politics of the people of the Whirlwind. I wasn't entertained by the squabbles of the power players, and that stuff about the Talon being resurrected seemed a bit contrived...there wasn't really enough evidence leading up to the revelation to give it any impact, and I felt that after the Talons had been built up to be so well hidden and dangerous, it was a bit of a let down to see Korbolo Dom at the head of it all.

HoC was a little weaker than the others, IMO... the 14th army just aren't as cool as the Bridgeburners, and Tavore doesn't have the aura nor the personality of say, Dujek or Coltaine. While I really liked Karsa, Trull Sengar is nowhere near as charasmatic or likeable as in MT (for me at least). In fact, his entire plot thread just fizzled away to nothing. He had no battle to fight or anything gripping to finish with. I realise he is important to the overriding plot of the series (allowing MT to be introduced), but it seemed he was chasing a phantom enemy as the threat of the renegades never really materialised.

Apart from that, I am loving every word. The world is rich and original, the characters are for interesting and the climaxes are superb.

[Satan]

an assortment of conan moments in memories of ice (which i've just re-read). like when whiskeyjack dies and korlat goes "...doesn't really like the cold, inhuman power of the dragon. but now she's lost her lover. now she's mad."(paraphrased). that made me cringe that one right there. and there are several more of them in that book. whooiii, i'm never picking that one up again!

[MecnunK]

I guess my main criticism is around undefined magic rules in this universe. Almost anything can happen and can be done. The dead frequently become alive or move into a realm where they can still affect things. Too many super-characters who live for thousands of years....

And when I want whiskeyjack to comeback it doesnt fricking happen!!

[innokenti]

One thing I'd criticise that has come out again in the Bonehunters (which was less of a problem in HoC or MT I believe) is the problem with so so many threads of story when they get bunched up at the end. There is very very little one can do about it and Erikson I think has tried different approaches. There is just too much going on at the end of BH for example, the very central story is the one you want to follow, get to the end of, but the bits on the side are important as well, and then the ones almost entirely unattached. In a way it really speed up the pace and makes the book impossible to put down, but it also means that you really don't get a lot of stuff the first way through.

Encourages re-reading of course, no little thing.

Also, like the last poster - there are problems with too many super-characters. Unavoidable since those characters are so very very very good.

[Jimmy]

Worse one yet. Even more unanswered questions. Damn Erikson.

[Folken]

Okay...? That frustrates you? It's been 5 novels of unanswered questions...

[innokenti]

And I'd say perhaps the most ammount has been answered in BH in terms of global ideas.

[MecnunK]

Yeah BH was good for some explanations and I do not mind the thinking and philosophising from different characters as it gives additional dimensions to their persona and motivations plus helps you connect with them. Actually I think this is a real strength of Erikson's and some really intelligent characters are spread out in his story thus in turn demonstrating his own intelligence. Take Jordan & Martin or some other fantasy authors who just do not have this particular strength. This is not to say I like Duiker and Heborik's endless self indulgent whinning.

oops this is supposed to be criticims thread... David Eddings anyone?

Here is a question: Is there a concept of hell and heaven in Erikson's world. In GOTM someone says hell but I have not seen anything since. Ofcourse all dead go to Hood unless something happens to divert the souls and his realm/warren sounds like hell so is hell the only thing people can look forward to?

[Folken]

Erikson admitted that Hell was an error in the script and he didn't want it there. Other than that...no clue. Hood's Releam is the closest thing I suppose. More like a Hades and the Underworld sort of idea

[Arkmam]

Jen said:

More like a Hades and the Underworld sort of idea

Yeah, that's how I see it as well.

[Red_orbiT]

pennywise said:

My main problem with the novels (and it's been getting worse with each title, though I've yet to read BH) is that Erikson spends way too much time talking about feelings and deeper meanings, and leaving the story out.
Spelling out every single little detail of emotion throws me off. I get bored and start skipping paragraphs.
I love my action of course, and can alawys read through the slower parts of a novel, but Good Lord, the last book was, dare I say it, almost a bore.

Odd... thought pretty much the opposite... guess it's a matter of taste?