Malazan Empire: Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen - Malazan Empire

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Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen

#201 User is offline   Kimpo 

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 02:18 AM

enough supplies? they were dead on their feet when reaching Aren, where would they have gotten the extra they needed? not to mention the wells were probably poisoned in Hissar
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#202 User is offline   First Seguleh 

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 12:13 PM

Waxes lyrical and philosophical more than anyone you've ever read? Read any Zindell? Thought not Posted Image

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#203 Guest_Dark Daze_*

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 12:05 PM

Maybe Tolkien is a better example. His characters return to a simple life, whereas it's difficult to imagine anyone in the Malazan books outside the context of war. Do the soldiers ever talk of home?

In any event, I like the simplified story too, but there's definately room for other authors to compliment Erikson's style.
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#204 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 04:41 AM

he realised that Laseens actions were born out of necessity rather than just a need for power. He also realised she was a fitting occupier of the throne and that she probably would take care of the empire. When all was said and done, Kalam felt first and foremost that his duty lay with the Empire, and Laseen's actions had been for the empire and not herself.. Name one conqueror fit to rule after the basis of the empire has been built?
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#205 Guest_writernotviking_*

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 03:54 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Skrzypek:

Staying in Hissar is not the same as 'fortifying in a keep'. Coltaine could leave the civilians under guard of some Malazan troops and fight around Hissar, beating enemies, as they come, one after another.


The Seventh Army could never have defended Hissar. First of all, fighting battles around the city would not have worked. More than once, in the book, they found themselves attacked by more than one army at once. So suppose one army engages the Seventh and another attacks the city from another angle. Hissar would be a target, because the refugees would be kept there, and Hissar would be far too big to adequately defend by attacking enemies before they themselves can attack.

Holding the walls wouldn't be an option: the city would be far too big, with too much area to defend with one understrength army and three Wickan tribes. As already stated, Coltaine's tactics were based on mobility. The resilience of the Malazan soldiers gave him that option, as they could be expectec to hold while he led the Wickans to strike where it was most felt. Alexander the Great employed similar tactics. But on and within the walls of a city, with no room to manoeuver, the Wickans' mobility would be wasted. Coltaine's tactical options would have become even more limited because of the city than they were during the Chain of Dogs because of the refugees.


quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Darth Morgoth:
Secondly, tens of thousands of refugees within a keep ment to hold a normal sized garrison would have ment an enormous potential for plagues and such.


Not, if the warlocks have something to say Posted Image No army in this world seems to be troubled by this kind of problem.


Magic could have played a role in this. That's the one thing that is always a little unclear in Fantasy: what can magic do and what can it not do? In any case, holed up in a city the army as well as the refugees would have been more susceptible to disease. One tactic in siege warfare is to use catapults to launch rotting animal (or human) corpses over the walls and into the streets. The carcasses would spread disease quickly, and because the city was under siege, the only way to get rid of the bodies was to burn them, which was slow going. Nothing would have prevented the rebels from using this tactic.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Darth Morgoth:
Thirdly, again because of the overwhelming amount of people, they may very well not have had a large enough supply of water.


Yes, but compared to the problems encountered on the desert it's a minor one. Besides, werent't there some oases around Hissar?


It is not a minor problem. Marching across the continent meant the Seventh Army was able to take in water at several locations, storing it to last until the next source of water. Staying in Hissar would have meant access to only one source of water, and should it be fouled, none at all. Oases around the city would mean sweet enticing torture, as the siege would have prevented them from reaching said oases.

There is also the matter of food. As Morgoth already mentioned, the herds would have had to be slaughtered. Even salted and smoked, the meat would not have lasted very long. Supply by sea would not have occurred, since Admiral Nok's fleet was unable to sail, and one can reasonably expect the rebels to have had access to sufficient abandoned or defected navy vessels to mount a form of blockade, perhaps even enough to mount an assault from the sea. Coltaine said as much in answer to Captain Sulmar's suggestion that the Seventh retake Ubaryd: "Assailed from the land and the sea, we would never hold."

