[Andorion]

Briar King, on 03 November 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

I enjoyed Mesanna a lot and male pick Demandred. Asmo is up there for me as well even if he was so short lived in the saga. I also really enjoyed the He/She as they were quite fun I thought.

My main issue with the Forsaken is that they get so little screen time. Moridin and Lanfear are the only ones to get extended exposure. But Demandred is cool. Yeah. Probably the only one not to have disastrously failed.

[Andorion]

Cause, on 03 November 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Andorion, on 03 November 2014 - 02:05 AM, said:

Quote

This is a serious problem for me in these books. I can't tell if RJ/Sanderson are just playing it to straight for me to tell but I never get the impression they are trying to highlight such hypocrisy to make a point. Instead it just seems to be how the characters are. If there is a point he makes it far too often and not one person in the world seems to have a single iota of introspection. The Aes Sedai 'servants to all' never serve anyone but themselves. Nynaeve I think is the only one to ever even acknowledge this. The rest even Moraine to a degree play politics even as the world burns. They fight not just to save the world, but to be in charge of what's left. Its quite a contrast to the borderlanders who are essentially samurai and who seem to live the ideal of servants to all. We have Elayne and the Andor issue as you point out. We also have the Elayne and the way she treats Mat and The Band of the Red Hand in Ebou Dar issue. We have Cadsuane. We have Egwene as Amyrlin. We have the Wise ones. The books is either an incredibly subtle critique of hypocrisy and world politics or becomes one regardless/

The constant bickering and politicking is a huge issue for me. But I found that to some extent in the Knife of Dreams and in the Gathering Storm, the character of Egwene was used by the authors to critique the selfish ineffectiveness of the Aes Sedai. In fact I think Sanderson uses Egwene to voice his own critiques of the series. But funnily enough I found that as soon as Egwene became Amyrlin formally, she started thinking in terms of 'dealing' with the Wise Ones, 'managing' the Dragon etc. Power corrupts.

I was not sure if you had gone that far, yes it was incredibly disheartening to see Egwene go from a woman who exposes the Aes Sedai hypocrisy to one who suddenly lives it. Her sudden new viewpoint in how to deal with the Wise Ones is especially disgusting as she throws away all the ideals they taught her and now seems them as unruly children who need to be tied to the tower. I also want to slap her when she does not seem to realize that her believing she is a powerful Amyrlin is normal but surely rand is still just a 22 year old sheep herder who has learnt nothing is insulting.

Agree totally, but to be fair, that is also the attitude of practically anybody in the series with an ounce of power towards everybody else. (with some honourable exceptions)

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 03 November 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

Abyss, on 03 November 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

People forget that despite her other interests, Egwene was always loyal to the Aes Sedai once she joined.

Egwene was extremely loyal to the ideal of the Aes Sedai and the White Tower, Which is why she was so angry about the bickering and the politicking. She tried to reconcile the Sea Folk and the Wise Ones to the Aes Sedai, by reducing the Towers dominance on channelling. My point is that this critical view of Aes Sedai interference (often unwarranted, unwanted and domineering) reduced greatly once she was raised Amyrlin in the Tower.

Nynaeve is the bigger contrast. She was never awed by the Tower or its formalities. Her Test is the best example. She recognised that the test made very little sense as in the real world she would never react like that. She knows when the Aes Sedai are wrong and is not afraid to say it. Egwene knows when the Aes Sedai are wrong too, but later her reaction was tinged with too much reverence. I always felt that what the Tower needed was a healthy dose of iconoclasm.

