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Yeah, sky keeps are hot.
But yeah, I just don't buy the repression of technology due to magic. I can understand that it would slow it down, but seriously... There are so many people in the world. Are you telling me that none of them were at all interested in technology rather than magic? Seems a little far-fetched, to me.
And yes, I know that I'm calling a story in which undead armies live for thousands of years, and characters change into dragons and wield devastating magic far-fetched. =P
Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen
#362 Guest_Malthar_*
Posted 15 December 2005 - 05:51 PM
The only two instances of technological advance I can come up with are localized, and may stem from magical sources to begin with: Moranth munitions, and Darujistans gas lights.
With the proliferation of magic, you can make a case against technology. But, seeing the number of clever folk around in the series, I don't buy it. Even as a foil to magic, technology has a great opportunity to be more advanced. Then there is the more mundane technology that only makes life easier - tilling, harvesting, milling would be top on my list.
Magic has proven unreliable, and there is (almost) always someone who is bigger, badder, and meaner than you. A little gizmo or contraption could make a difference (or you could have some clever inventor end up chained to a wagon for eternity....)
With the proliferation of magic, you can make a case against technology. But, seeing the number of clever folk around in the series, I don't buy it. Even as a foil to magic, technology has a great opportunity to be more advanced. Then there is the more mundane technology that only makes life easier - tilling, harvesting, milling would be top on my list.
Magic has proven unreliable, and there is (almost) always someone who is bigger, badder, and meaner than you. A little gizmo or contraption could make a difference (or you could have some clever inventor end up chained to a wagon for eternity....)
#363 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 15 December 2005 - 08:19 PM
Exactly! The technology just seems too random. These big devices were built to measure time, but no one's created a clock that isn't a sundial or an hourglass?
There's munitions, but no cannons? It just doesn't seem internally consistant, which is my problem. The overall level should be higher than it is. Probably much higher, considering the sheer amount of time that people have been chilling out around this world.
There's munitions, but no cannons? It just doesn't seem internally consistant, which is my problem. The overall level should be higher than it is. Probably much higher, considering the sheer amount of time that people have been chilling out around this world.
#364
Malaclypse 
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Posted 15 December 2005 - 09:12 PM
ok, here goes...
the stagnation and/or repression of technological ‘progress’ in the Malazan world(s)....kya= ‘thousand years ago’
so what are we really looking for here? what's missing? the printing press? gunpowder? factories? fossil fuels? steampunk? techno-magic?
The objection is, I believe, one of consistency. By all means correct me if I'm wrong..the idea being that with all these hundreds of thousands of years of history, the more-or-less medieval technology level is ..inappropriate? A matter of opinion in the first place and the author's prerogative, as in he wanted to write fantasy and not sci-fi, some alternate Earth setting or, gods preserve me...steampunk. He doesn't actually have to explain it, just as GRRM doesn't have to explain why his planet has completely whacked seasons. I’m sure I can find numerous examples if anybody really wants to question it. The sympathetic reader will simply assume that are any number of reasons that might explain the lack of more advanced technology and move on, but since we’re talking about it…
The non-humans don’t count imo…it’s common in fantasy that elves, Ogier, green people or whatever, existed for a lot longer than humans and didn’t develop advanced technology, they just aren’t interested, or something…in fact SE does better than most on this front, for example we know the K’Chain had advanced technology of some sort, the Edur taught the Moranth about munitions (and seemingly lost the knowledge or perhaps access to the necessary materials) and the Barghast had far superior metal at some point in the past, whether of their own manufacture or taught/given to them by another group. Letherii steel is another example of superior technology in the Malazan past, perhaps surviving from the First Empire…without going into a lengthy treatise on the possible loss of technology after the collapse of a dominating empire, suffice it to say…’Dark Age’…we don’t really know how long humans have been around on the Malazan world, but their first civilizations were about 120 kya and that’s really the time frame we’re dealing with…as for the Imass, they are roughly analogous to the Neandertals on Earth, noted for the consistency of their material culture in the archaeological record throughout their tenure on this planet..Homo erectus (pseudo-Eres) even more so…On Earth, anatomically modern humans have been around for about 100 kya (look it up if you don’t believe me) and only invented agriculture and thus the possibility of civilization some 13 kya (roughly) and it’s widely accepted that this was a direct response to significant climate change, ie., the end of the last Ice Age and subsequent sea level rise, pushing groups of people from their rich, coastal environments into less resource-dense areas of the interior and forcing them to innovate or die in large numbers. The point I’m trying to make is that humans seem to be conservative with regard to their lifeways, ie., ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’, which sadly ensures that it will break at some point, but that’s just my opinion. In the absence of significant and imminent pressure, people will tend to do what their parents did. The modern human situation isn’t really applicable, imo…if the impetus (and therefore the support) to start making machines, invent non-magical weapons technology, discover new forms of energy and locomotion, etc. isn’t there to start with , there’s nothing to build on. Not to mention the fact that coal, saltpeter, or other materials necessary to our particular technological development may be unavailable or scarce on the Malazan world(s).