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Darth Morgoth:
Furthermore, the wickans were horse warriors. They fought from horseback. Now, think back on the battles fought by coltain during the chain of dogs. Who were the deciding factors of each victory? The Warlocks, the Sappers and the Wickan riders. Hiding in a keep would have made the wickans less usefull than a regular marine.
The most important factor though, is the mobility of the chain of dogs opposed to a fortress. Against a fortress the seven cities armies could just send men against the wall until they overan the defenders and slaughtered all. With the chain of dogs, Coltain had options, he could adapt, he could withdraw, and most importantly he could reach allies. Remember that Aren was not his original destination.


As said earlier - they didn't need to hide in there. After the two first battles Coltaine had essentially no enemies around and could wait for the next armies to appear, choosing the place to encounter them, fighting on his conditions, without the problem woth refugees. And by the time Korbolo with his full force reaches Hissar, Tavore's army in there.


Morgoth, excellent point. Sitting in a fortified city means having no place to go.

Skrzypek: Although the book is less than clear about where Korbolo Dom kept his forces before the uprising, a plausible assumption is that he was encamped in Raraku. Looking at the map, it is clear that Raraku was much closer to Hissar than Aren. It wouldn't have taken Korbolo Dom long to reach Hissar and besiege the city.

Also, you mention the first two battles. The first, I suspect, is the rebel attack upon the keep and the Seventh's subsequent cleansing of the city. That would make the second battle the battle of Bat'rol. That battle was fought 50 miles south-west of Hissar; the train had already passed Sialk. Coltaine would not have had the luxury of that second battle, since it took place too far from the city. The refugees would have been unprotected.

Also, when Duiker visits the battlefield at Bat'rol, he is in the company of a handful of rebels. Their leader mentions another High Mage bringing an army from the north. The only reason that army took a while to catch up to Coltaine was because Coltaine was marching away from them. Had he stayed in Hissar, it would have reached him much sooner, likely in concert with the army Coltaine defeated at Bat'rol. Attacked from two sides, the Seventh would have had no choice but to remain inside the walls, as marching out to meet either army would have granted the other the chance to slaughter the Malazan refugees.

A few other points. If Coltaine had not marched, all the refugees from all the other cities would have been doomed. As it was, they were driven from their homes by the rebels to join Coltaine, to make his task more difficult. He managed nonetheless, and most of the refugees made it safely to Aren.

You mentioned Tavore, coming with reinforcements. They arrived after the Chain of Dogs had already ended, which, I believed, lasted nearly six months. Hissar would have fallen long before then.

It is a general rule in warfare that action is preferable to inaction. Initiative is superior to apathy. Staying at Hissar would have completely and irrevocably granted the initiative to the rebels. Cities are more vulnerable than armies, and the only reason cities are defended is that the city is more valuable than the army. In Coltaine's case this was not true, as the city no longer held anything of value.

There is also the psychological element to consider. Holed up in a city for months on end with no place to run, suffering attack nearly every day, would have destroyed morale much faster than marching across the desert would have. They were moving; they were taking action; there was a sense that the Seventh Army retained a measure of control over the situation. When under siege, the emotion changes to a feeling of waiting for the inevitable. After all, no one was going to come to their rescue.

Another psychological point is the effect on the rebels. The Seventh Army and the refugees were marching right across their lands, and nothing the rebels did could stop them. In contrast, as the besiegers, they would have known that they need not do anything: hunger and thirst would have been their allies. A sense of "We have them where we want them. We need not do anything. We can destroy them when we wish." would have dominated, as opposed to the sense that with every league, the refugees were one step closer to slipping from their reach.
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#206 Guest_Fool_*

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Posted 07 February 2004 - 06:31 AM

Actually there were quite a few women in medieval armies. You dont even have to pick up a history book for that. Ash by mary gentle would be enough (as i said, she does have a degree in medieval studies). In that book they are mostly in the mercenary companies but still they are there and i dont see why they shouldnt be. A woman can make a good soldier and if you why would any mercenary company not take on a good soldier? Even IF she wasnt quite as good as the best men.