Andorion, on 03 November 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

Cause, on 03 November 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Andorion, on 03 November 2014 - 02:05 AM, said:

Quote

This is a serious problem for me in these books. I can't tell if RJ/Sanderson are just playing it to straight for me to tell but I never get the impression they are trying to highlight such hypocrisy to make a point. Instead it just seems to be how the characters are. If there is a point he makes it far too often and not one person in the world seems to have a single iota of introspection. The Aes Sedai 'servants to all' never serve anyone but themselves. Nynaeve I think is the only one to ever even acknowledge this. The rest even Moraine to a degree play politics even as the world burns. They fight not just to save the world, but to be in charge of what's left. Its quite a contrast to the borderlanders who are essentially samurai and who seem to live the ideal of servants to all. We have Elayne and the Andor issue as you point out. We also have the Elayne and the way she treats Mat and The Band of the Red Hand in Ebou Dar issue. We have Cadsuane. We have Egwene as Amyrlin. We have the Wise ones. The books is either an incredibly subtle critique of hypocrisy and world politics or becomes one regardless/

The constant bickering and politicking is a huge issue for me. But I found that to some extent in the Knife of Dreams and in the Gathering Storm, the character of Egwene was used by the authors to critique the selfish ineffectiveness of the Aes Sedai. In fact I think Sanderson uses Egwene to voice his own critiques of the series. But funnily enough I found that as soon as Egwene became Amyrlin formally, she started thinking in terms of 'dealing' with the Wise Ones, 'managing' the Dragon etc. Power corrupts.

I was not sure if you had gone that far, yes it was incredibly disheartening to see Egwene go from a woman who exposes the Aes Sedai hypocrisy to one who suddenly lives it. Her sudden new viewpoint in how to deal with the Wise Ones is especially disgusting as she throws away all the ideals they taught her and now seems them as unruly children who need to be tied to the tower. I also want to slap her when she does not seem to realize that her believing she is a powerful Amyrlin is normal but surely rand is still just a 22 year old sheep herder who has learnt nothing is insulting.

Agree totally, but to be fair, that is also the attitude of practically anybody in the series with an ounce of power towards everybody else. (with some honourable exceptions)

It's not like Egwene could have just taken over and said 'Ok, the Dragon Reborn is a guy i grew up with and he's right so all of you shut your faces and we do what he wants us to do'.
She would have been dethroned and/or stilled and possibly killed. Plus from the start she buys into the idea of the AS being the bestest people to decide what's best for everyone everywhere... 'who else could possibly do better?'.


Which is not to excuse some of the inherent AS stupidity or Egwene's buying into it, but it's not wholly sniffing and skirt-smoothing for the sake of it.

Plus she's operating under the assumption that Rand is still nuts... i can't recall whether she knows about him healing the Taint by this point, but regardless he's The Dragon... his rep precedes him and that includes even his wins having some fairly awful consequences.

Andorion, on 03 November 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Briar King, on 03 November 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

I enjoyed Mesanna a lot and male pick Demandred. Asmo is up there for me as well even if he was so short lived in the saga. I also really enjoyed the He/She as they were quite fun I thought.

My main issue with the Forsaken is that they get so little screen time. Moridin and Lanfear are the only ones to get extended exposure. But Demandred is cool. Yeah. Probably the only one not to have disastrously failed.

WINTER'S HEART really ruined my faith in most of the Foresaken as quality baddies. That's not a story critique, there were reasons why they were so ineffective and it worked, it just really removed a lot of their credibility as genuine threats and made some of their past success look like luck instead.

Mesanna and Demandred were my faves as well.

[Andorion]

Abyss, I acknowledge Egwene could not have signalled an overt u-turn in Towe rpolicy immediately. But pre-Amyrlin elevation, we get her PoVs, introspectiosn and conversations with Sisters where she makes her opinions and philosphy clear. She even articulated a policy of dealing with Rand. But post-Amyrlin, even to herself, or to an intimate like Siuan or Elayne or Nynaeve, her tone and thought process changes radically. Before she saw the problme, now its like she has forgotten all about it.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 03 November 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

Abyss, I acknowledge Egwene could not have signalled an overt u-turn in Towe rpolicy immediately. But pre-Amyrlin elevation, we get her PoVs, introspectiosn and conversations with Sisters where she makes her opinions and philosphy clear. She even articulated a policy of dealing with Rand. But post-Amyrlin, even to herself, or to an intimate like Siuan or Elayne or Nynaeve, her tone and thought process changes radically. Before she saw the problme, now its like she has forgotten all about it.