With all this in mind, it’s not so hard to imagine how the availability of magic would stifle technological progress. Why would anyone spend the time and effort it takes to truly innovate if an existing solution is already at hand?
And Gode, munitions are not like gunpowder… instead of propelling a projectile, a cannon would blow up entirely and how do you know there aren’t any clocks? In order for there to be ‘bells’ in the timekeeping sense, there has to be something that rings the bell at the appropriate time somewhere. Just because SE doesn’t go into long descriptions of technology doesn’t mean it’s not there in the background
More could certainly be said on this topic if anybody wants to get into a serious analysis, but that’s it for now
edit: Mathar..tilling and harvesting are absolutely necessary for civilization to exist at all...land can't support such concentrations of people w/out full-on agriculture and there's no reason to think there's no milling on the Malazan world, there just haven't been any juicy 'miller's daughter' storythreads thusfar
the stagnation and/or repression of technological ‘progress’ in the Malazan world(s)....kya= ‘thousand years ago’
so what are we really looking for here? what's missing? the printing press? gunpowder? factories? fossil fuels? steampunk? techno-magic?
The objection is, I believe, one of consistency. By all means correct me if I'm wrong..the idea being that with all these hundreds of thousands of years of history, the more-or-less medieval technology level is ..inappropriate? A matter of opinion in the first place and the author's prerogative, as in he wanted to write fantasy and not sci-fi, some alternate Earth setting or, gods preserve me...steampunk. He doesn't actually have to explain it, just as GRRM doesn't have to explain why his planet has completely whacked seasons. I’m sure I can find numerous examples if anybody really wants to question it. The sympathetic reader will simply assume that are any number of reasons that might explain the lack of more advanced technology and move on, but since we’re talking about it…
The non-humans don’t count imo…it’s common in fantasy that elves, Ogier, green people or whatever, existed for a lot longer than humans and didn’t develop advanced technology, they just aren’t interested, or something…in fact SE does better than most on this front, for example we know the K’Chain had advanced technology of some sort, the Edur taught the Moranth about munitions (and seemingly lost the knowledge or perhaps access to the necessary materials) and the Barghast had far superior metal at some point in the past, whether of their own manufacture or taught/given to them by another group. Letherii steel is another example of superior technology in the Malazan past, perhaps surviving from the First Empire…without going into a lengthy treatise on the possible loss of technology after the collapse of a dominating empire, suffice it to say…’Dark Age’…we don’t really know how long humans have been around on the Malazan world, but their first civilizations were about 120 kya and that’s really the time frame we’re dealing with…as for the Imass, they are roughly analogous to the Neandertals on Earth, noted for the consistency of their material culture in the archaeological record throughout their tenure on this planet..Homo erectus (pseudo-Eres) even more so…On Earth, anatomically modern humans have been around for about 100 kya (look it up if you don’t believe me) and only invented agriculture and thus the possibility of civilization some 13 kya (roughly) and it’s widely accepted that this was a direct response to significant climate change, ie., the end of the last Ice Age and subsequent sea level rise, pushing groups of people from their rich, coastal environments into less resource-dense areas of the interior and forcing them to innovate or die in large numbers. The point I’m trying to make is that humans seem to be conservative with regard to their lifeways, ie., ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’, which sadly ensures that it will break at some point, but that’s just my opinion. In the absence of significant and imminent pressure, people will tend to do what their parents did. The modern human situation isn’t really applicable, imo…if the impetus (and therefore the support) to start making machines, invent non-magical weapons technology, discover new forms of energy and locomotion, etc. isn’t there to start with , there’s nothing to build on. Not to mention the fact that coal, saltpeter, or other materials necessary to our particular technological development may be unavailable or scarce on the Malazan world(s).
With all this in mind, it’s not so hard to imagine how the availability of magic would stifle technological progress. Why would anyone spend the time and effort it takes to truly innovate if an existing solution is already at hand?