Remember, good soldiers are rare. And its not put down in history because it wasnt SUPPOSED to happen. Also makes the men look like whimps fighting against women.

On the other hand, there werent quite as many as there in malazan.

And all that stuff about women wanting to sew and being pacifist are just stereotypes. Lots of women might want to follow these stereotypes or are brought up to, but its not inherently female.
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#207 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 07:17 AM

As i saw ir dujek and whiskeyjack knew that the pannion seer was going to have some sort of trap for the advancing armies, so sent dujek ahead of schedule to spring the trap, whiskeyjack and brood would then arrive with no unexpected suprises...

Unfortunatly brood didn't go with whiskeyjack so the plan fell apart.

As for coltaine leaving hissar... he was aware that pormqual would do nothing, he was being attacked by thousands of seven cities natives, and had all the civillians to protect... when he left hissar he thought there were other armies nearby, dom for one, and intended to link up with them before striking at the rebel armies, circumstances combined to leave him alone and having to march to aren, as all the other forces had fallen.

If he had stayed in hissar he would have inevitably been overwhelmed, the only reason he survived for so long on the march to aren was because he wa smobile and one step ahead all the time, in hissar he would have been stuck in one place, the wickans wouldn't have been much use, and he would have had all the citizens of the city ambushing him.
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#208 Guest_cjd262e_*

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 09:55 AM

I actually have a question for all you guys. I'm a pretty steady fantasy reader and have read series like Martin, Jordan, Salvatore, Brooks, Jordan, Goodkind, Stackpole etc. I was directed to Erikson from another chatroom. The person who told me about him obviously liked him a lot. On Amazon all of his books have five stars. I'm 100 pages into Gardens of the Moon, and am completely lost. I don't really understand who is fighting who, etc. Is this pretty normal, or do I need to go back and read the first 100 pages again? I.E. How long does it take before the story will start clicking for me?
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#209 Guest_Skrzypek_*

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 10:20 PM

@ Dazer
By coming that fast Dujek and Whiskeyjack found themselves outnumbered and would be doomed if not for series of fortunate coincidents. They knew, that Seer is powerful enough for both armies. Did they try to commit suicide in favor of Caladan and his armies?
As for Coltaine - Tavore's army. There was no chance Laseen would leave 7C to the rebels, so an army form Malaz should be expected
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#210 Guest_korik_*

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 09:34 PM

like so many others i did think that most of the sections about the mhybe were a bit dragging, but i understand the reasons for them.

i also read some of the other pieces here and thought i might answer them.

as to grizzled veterans - what about the adjuncts army? fiddlers squad? im sure if i can be bothered to look for it i can find quote from the battle of gelor ridge in DG when duiker sees a female marine with urine splattering the tops of her boots.

pregnancy in soliders - there is a small quote somewhere about women wearing ankle braclets inbued with some magicks to stop this

@suese - the reason whiskeyjack and dujek split their forces is because they want to capture the seer, not let him be killed by rake. i think QB told them about burn dying and how they needed the seer's omtose phellack to help her.
at least this is what i understood by it
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#211 Guest_Medium-Paced Ben_*

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 04:10 PM

I've just been rereading bits and pieces of the series after getting all excited about Midnight Tides again (sigh), and I've really noticed just how lacking a lot of the characters are in credibility. When I read the series the first time around I was so wrapped up in the great story, and wanting to know what happened next, that I guess I never really noticed.

Not just the grizzled, stoic veterans, but all the nobles are one-dimensional stereotypes, all female soldiers are pretty much the same character, everyone is overly philosphical despite their background or general personality. I'm really noticing this for the first time, and it is actually a bit of a surprise for me, because I always thought Erikson had some of the better characters in sword and sorcery fantasy. Posted Image

The descriptions/archaeology/geology don't bother me in the slightest, I think they add depth to the world and it's history, which is what I truly love about the MBOTF. However, the philosophy is waaaay overboard. How many diferent characters do we need to remind us that war is bad?