I'd say it's more like her perspective changed. It's not a storybreaker of an issue, i just find many of the critiques that run 'Egwene should have done X' overlook the fact that that story validly had her in a situation where she couldn't and if she could have, characteristically wouldn't have.

[Cause]

I feel like Egwene become a bit of a mary sue. I understood too much time had been wasted on irrelevancies and now stuff had to move forward, still its odd that Egwene accomplishes more in the tower and becomes Amyrlin so quickly while the three most powerful Taveren in the world struggle to get people to agree that the sky is blue.

While she does not necessarilly break character she certainly does some very strange things once becoming Amyrlin. In her inner most thoughts which we are Privy to she speaks of managing the dragon Reborn. She does think he is crazy, and maybe from her POV he is not the best to lead but certainly neither is she. She speaks of tying thw sie ones to the tower with strings and they will learn to late the strings are chains or some such. The wise ones taught her the Aes Sedai don't always know best but suddenly she forgot and thinks of them as unruly children who need to be roped back in. When she sees Rand in full Jesus persona she keeps looking for is angle, wondering how he is manipulating people. I think there was certainly a shift in Egwene who fought to become Amyrlin and Egwene who was Amyrlin. Not a good one. She went from being a character I enjoyed and liked to just another Aes Sedai who I hoped would end up in the greatest funeral byre ever.

[Andorion]

23 chapters into A Memory of Light.

This entire book is basically a description of the Last Battle, and Sanderson does it pretty well. The various fronts Lan, Egwene, Elayne are each different with their own challenges, but the battle descriptions are pretty good. The Malkieric harge, Egwene and the Aes Sedai channelling, Elaynes's cannons etc. One storyline I really liked was the Androl and Pevara one. Androl is a very rootable charcter and I very intrigues by what seems to be a vast number of experiences he has had.

Rand continues to play God, but at least now theres an explanation fo rthat. The Ogier join the battle, which I really liked.

Mat is again the standout. and that is saying a lot, considering we see some really powerful characters unleashing themselves. Rand does get a treaty with the Seanchan but I am not convinced if this is a solution.

Lanfear is playing her own game again, which isn't surprising at all.

Moiraine's entrance was nice. She single-handedly settles all the arguments and disputes. Who is the real Aes Sedai here?

Two big WTF moments: 1. The seals are fake. WTF? When was the switcheroo pulled? What does this mean? Who has them?
2. The invasion of the Sharans. A vast gateway opens, a gigantic Sharan army comes and devastates. Turns out Demandred has been manipulating them.
This is probably the best gambit pulled off by any Forsaken. I have a big gripe though. If the Sharans were supposed to play such a big role, a little bit of info, a little bit of foreshadowing would have been nice. So far they have been aluded to around 10 times in 13 books as the unknown people living across the waste, who don't let anybody into their country. It just seems a bit of a clumsy plot device to suddenly bang them into the middle.
Strangely enough, when Slayer was being shown in the Town, there were those wierd Shadowspawn which are like monstrous Aiel. The were hyped as terrifying etc. Yet they never show up in the big battle.

[Illuyankas]

Make a note of the page count at the beginning of the chapter The Last Battle, and then at the end.

[Andorion]

Illuyankas, on 04 November 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

Make a note of the page count at the beginning of the chapter The Last Battle, and then at the end.

Will do

[Andorion]

DONE. FINISHED. A Memory of Light as well as the Wheel of Time.

Bloody, hell, what a read. Read the last half or so at a stretch unbroken in a 3 hour period.

The book was great. The entire book was essentially one big battle. The descriptions were excellent.

Mat carried this book. Again. I know this is supposed to be Rands book. He defeats the Dark ONe, makes everything ok. But Rand still carries the day. Brilliant gernalship, outstanding bravery, and a wit and personality which has mae him one of my most favourite characters in fantasy.