And Gode, munitions are not like gunpowder… instead of propelling a projectile, a cannon would blow up entirely and how do you know there aren’t any clocks? In order for there to be ‘bells’ in the timekeeping sense, there has to be something that rings the bell at the appropriate time somewhere. Just because SE doesn’t go into long descriptions of technology doesn’t mean it’s not there in the background
More could certainly be said on this topic if anybody wants to get into a serious analysis, but that’s it for now
edit: Mathar..tilling and harvesting are absolutely necessary for civilization to exist at all...land can't support such concentrations of people w/out full-on agriculture and there's no reason to think there's no milling on the Malazan world, there just haven't been any juicy 'miller's daughter' storythreads thusfar
#365 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 15 December 2005 - 10:07 PM
Well, you make a few valid points, but allow me to rebut.
First of all, technological progress is almost like an exponential increase. It starts off very slowly, in which new advances come every 50 to 100 years, if that. The more momentum it gains, the faster new things appear. You need only look at our society to see that nearly every day, something new comes around.
While I agree that we can discount non-humans, my real beef comes in the human aspect. We have lots of humans here on Earth, and can safely assume that despite being shaped by our environment, SE's world is similar enough in most instances to allow a comparison. In our own history, we did indeed have a Dark Ages, but it didn't last nearly as long as SE's proposed time.
It may quite possibly be human nature to not fix it if it ain't broke, but at the same time, people will always strive for upward mobility, and technology is a definite way to achieve that. Unless there's been some deliberate squelching of that, which I don't see evidence of.
You may point out that the human empire was shattered, technology was lost, etc. As a counterpoint example, I'm going to point to Letheras, which was supposedly a colony from the first empire, which was excluded from the destruction. That means that first of all, they existed during the time of the first empire, and were thus privvy to any technological advances contained therein, but that they've had a crapload of a long time to come up with new stuff. And yet, to all appearances, they haven't.
And I also beg to differ on the topic of gunpowder. The earliest gunpowder, black powder, WAS a form of explosive, in very small quantities. The way to create a gun is to cast a very strong metal tube. Leave a small hole for a fuse. Put just enough gunpowder inside the tube so as not to rupture the tube when it's ignited, and then slide in some kind of projectile, usually a ball. This is obviously easier to do in large scale, especially with the tools that they have, which is why I brought up a cannon rather than a rifle. Nowadays, gunpowder isn't actually explosive, and just releases a gas.
And by clocks, I mean household clocks. I'm sure there's probably one town clock somewhere, which is huge. But if something's big, I'm sure it can be made smaller. If they can create full plate armor, I'm sure they can create the parts necessary for a clock. Anyway, I was just using that as an off-handed example.
I don't believe we've seen any indications of indoor plumbing, though that could just be my faulty memory.
Anyway, my point is that despite any lack of similar materials to Earth, I believe that humanity would find a way. They'd improvise. I mean, someone can only be a farmer for so long before thinking, "Man, I wish I had something that could help me plow these fields." And thus, the plow was created. All it takes is one person.
It seems to me that regardless of what obstacles are in the way, humanity has reached a sufficient technological advancement that new advances should come fairly quickly. Over periods of 20 years, maybe, not thousands. These humans clearly aren't neanderthals, nor are they hunter/gatherers. They aren't even Homo Sapien, they're Homo Sapien Sapien.
Which is my problem.
First of all, technological progress is almost like an exponential increase. It starts off very slowly, in which new advances come every 50 to 100 years, if that. The more momentum it gains, the faster new things appear. You need only look at our society to see that nearly every day, something new comes around.
While I agree that we can discount non-humans, my real beef comes in the human aspect. We have lots of humans here on Earth, and can safely assume that despite being shaped by our environment, SE's world is similar enough in most instances to allow a comparison. In our own history, we did indeed have a Dark Ages, but it didn't last nearly as long as SE's proposed time.
It may quite possibly be human nature to not fix it if it ain't broke, but at the same time, people will always strive for upward mobility, and technology is a definite way to achieve that. Unless there's been some deliberate squelching of that, which I don't see evidence of.
You may point out that the human empire was shattered, technology was lost, etc. As a counterpoint example, I'm going to point to Letheras, which was supposedly a colony from the first empire, which was excluded from the destruction. That means that first of all, they existed during the time of the first empire, and were thus privvy to any technological advances contained therein, but that they've had a crapload of a long time to come up with new stuff. And yet, to all appearances, they haven't.