Still, the things I love about Erikson's writing, the scope and depth and history and battles, are more than enough to make up for his shortcomings. And I'm still excited about Midnight Tides. Posted Image

"The Priest of Elder Mael dreams rising seas"
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#212 Guest_Skrzypek_*

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 01:53 AM

In Hissar they would have enough supplies and a safe basis for the civilians. Coltaine could then attack any oncoming army and destroy it.
And concerning Dujek - they had no idea that T'lan Ay will come to their aid.
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#213 Guest_Fool_*

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 02:11 AM

Whats that got to do with ANYTHING?

Or do warrens and floating cities somehow make female soldiers impossible?
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#214 Guest_Medium-Paced Ben_*

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 04:38 PM

Yes, I agree. The Mhybe truly was painful to endure for so many pages.

"The Priest of Elder Mael dreams rising seas"
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#215 User is offline   Paran 

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 11:06 PM

I'm satisfied with the series. I love the basis of it - mimicing the Napleon's Book of the Dead?? I enjoy bring the gods into the equation, as it adds a certain unseen element to all situations and brings mortality or lack of it into question too. Do you really want to live forever?

As for the soldiers, I'm not an expert, but I think people who hang around each other tend to start resembling each other. And you have to throw away your stereo-types of women when viewing them in this world - there is no sexism or racism really in this world. That was one of SE's rules in creating the series - a soldier is a soldier. What kind of person actually consiously decides being a soldier is their career path?! And this is being a soldier in war-time. Not a Chalice D'Arle for sure. Hence it is a certain type of female who usually joins, same as most soldiers by-the-by would have a somewhat similar personalities. Hence soldiers like Whiskeyjack and Paran are different - cut from a different cloth to most soldiers.

Paran is a great example of what SE does - a captain who's never seen combat, a hero who doesn't really fight yet is now extremely powerful. Then look at the Lorn - Tattersail justaposition. It's all there.

So I guess i got no criticism?!

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#216 Guest_Drekskinaar_*

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 04:00 PM

As all of you have already stated, I too love these books. The only thing that really bothers me is that every person in this world, from soldiers to the average joe, all have this massive vocabulary, I'm certainly not saying soldiers and such cant be smart individuals but come on, every single person.

We are all a little insane, those of us outside the asylum just know how to hide it better.
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#217 User is offline   Hume 

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 03:57 PM

@ Skrzypek and Suese

The reason Dujek and Wiskeyjack split forces up. They wanted Wiskeyjack's troops to get there as early as possible, the purpose of which was to try and eliminate any defences the seer had ouitside of the city before they could be established. This was achieved through the help of the bridgeburners. Only thing is that they got too far ahead and lost any real backup support.

WHat were the reinforcements that were going to come by sea for Coltaine ?

#218 Guest_Duiker_*

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Posted 07 February 2004 - 06:48 AM

Oksy you may have a point with the mercenary companies. They might have been female up to a great degree because of their constant need of raw recruits.
But remember that in medieval times, most of the fighting was done by the nobles. And the nobles are, by default, male. A noblewoman wasn't allowed anywhere near a battlefield. The nobles where supported on the field of battle by drafted peasants from their estates. These too were, by default, male. It was the male that was the family head and thus it was the man who had to heed his feudal obligations towards his liege lord. Again, the man go to war and the woman stay behind (with the children and to work the land). So besides the mercs there weren't that many woman who made a profession of war. And besides, the mercenary company thing only began to play any part at all after say 1400 and stopped doing that with the advent of regular, pseudo-nationalist armies in the late 18C. After that it were only males who were drafted or recruited into the army. Until of course recent times (after WW2),
As for ancient history, same story. The males were the ones who were the citizens. Woman were citizen only by their relation to a male (father, husband, brother). The citizens where supposed to defend the state. So, when citizens where by default ALL male, those who fought where ALL male too.
So much for your comment that "there were quite a few women in medieval armies".

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#219 Guest_Skrzypek_*

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 09:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by WriterNotViking:

The Seventh Army could never have defended Hissar.