Perrin,made up fo ra lot of what had made him boring before. Steadfast, determined, he carried his load.

Egwene. Bloody hell Egwene. She showed what an Aes sedai, an Amyrlin can do. She died, but she also showed Balefire can be reversed.

My main gripe is Gawyn. His death was tragic, but also menaingless except in the way it showed how tough Egwene was. Gawyn's character was never really straightened out for me.
Galad finally does something useful. Huh.

Androl and Pevara were an awesome duo.Opening a gateway to summon lava, trapping the Black Ajah in a stedding. All round awesome.


Lan. Awesome till the end. He takes out Demandred. Bet no one saw that coming, and using Sheathing the Sword,that technique which he taught Rand soo long ago. I really fear I Will never again enjoy reading another swordfight because Lan wont be in it.

For me the best military group was the Two Rivers Archers under Tam. Ranged killing at its best, followed closely by the singing Ogier.

One of the best moments was realising that Mat had moved those never dying villagers to the battle to seriously spoil the Dreadlords day.

Rands big battle with the Darklord, turns out to be more of a philosophical debate. But in the end, the trick with moridin was really cool. So the Bore is no longer patched, its sealed permanently.

Padan Fain finally is brought low.

Of the Forsaken, Demandred dominated the book. Bringing an entire subcontinent to fight, then totally controlling the battlefield.. he could have won, if not for Tai-shar Malkier.

Graendal, once under control and obeying orders proved effective. Exremely so in fact. Though what Aviendha did to her with the collapsing weave.. is that a reverse compulsion?

Moghedien was useless, Lanfear, nearly pulled off her own subtle little plot.

Moridin proved to be a rather poor tool in the end.

Now lets hope the Seanchan honour their treaty, and the Sharans stay in their own country.

[Slow Ben]

Nothing to add to the discussion, just wanted to say i enjoyed the hell out of this read-through.

[amphibian]

I joked about this, with Illy before, and I love saying this:

Rand did it all to stop being a ginger.

[Andorion]

Slow Ben, on 05 November 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

Nothing to add to the discussion, just wanted to say i enjoyed the hell out of this read-through.

Thanx!

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 05 November 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Sadly we will never see the Outriggers set now that RJ is dead and BS confirmed that he wouldn't be writing it cause RJ didn't leave notes but the set was going to be Mat and Tuon going back to Seanchan and retaking the Crystal Throne. Badass.

So there are 3 survive Forsaken at the end. Mes with a scrambled brain(I'm sure someone would be able to heal the damage) Graendel/Hess(I'm sure the Compultion can be reversed, and Mog(just need to open her collar and she's free).

So now you know who killed Asmo tell me if you can see from past clues that people had the right person pegged the whole time? I say no fucking way.

Also once again: no Outriggers..

amphibian, on 05 November 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

I joked about this, with Illy before, and I love saying this:

Rand did it all to stop being a ginger.

Oh damn that Outrigger concept was good. More Mat is always good. It would have been a nice follow up

And no, I still don't know who took out Asmodean. One of the Forsaken, definitely. Demandred? No, becasue he thaought for a second Lan was Asmo. Not Graendael, not her style. My bet is still Sammael. RJ should have left a note.

[Illuyankas]

Unfortunately, while I agree with you, it's explicitly Graendal. They state she's killed two Forsaken after leaving Arangar to die, and that's pretty much all the mention they give. Apparently you were meant to work this out because of the limited suspect group of people who could actually do it and who would have a motive to, and while overlooking the lack of anything suggesting who it could be or why it mattered at all in the end.

And yeah, this thread's been fun.

[Andorion]

Concluding Post:

I think that the Wheel of Time as a series, despite its many, many problems is till an important milestone in fantasy. RJ got somethings spot on. His world-building was very good, with great attention to detail. His plot, while sometimes meandering, and in one book entirely stopping, still had the potential to throw out surprises. The characters have many problems, but they are still quite memorable. Mat is a masterpiece. He has a place in the fantasy pantheon. Lan is one of the best badass characters written.