And I also beg to differ on the topic of gunpowder. The earliest gunpowder, black powder, WAS a form of explosive, in very small quantities. The way to create a gun is to cast a very strong metal tube. Leave a small hole for a fuse. Put just enough gunpowder inside the tube so as not to rupture the tube when it's ignited, and then slide in some kind of projectile, usually a ball. This is obviously easier to do in large scale, especially with the tools that they have, which is why I brought up a cannon rather than a rifle. Nowadays, gunpowder isn't actually explosive, and just releases a gas.
And by clocks, I mean household clocks. I'm sure there's probably one town clock somewhere, which is huge. But if something's big, I'm sure it can be made smaller. If they can create full plate armor, I'm sure they can create the parts necessary for a clock. Anyway, I was just using that as an off-handed example.
I don't believe we've seen any indications of indoor plumbing, though that could just be my faulty memory.
Anyway, my point is that despite any lack of similar materials to Earth, I believe that humanity would find a way. They'd improvise. I mean, someone can only be a farmer for so long before thinking, "Man, I wish I had something that could help me plow these fields." And thus, the plow was created. All it takes is one person.
It seems to me that regardless of what obstacles are in the way, humanity has reached a sufficient technological advancement that new advances should come fairly quickly. Over periods of 20 years, maybe, not thousands. These humans clearly aren't neanderthals, nor are they hunter/gatherers. They aren't even Homo Sapien, they're Homo Sapien Sapien.
Which is my problem.
#366
Valgard
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Posted 15 December 2005 - 11:17 PM
I would just like to add to rebut the rebuttal that you are thinking of world history in terms of the western world. China developped significantly ahead of the west and then all development stopped they stagnated. This happened also to the Middle eastern and north african islamic civilisations, when they stopped developping new ideas and decided things are ok as they are. This is what may have happened to the civilisation in Eriksons world.
As to Gunpowder don't forget that the chinese had invented this long before the europeans got there hands on it. They used the gunpowder remarkably like the malazans use the moranth ammunitions e.g grenades and explosives not as guns which they never really invented. (there were some but these were very late long after the europeans had developped them and they were badly made)
Also there could be indoor plumbing in many of the cities and I think that Karsa and Leoman maybe use sewers to escape from the city or something like this, but indoor plumbing is not really something that come up in a book unless it is to make the point that it is there or isn't since there hasn't been any indication one way or the other we can't say but I think that there is some limited plumbing involved e.gl. equivalent to roman times.
The level of technological advancement is linked to the culture in which it is found as I have said already china and the califrates stagnated and did not develop at all in approx 400 years till they were introduced to the west e.g. colonisation in the 19th century. So it is not a progression of man moving from strength to strength always reach further but more hit and miss. And lots of Eriksons cultures missed.
Then when you include magic that allows for many usefull things that technology would otherwise do why bother advancing if there is something else that does it already.
As to Gunpowder don't forget that the chinese had invented this long before the europeans got there hands on it. They used the gunpowder remarkably like the malazans use the moranth ammunitions e.g grenades and explosives not as guns which they never really invented. (there were some but these were very late long after the europeans had developped them and they were badly made)
Also there could be indoor plumbing in many of the cities and I think that Karsa and Leoman maybe use sewers to escape from the city or something like this, but indoor plumbing is not really something that come up in a book unless it is to make the point that it is there or isn't since there hasn't been any indication one way or the other we can't say but I think that there is some limited plumbing involved e.gl. equivalent to roman times.
The level of technological advancement is linked to the culture in which it is found as I have said already china and the califrates stagnated and did not develop at all in approx 400 years till they were introduced to the west e.g. colonisation in the 19th century. So it is not a progression of man moving from strength to strength always reach further but more hit and miss. And lots of Eriksons cultures missed.
Then when you include magic that allows for many usefull things that technology would otherwise do why bother advancing if there is something else that does it already.
#367 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 15 December 2005 - 11:26 PM
I understand all of that, Valgard, and don't think that it hadn't occurred to me. But SE's humans are of a European mindset, not a Chinese mindset. The Edur I could understand not developing technology, as they have a very insular, tribal-type society.
But the Letherii? Totally capitalist in every respect, and I can see no reason why there wouldn't be more advances made. The Malazans, too. There's no hint of any sort of the influences found in China which contributed to the stagnation of their technology.
So, yes, the level of advancement depends on the culture in which it is found, but SE has portrayed a culture which SHOULD possess the drive to create new tech, as it seems to be based more off of the European model.
