[Folken]

Fine so I stand corrected...nevertheless its not as if the entire novel is painted in black and white. So whoever compalined in the first place...stop it:p
But anyone care to jog my memory on this Jhistal fellow? Is he from DG?

[Hume]

The Jhistal is Mallick Rel.
He was one of the main rulers of Aren before he publicly turned to the rebellion.

Though personally I would only say Kallor, Bidithal, Raest and That Finnad I mentioned are the only pure evil ones in the book.
Though Raest appears to have redeemed hiself in taking gaurdianship service.

[Tiste Simeon]

Jen said:

Fine so I stand corrected...nevertheless its not as if the entire novel is painted in black and white. So whoever compalined in the first place...stop it:p
But anyone care to jog my memory on this Jhistal fellow? Is he from DG?

Firstly... Folken was wrong on something? :eek:
Secondly the Jhistal was in DG - Mallick Rel or something his name was...

[Trotts]

no slandering of raest!! and that finnad was gerun eberict

and i definetly agree that there arent really black and white evil characters. characters do things based on their experiences and how theyve been treated. in fact, i dunno if i can exactly say the cg is evil. a bunch of mages tear him from his realm, and then hes just chained in place because of that? id be pissed too

[Tiste Simeon]

Trotts said:

no slandering of raest!! and that finnad was gerun eberict

and i definetly agree that there arent really black and white evil characters. characters do things based on their experiences and how theyve been treated. in fact, i dunno if i can exactly say the cg is evil. a bunch of mages tear him from his realm, and then hes just chained in place because of that? id be pissed too

I dunno... Some might say Icarium is evil... but we know him to be misunderstood. What you're saying is that CG is misunderstood as well? Hmm... Maybe, but perhaps ripping him out of his realm suddenly freed everyone he was oppressing in his own realm... So once they get rid of him here, two realms have been liberated from his evil!

Plus, Pust is straight out pure evil. I want him to die...

[Agraba]

Quote

by the end of moi, i wanted pannion to kick kilavas ass, lol

That's different from hoping his side will win (which is hoping that the cannibals and necropheliacs overrun the Malazans and build the Seer's empire). Did you hope for that? The Seer's side was the "evil" side of MoI.

And if you want to get into the semantics of things, there's no real such thing as evil. Every single act in all of history, and at all possible is done with self-justification, even if the justification is poor. But, as someone mentioned, the Crippled God's actions aren't evil because it is built into his subconscious that those actions are his perogative given the suffering he's been through. You can say Hitler's actions weren't inherently evil, because, built into his subconscious mind, it was his perogative to right a wrong that the Alliance has done to Germany in the Versailles treaty, and to right the wrong that jews do to the economy. So, by that, you can say that in Kallor's subcionscious, and possibly conscious mind, he is entirely justified in proliferating the suffering that the world was especially built to inflict upon him. And that Raest, bereft of what naturally gives him pleasure; owning other people, has in his mind the right to try and attain that pleasure that the world denies him of.

So are any of the characters, in any book or series evil? Well I can only say yes for those dark lords who are composed of the very essence of a soul's dark side, (like in Wheel of Time, or Silmarillion) but the very notion doesn't even make sense, and that ain't Erickson's style, so the answer for A Malazan Book of the Fallen is no. But when reading a Malazan book, can we draw out clearly which is the side that we hope will win? The answer is yes, there's always a side that readers will hope to win, and sometimes it's somewhat predictable who will win by narrative style, even if Erickson gives statistical odds against that side (like in Midnight Tides).

And Trull Sengar said to his Imass companion that the Edur are working for a new evil force, and are, to the world's danger, expanding the empire of this new evil. It's, of course, strongly implied that this evil is the Crippled God (I think Trull even says that, but I can't remember). The very fact that they're expanding this empire with this new evil indicates to us that they coquered the Lethers. And if that's not enough, in the prologue of HoC, Rhulad mentions that they've scattered their enemies, and most people are begging to become their slaves. We don't know that it's Rhulad at the time, nor do we know that they're talking about Letheras, but as soon as we see the conflict of Midnight Tides in the first few hundred pages, we say "oh yeah!"

[Danforth]

By showing the Pannions as 'evil' or 'more evil than other peoples' it tells us that CG is 'evil' or 'more evil than other Gods' not the culture on its own, this depiction of more evil characters helps us identify the CG as the enemy, same case with MT. In fantasy you always need an enemy or nemesis, or there would be no point in the story, however much you explain the 'grey areas' there will always be a 'dark lord' and that is the CG.

[krupke]

Bauchelain and Korbal Broach. I hated them two but even so they seem pretty damn dark hearted

[Danforth]

Why do you Hate Korbal and Bauchelin? I thought they were great characters, they bought alot of comedy to the story, a bit of black humour never goes amiss.

[Morgoth]

the Pannion Seer was not evil. His actions may be considered as evil, if you accept the excistance of such a thing as evil, but the Seer himself was not. If i'd been put through inhuman suffering for aeons for no better reason than that I was born, I would also have had a serious grudge against the world.

[Danforth]

You cannot deny that the CG actions are evil, but why cant he just kick the people who chained him rather than lashing out at the whole world. I realise the Seer isn't evil because he was only used but people who didn't know would see him as evil, this is the reason why Dujek and Brood went to destroy the Pannion Domin though wasn't it?

[Morgoth]

The CG was pulled from his realm, ripped asunder and chained in place to live the rest of his excistance in terrible agony, all because he happend to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. His suffering made him lose his mind long ago. He is no longer able to distinguish between those who chained him and those who had nothing to do with it. All he sees is eternal suffering which he can only escape by destroying the very thing he is chained to.

That's how I see it at any rate. The CG is not evil. He is insane, and acting on what he sees to be justifiable reasons.

[Danforth]

He has managed to keep his sanity enough to be one of the smartest people in the Malaz world hasn't he? Being insane doesn't give you right to punish a world, though I do agree that it wasn't his fault so he has right to cause some pain.

[Agraba]

In anyone's mind, they have the right to do anything that they're doing, and it can be viewed as relatively wrong from other points of view.

And I don't know if the Crippled God was at the wrong place at the wrong time. I think he did have sinister intentions, what with being a giant black scary sphere that is descending destructively on Earth.

And Danforth, the Crippled God explains his logic. He thinks he's doing the world a favor, because peace is something that destroys their spirits and makes them a weak, rat of a species. So by proliferating war, he's giving them a reason to live, and to experience sensation and excitement, with the bliss of their own fabricated sensations such as honour and heroism. At least, that's how he explains it.

[Danforth]

Lol, yes he explains that, but I do understand your point, the justification from an insane God is still a justification.

[Tes'thesula]

agraba, the CG was a giant black scary sphere descending because he was captured by the mages, not before he was captured. he belonged in a different realm, and when he was captured and brought intothe malaz realm, he, along with a continent got incinerated. He could have been a very benevolent deity

[Tiger_sword]

he was tricked by the mages into coming into the Malazan realm. We have no record of what he was like before this. I doubt even the CG himself can remember

[Danforth]

True, i would like to know what aspect if any he had before coming to the Malaz World.

[Trotts]

thats the basis of it gode sorry

i believe in moi, while talking to lady envy, toc says that he hates magic because it represses the development of technology.

of course the kaychan were clearly skilled, what with their omgSKY KEEPS!