I think a redeeming feature of this series was actually the huge size. It allowed RJ to make up for his mistakes, make his most annoying characters do something useful. RJ as a writer, is kind of uneven, but when he wrote a book like Knife of Dreams at his last stage, when he was so sick, that should tell you what he could do when he put his mind to it. BS did a really good job concluding the series in those last three huge books.

Would I reread this? No. The thought of those middle books still puts chills down my spine. But, a serious fantasy reader should read this series once.

That said, I would really like to thank everybody who followed this thread and posted stuff. Knowing you guys were there was a huge encouragement in a pretty difficult task. Quite honestly Crossroads of Twilight was a chore and one I will always shudder to remember. I will always be grateful to this forum for its awesome flexibility. I got so much encouragement for doing a readthrough of Robert Jordan in a Malazan forum.


Now I would like to thank the folowing authors. Their books, good/bad/whatever, kept me going through the middle books of WoT. These are the books I dipped into or read totally as palate cleansers:

1.The Colony AJ Colucci

2.Invasive Species Joseph Wallace

3.Avogadro Corp William Hertling

4.LOTR Tolkien

5.Richard Morgan Steel Remains, Dark Defiles

6.Robert Reddick Book 1

7.Ian Morris Why the West Rules

8.Dennis Showalter Armour and blood

9.Tom Clancy Red Storm Rising

[Andorion]

Finally, now that I am done with WoT, I would like some advice. My immediate TRP looks like this:

1.Richard morgan Dark Defiles

2.Terry Pratchett Raising Steam

3.Max Gladstone Full Fathom Five

4.Peter Hamilton

5.Robert Reddick

6.Scott Westerfeld

7.Ash a secret history

8.Jeff Van Der Veer

9.Kameron Hurley Mirror Empire

10.Michael Stackpole

11.Adrian Tchaichovsky

TheThe first three books I will read in order. They are all part of series I have been following. What I would like is some advice regarding the order/viability of the others. If anyone thinks its better to relocate this question to a new thread, say so and I will start a new one. My basic problem is that having finished WoT I don't want to begin another huge series, but jusr read medium/light books for a bit.

[Andorion]

Illuyankas, on 06 November 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

Unfortunately, while I agree with you, it's explicitly Graendal. They state she's killed two Forsaken after leaving Arangar to die, and that's pretty much all the mention they give. Apparently you were meant to work this out because of the limited suspect group of people who could actually do it and who would have a motive to, and while overlooking the lack of anything suggesting who it could be or why it mattered at all in the end.

And yeah, this thread's been fun.

But why would Graendal do that? Her style was always operating from shadows, pulling strings She only got directly involved because she was forced. Makes no sense.

[amphibian]

Quote

Andorion's TRP list

Look at the Indian guy listening so readily to a Nepali guy's book reviews.

I haven't read too much of the entire list, but I can say that Ash will take you a while to finish - even at the fast pace you read at (also something I do too). I think your overall list is well apportioned and you'll enjoy that as is.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 06 November 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

Asmo was regarded as a Traitor to all Forsaken. That gave her motive enough, plus it meant less competition in trying to be named Nae Blis. It was her though. She mentioned it herself in one of BS entries. His murder along with shielding the he/she Forsaken in Rands Balefire attack earned her the Dark Ones ire and that's why she was re bodied into the old warty Hessalam crone.

A big thing to me is even though the Dark One is now sealed there are still 3 Forsaken alive that could carry on if they re healed/freed as I mentioned a few post back.

As for what to read next I say Adrain. Yeah it's a 10 bk set but they are really short compared to the massive WoT.

I get the motivation. Its the method that strikes me wrong. Graendal would have acted through a go-between.

Regarding Tchaichovsky, does anyone know if the last book is out, or if not, when it will be out? I dont want to start another big ass series right now.