But the Letherii? Totally capitalist in every respect, and I can see no reason why there wouldn't be more advances made. The Malazans, too. There's no hint of any sort of the influences found in China which contributed to the stagnation of their technology.
So, yes, the level of advancement depends on the culture in which it is found, but SE has portrayed a culture which SHOULD possess the drive to create new tech, as it seems to be based more off of the European model.
#368
Trotts
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Posted 16 December 2005 - 01:25 AM
some possibile explanations:
id say a lot of our technology came from the development of the steam engine (at the very least, it was a pinnacle achievement). but whats the point of a steam powered train, when you can just warren from a to b right?
also, the gunpowder issue, lets suppose that the edur had that knowledge, but didnt really use it too much because they relied more on magic. then they passed that knowledge down to the moranth. the moranth could have developed guns and cannons, but what would be the point? the mornath have quorls, so they could simply fly overtop of the enemy and bomb them that way, hence the munitions we see today.
i assume the malazan empire hasent developed any kind of weaponry based on the munitions because the moranth havent shared it, they just supply (and likely taking apart a munition would lead to its detonation)
id say a lot of our technology came from the development of the steam engine (at the very least, it was a pinnacle achievement). but whats the point of a steam powered train, when you can just warren from a to b right?
also, the gunpowder issue, lets suppose that the edur had that knowledge, but didnt really use it too much because they relied more on magic. then they passed that knowledge down to the moranth. the moranth could have developed guns and cannons, but what would be the point? the mornath have quorls, so they could simply fly overtop of the enemy and bomb them that way, hence the munitions we see today.
i assume the malazan empire hasent developed any kind of weaponry based on the munitions because the moranth havent shared it, they just supply (and likely taking apart a munition would lead to its detonation)
#369 Guest_Malthar_*
Posted 16 December 2005 - 02:18 AM
Malaclypse said:
edit: Mathar..tilling and harvesting are absolutely necessary for civilization to exist at all...land can't support such concentrations of people w/out full-on agriculture and there's no reason to think there's no milling on the Malazan world, there just haven't been any juicy 'miller's daughter' storythreads thusfar
Good points.
But what I meant was that technology usually releived the burdens on the agricultural classes. Milling and tilling are necessary, but they are only one step on the technology ladder (not to sound like a game of Civilization) toward sustaining an empire's populace.
Then again, I don't want SE to dedicate chapter to crop rotation and irrigation. Though they would be badass sections, but more like Robert Jordan territory.
#370 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 16 December 2005 - 05:56 AM
I think that people are getting a skewed idea of the amount of magic that exists in SE's world, because the characters who get featured in the stories are exposed to unnaturally high doses of magic. Be it in the form of mages, or spellcasting dragons.
The common man has no more access to warrens than I have access to Keith Richards. Sure, I could happen across Keith Richards someday randomly, and I may be able to seek him out if I tried hard enough. But I'd have to try REALLY hard. I've seen no evidence at all that there's any sort of mass transit either within cities or between cities. You'd think that one of the main focuses of an empire would be mass communication and mass transit. It would only make sense, at least.
Yes, the Moranth only gave them munitions recently, so they haven't had time to refine them. But why did it take the Moranth to give them explosives? Is humanity incapable of blowing things up on its own? Not to mention, mind you, that the sappers seem SO into what they're doing that I'd expect them to pretty quickly come up with new and interesting uses for the explosives. Again, the cannon comes to mind fairly quickly.
As to our technology being tied to the steam engine, I don't think that that's an accurate statement. The steam engine served as a sort of benchmark. Every now and then there's a new development that allows the advancement of technology to progress into a new area. Steam engine. Gasoline engines. Computer chips. They're all similar benchmarks.
I see very few benchmark technologies in SE's world.
The common man has no more access to warrens than I have access to Keith Richards. Sure, I could happen across Keith Richards someday randomly, and I may be able to seek him out if I tried hard enough. But I'd have to try REALLY hard. I've seen no evidence at all that there's any sort of mass transit either within cities or between cities. You'd think that one of the main focuses of an empire would be mass communication and mass transit. It would only make sense, at least.
Yes, the Moranth only gave them munitions recently, so they haven't had time to refine them. But why did it take the Moranth to give them explosives? Is humanity incapable of blowing things up on its own? Not to mention, mind you, that the sappers seem SO into what they're doing that I'd expect them to pretty quickly come up with new and interesting uses for the explosives. Again, the cannon comes to mind fairly quickly.