[a big cut]

Valid points, but based on the assumptions that there's no possibility to defend some part of Hissar. No idea, how the city was built. Wasn't there some kind of castle?
Another factor: in the battlefield the refugees are useless. Behind the walls they can support soldiers, throwing rocks isn't that hard.
And Coltaine could force the refugees to build some fortifications.
The idea I try to present is close to the one of Alexander: a well fortified camp and a mobile striking force around.
The camp could also serve as hospital, which in turn would allow Coltaine to let his warriors heal.

quote:

In any case, holed up in a city the army as well as the refugees would have been more susceptible to disease. One tactic in siege warfare is to use catapults to launch rotting animal (or human) corpses over the walls and into the streets. The carcasses would spread disease quickly, and because the city was under siege, the only way to get rid of the bodies was to burn them, which was slow going. Nothing would have prevented the rebels from using this tactic.


Yes, but it's still uncertain if with such a high concentration of magic, as in the world of Malaz, such diseases can be any problem. No infection troubled the combined armies of Caladan Brood and Dujek, although Capustan was a mess, which could easily breed any germs ne can imagine.

quote:

It is not a minor problem. Marching across the continent meant the Seventh Army was able to take in water at several locations, storing it to last until the next source of water.


[cut]

Which, in turn, meant that it's easy to find Coltaine, to set a trap and to prapare battlefield for his coming. One just needed to wait for him at the nearest spring.

quote:

Skrzypek: Although the book is less than clear about where Korbolo Dom kept his forces before the uprising, a plausible assumption is that he was encamped in Raraku. Looking at the map, it is clear that Raraku was much closer to Hissar than Aren. It wouldn't have taken Korbolo Dom long to reach Hissar and besiege the city.


He wasn't at Raraku, I'd say. He led the rebellion at some city, I can't remember the name.

Another points: Coltaine without refugees could march faster and intercept armies, as they come. He fought more than one army many times, but most of the time he found himself in such trouble, because it was easy to see, where he will move next. Acting around Hissar, he could choose the place and time of the battle.
It' true, he saved more refugees due to his actions, that's a point.

quote:

It is a general rule in warfare that action is preferable to inaction. Initiative is superior to apathy.


Sure. But action doesn't have to mean 'march onwards, and wait for the wonder'. Half on his way Coltaine had to be saved by miracles. What was he hoping for? Did he know how the Khundryl would behave? Did he know of the support of Trygalle Guild?

quote:

Staying at Hissar would have completely and irrevocably granted the initiative to the rebels. Cities are more vulnerable than armies, and the only reason cities are defended is that the city is more valuable than the army. In Coltaine's case this was not true, as the city no longer held anything of value.


Yes, but the march led him into the middle of territory of the enemy and forced him to follow the trail of water sources.
I've never talked about holding he whole Army in Hissar. Closing them all in the fortress was not an option. But marching wasn't a good option either, which is shown by the results of the CoD. Holding the territory around Hissar, staying mobile, beating the enemies one after another and waiting for supoport seems a much better tactics for me.
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#220 Guest_Aramala_*

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 05:51 AM

Excessive use of sentence fragments. See that opening sentence there? Just like that. I understand the use of them during action scenes and such, but they're just a little too frequent for my liking.

As far as the soldiers goes, I understand where you guys are coming from, but I always felt that SE made more of an effort than most authors to show soldiers with weaknesses and fears (I don't know where I've ever read so much mention of piss and faeces before). I just finished HoC, and Gamet comes to mind; marines died saving him while he stood there frozen, in a fog.

Anyways, like others, the romances don't seem overly believable to me. Pearl and Lostara's relationship seems the most realistic imo, but it's still left to be seen how that will develop. Oddly enough, the homosexual relationships seem a lot more successful and long lasting (Tavore and T'amber, Picker and Blend...). I like that SE isn't a "happily ever after" author, but it'd be nice to see SOMEONE with a successful relationship!

At any rate, great books, amazing scope, and some pretty addictive characters (it always saddens me when I start the next book in the series, and I have to leave the characters from the last book behind).
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