As to our technology being tied to the steam engine, I don't think that that's an accurate statement. The steam engine served as a sort of benchmark. Every now and then there's a new development that allows the advancement of technology to progress into a new area. Steam engine. Gasoline engines. Computer chips. They're all similar benchmarks.
I see very few benchmark technologies in SE's world.
#371
Trotts
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Posted 16 December 2005 - 06:00 AM
ill agree that the commoner doesnt get much magic, but the rich and influential certainly seem to have access to some amount of magic, and since it would be people on top who would provide the r&d funding, and since they wouldnt have much need because of their access, things never developed
however, the malazan empire is supposed to be a very progressive one, so i gotta agree, how is there no r&d section? laseen is shrewd but not stupid, so whats goin on?
and i also agree that sappers should be crazy enough to try some reverse engineering action.
however, the malazan empire is supposed to be a very progressive one, so i gotta agree, how is there no r&d section? laseen is shrewd but not stupid, so whats goin on?
and i also agree that sappers should be crazy enough to try some reverse engineering action.
#372 Guest_Malthar_*
Posted 16 December 2005 - 01:56 PM
We did see some advancement with the Moranth munitions, but it's a small step. Was it Fiddler or Hedge who modified a crossbow to fire an arrow-mounted munition? Or do I only recall them using one? I recall a comment that it wasn't standard issue.
Given time, I'm sure they will come up with clever uses.
There are sappers - they must have some options to assault walls besides undermining. A trebuchet slung munition would be a better wall breacher than having a squad running up to a wall with a cusser. Faster than mining too. As we've seen, the tunels offer no protection from sorcery, so there's no benefit to use only that approach.
Given time, I'm sure they will come up with clever uses.
There are sappers - they must have some options to assault walls besides undermining. A trebuchet slung munition would be a better wall breacher than having a squad running up to a wall with a cusser. Faster than mining too. As we've seen, the tunels offer no protection from sorcery, so there's no benefit to use only that approach.
#373 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 16 December 2005 - 02:23 PM
It was fiddler. But yeah, reverse engineering ftw.
And you guys bring up good points. I don't know that Erikson actually put any thought into the technological advancement of the cultures. Rather, he decided on what level of technology he wanted to write about, and then proceeded to make it so.
Which is kind of strange, considering that he's an anthropologist, and thus should be entirely familiar with the momentum of technology. Perhaps he just decided that magic would be a good enough reason to slow it down, and left it at that. Or any of the other reasons that the defenders have brought up in this thread. I mean, those are good reasons, and probably sufficed for SE.
However, due to the points that I've brought up over the last few posts, I disagree. People take the fantasy genre for granted too much, these days, and don't expect it to make complete sense.
Anyway, that's my criticism of SE.
And you guys bring up good points. I don't know that Erikson actually put any thought into the technological advancement of the cultures. Rather, he decided on what level of technology he wanted to write about, and then proceeded to make it so.
Which is kind of strange, considering that he's an anthropologist, and thus should be entirely familiar with the momentum of technology. Perhaps he just decided that magic would be a good enough reason to slow it down, and left it at that. Or any of the other reasons that the defenders have brought up in this thread. I mean, those are good reasons, and probably sufficed for SE.
However, due to the points that I've brought up over the last few posts, I disagree. People take the fantasy genre for granted too much, these days, and don't expect it to make complete sense.
Anyway, that's my criticism of SE.
#374
Folken
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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:30 PM
"People take the fantasy genre for granted too much, these days, and don't expect it to make complete sense."
Would you also like there to be logic behind how Moon's Spawn, a giant mountian, floats?
Would you also like there to be logic behind how Moon's Spawn, a giant mountian, floats?
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#376
Folken
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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:40 PM
I was just making a point Troots;)
I know there is machinery involved in Moon's Spawn. The KCC were a highly technologically advanced race. That's just the point, the books would be a few thousand pages long if SE went into explaining every little detail. There is a story to be told. We don't need to know if there is a transit system within the empire or if people have watches or Moon's Spawn is powered by some anti gravity field. This is a novel within the Fantasy genre not Sci-Fi, where such things are expected.
I know there is machinery involved in Moon's Spawn. The KCC were a highly technologically advanced race. That's just the point, the books would be a few thousand pages long if SE went into explaining every little detail. There is a story to be told. We don't need to know if there is a transit system within the empire or if people have watches or Moon's Spawn is powered by some anti gravity field. This is a novel within the Fantasy genre not Sci-Fi, where such things are expected.
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#377 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:44 PM
Jen said:
"People take the fantasy genre for granted too much, these days, and don't expect it to make complete sense."
Would you also like there to be logic behind how Moon's Spawn, a giant mountian, floats?
Would you also like there to be logic behind how Moon's Spawn, a giant mountian, floats?
All you have to say is "alien technology" or "magic". It doesn't need to be an intricate explanation of exactly how everything functions. However, when you import something from real life, you have to handle a burden. And that burden is making us, the readers, believe what you're trying to tell us.
For instance, if you said that a trogg was a creature with four legs, and it hopped from place to place, okay, that's fine. No more explanation needed. However, if you said that a dog was a creature with four legs, and it hopped from place to place... Well, we know dogs. Dogs don't hop.
That's what happens when you use things from real life, even if it's something as ubiquitous as humanity. We know how humans behave, because we're exposed to them constantly, day and night. Tiste Andii can do whatever they want. The Moranth can do whatever they want. However, the humans can only act within certain guidelines.
#378
Illuyankas
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 01:28 PM
You know how humans behave, subjected to the same influences as you. Most of these people live in a cross between medieval and Renissance? society, where rampaging armies and painful sorcerous death - hell, magic - are commonplace. They're as removed from you as the Andii are.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#379
Imperial Historian
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 08:08 PM
Ok I'll throw my two cents in here...
pre the malazan era, which is realitivley recent... the emprie was founded 100 years ago and has spread to most places, including seven cities realitively recently (within a generation), pre those events the majority of the world was scattered city states, there would be no real need for the mass communication, cheap mass transport etc so it's unlikley to come about as mages would seem to be able to provide that sort of thing.
Now lets look at why there has been no real technological advancement... first think about all the really smart people we have met... the only one I can think of who WASN'T a mage is Tehol, Sorry even equates smartness with magical ability when looking at Kruppe, so that suggests that most clever people become mages, so if the majority of smart people are mages... the number of people coming up with clever non-magical solutions is going to be heavily curtailed.
As to Letheras society... I can't see why you think that's a progressive society, the way I see it the Letheras are convinced that everything they have is the pinnacle of what can be achieved, and so don't attempt to improve it (as can be seen by there attitude to horses, there was no attemptto develop better stirrups, they saw the stirrups that the bluerose people used, acknowledged them as worthless and as such discounted using horses) All there technology seems to have been developed back in the mists of time and with most of the smart people becoming mages thats where the advancement is... not with mundane technology.
Now I can see why you would think that technology must advance a lot, especially when exposed to todays society of constant advancement, but the society of today is in itself an exception, for most of history technological advancement has been slow.
So in a world where magic is so prevalent, why would technology develop? After all why would you spend time developing primitive medicine, when a healer using his warren would be 100 times as effective, so with the pressures exerted on the people in the malazan world the status quo on technology is I think understandable.
Oh and since SE hasn't given us much info on a lot of things, i wouldn't be suprised if advancement in somethings isn't very advanced if not in the way we would understand, for example advances in forging sound far in advance of us, and I wouldn't be suprised if other areas have advanced by such large extents in for example agriclture, if not in the same way we would consdier advancement.
And I'd say SE has put some thought into why technology is at this level, he's given us some explainations somewhere before in the Q&A thread.
And addressing a few specifci points:
To develop explosives such as gunpowder you need either saltpetre or a knowledge of chemistry. Now saltpetre may not be present in the malazan world, so explosves wouldn't be developed by that route.
As for chemistry.... early chemistry here was pushed forward mainly by alchemists seeking to turn things into gold... now in the malazan world any sensible person seeking to term lead into gold would simply find a user of tennes and get them to turn into gold hey presto, so theres no imetous into developing chemistry which leads to explosives and many other things.
The sappers don't have "explosives" they have thigns which explode, they can't control the size of the explosion they have something which will blow up with said amount of force, turning something like that into a cannon is prety difficult... and pretty pointless when you could do much more damage by chucking that explosive at a wall, with munitions so rare you'd be unlikely to spend much time trying to amke somethign even remotely like a cannon.
Oh and I would say that munitions are not exactly explosives to me, especially not gunpowder based they sound like magic of some sort is involved in there construction, though maybe not a lot, especially seeing as how there explosion will hone in on open warrens.
Munitions sound like they are made from some mixture of chemicals which will explode upon contact with air, and I suspect magic of some sort is used ot make them.
As for lasseens R&D branch... in a world where advancement is mainly magical not technological... her R&D branch is almost certainly made entirely out of mages.
That'll do for now.
pre the malazan era, which is realitivley recent... the emprie was founded 100 years ago and has spread to most places, including seven cities realitively recently (within a generation), pre those events the majority of the world was scattered city states, there would be no real need for the mass communication, cheap mass transport etc so it's unlikley to come about as mages would seem to be able to provide that sort of thing.
Now lets look at why there has been no real technological advancement... first think about all the really smart people we have met... the only one I can think of who WASN'T a mage is Tehol, Sorry even equates smartness with magical ability when looking at Kruppe, so that suggests that most clever people become mages, so if the majority of smart people are mages... the number of people coming up with clever non-magical solutions is going to be heavily curtailed.
As to Letheras society... I can't see why you think that's a progressive society, the way I see it the Letheras are convinced that everything they have is the pinnacle of what can be achieved, and so don't attempt to improve it (as can be seen by there attitude to horses, there was no attemptto develop better stirrups, they saw the stirrups that the bluerose people used, acknowledged them as worthless and as such discounted using horses) All there technology seems to have been developed back in the mists of time and with most of the smart people becoming mages thats where the advancement is... not with mundane technology.
Now I can see why you would think that technology must advance a lot, especially when exposed to todays society of constant advancement, but the society of today is in itself an exception, for most of history technological advancement has been slow.
So in a world where magic is so prevalent, why would technology develop? After all why would you spend time developing primitive medicine, when a healer using his warren would be 100 times as effective, so with the pressures exerted on the people in the malazan world the status quo on technology is I think understandable.
Oh and since SE hasn't given us much info on a lot of things, i wouldn't be suprised if advancement in somethings isn't very advanced if not in the way we would understand, for example advances in forging sound far in advance of us, and I wouldn't be suprised if other areas have advanced by such large extents in for example agriclture, if not in the same way we would consdier advancement.
And I'd say SE has put some thought into why technology is at this level, he's given us some explainations somewhere before in the Q&A thread.
And addressing a few specifci points:
Quote
Is humanity incapable of blowing things up on its own?
To develop explosives such as gunpowder you need either saltpetre or a knowledge of chemistry. Now saltpetre may not be present in the malazan world, so explosves wouldn't be developed by that route.
As for chemistry.... early chemistry here was pushed forward mainly by alchemists seeking to turn things into gold... now in the malazan world any sensible person seeking to term lead into gold would simply find a user of tennes and get them to turn into gold hey presto, so theres no imetous into developing chemistry which leads to explosives and many other things.
Quote
Not to mention, mind you, that the sappers seem SO into what they're doing that I'd expect them to pretty quickly come up with new and interesting uses for the explosives. Again, the cannon comes to mind fairly quickly.
The sappers don't have "explosives" they have thigns which explode, they can't control the size of the explosion they have something which will blow up with said amount of force, turning something like that into a cannon is prety difficult... and pretty pointless when you could do much more damage by chucking that explosive at a wall, with munitions so rare you'd be unlikely to spend much time trying to amke somethign even remotely like a cannon.
Oh and I would say that munitions are not exactly explosives to me, especially not gunpowder based they sound like magic of some sort is involved in there construction, though maybe not a lot, especially seeing as how there explosion will hone in on open warrens.
Munitions sound like they are made from some mixture of chemicals which will explode upon contact with air, and I suspect magic of some sort is used ot make them.
As for lasseens R&D branch... in a world where advancement is mainly magical not technological... her R&D branch is almost certainly made entirely out of mages.
That'll do for now.
#380
Morgoth
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 11:15 PM
Also, on the cannon point, the chinese had gunpowder for a long time yet they did not develope cannons as such. One cannot just assume that branches of thought we find obvious today, would be as obvious then. for instance, physics as a path of knowledge in the malazan world is not very advanced I think, especially when magic is able to break most if not all laws of physics we know. It's difficult to discover rules when they can all so easily be broken.
And, Modesitt jr. does adress another argument for why weapons such as cannons would not be as usefull in a world with magic. How easy would it not be, even for a mage knowing only a few cantrips, to ignite the gunpowder of the enemy cannons? They're fairly obvious targets after all
And, Modesitt jr. does adress another argument for why weapons such as cannons would not be as usefull in a world with magic. How easy would it not be, even for a mage knowing only a few cantrips, to ignite the gunpowder of the enemy cannons? They're fairly obvious targets after all
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
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To speak friendly, Even to the devil
