[Egwene]

Need some help here...

When Paran meets Whiskeyjack in the Prologue of GotM, he marks him as being a Commander in the 3rd Army. Is there anything to support that? Everything I can find is about them having been part of the second... Am I missing something?

Would love it if someone could shed light on this confusion. Thank you

[worry]

It's both. It's like how some cultures consider the lobby the "first floor" while others think of the lobby as its own entity, and the one above it the true "first floor."

[Andorion]

Ummm, prologue of GotM was when Laseen was yet to be Empress, so Whiskeyjack was occupying his senior position. Then she does become Empress, the Old Guard scatters, and Whiskeyjack gets demoted, and probably re-assigned to the Second Army. Thats the best I can do because I am blanking on these GotM details.

[D'rek]

Whiskeyjack was commander of the Bridgeburners for a while, but then when he got promoted to Fist he was moved to a position in the 3rd Army, while the Bridgeburners would have remained a company in the 2nd Army. In the GotM prologue, he is still a Fist in the 3rd Army (or maybe even High Fist?) but between the GotM prologue and the rest of GotM he gets demoted back down to Sergeant and assigned a position in the Bridgeburners (still 2nd Army) again.



From NoK (at the first battle of Y'Ghatan, which would be a few months before the GotM prologue):

Quote

"[Dassem Ultor] had turned over the battle to the sub-commanders of the Third Army: Amaron, Choss, and Whiskeyjack."

[Andorion]

 D, on 14 September 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

Whiskeyjack was commander of the Bridgeburners for a while, but then when he got promoted to Fist he was moved to a position in the 3rd Army, while the Bridgeburners would have remained a company in the 2nd Army. In the GotM prologue, he is still a Fist in the 3rd Army (or maybe even High Fist?) but between the GotM prologue and the rest of GotM he gets demoted back down to Sergeant and assigned a position in the Bridgeburners (still 2nd Army) again.



From NoK (at the first battle of Y'Ghatan, which would be a few months before the GotM prologue):

Quote

"[Dassem Ultor] had turned over the battle to the sub-commanders of the Third Army: Amaron, Choss, and Whiskeyjack."

You never fail to amaze me. Referring Nok would have never occurred to me.

[Egwene]

Thank you, D'rek! I have found the quote and have edited the Wikia accordingly.

I am trying to piece together the order of events for Whiskeyjack under the reign of the Emperor.


http://malazan.wikia...iki/Whiskeyjack


One thing that I am unsure about is the timing of the conception of the Bridgeburners. They seem to be already in existence during the siege of Y'Ghatan (Temper for example recollects them being there). I thought that they only got the name Bridgeburners as a result of their trip through the desert Raraku?

If you know of any passages that clarify the timings, that would be great. If possible please quote the chapter number so I can add a source reference to the Wikia entry.

PS: if anyone has any thoughts on other edits for that wikia page, let me know and I'll edit accordingly. Please tell me whereabouts in the books you have found the info so I can reference it.

[HoosierDaddy]

We don't need the Wiki. We have D'rek.

[D'rek]

 Egwene, on 14 September 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

One thing that I am unsure about is the timing of the conception of the Bridgeburners. They seem to be already in existence during the siege of Y'Ghatan (Temper for example recollects them being there). I thought that they only got the name Bridgeburners as a result of their trip through the desert Raraku?

Well it seems the fall of Y'Ghatan was long enough after Whiskeyjack's company went through Raraku for the Bridgeburners to become a much bigger company, participate in enough attacks to become notorious and go through a trio of commanders.

It's hard to figure out the order of events in the Empire's conquests and battles in Seven Cities because it seems there have been several rebellions. You'd think that at the least any reference to the Falah'dan / Holy Protectors would be references to the original conquests when the original leaders were still in charge... but the start of Whiskeyjack's account to Rake of the Bridgeburners' creation says that it was both a rebellion *and* there was a Holy Protector... sheesh!

[Hetan]

 Egwene, on 14 September 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

One thing that I am unsure about is the timing of the conception of the Bridgeburners. They seem to be already in existence during the siege of Y'Ghatan (Temper for example recollects them being there). I thought that they only got the name Bridgeburners as a result of their trip through the desert Raraku?

If you know of any passages that clarify the timings, that would be great. If possible please quote the chapter number so I can add a source reference to the Wikia entry.

PS: if anyone has any thoughts on other edits for that wikia page, let me know and I'll edit accordingly. Please tell me whereabouts in the books you have found the info so I can reference it.

If the Bridgeburners story as told by Whiskeyjack is true -the Bridgeburners, as in the soldiers that made up the unit, would have been at Y'ghatan because that's where they set out from under Dassem's orders - even if at that time they were not called the Bridgeburners. So this would support the founding of the Bridgeburners as being when they crossed Raraku after Y'Ghatan.
The two events were so close together that they become one if you know what I mean.

I can't find a reference in NoK to support Temper recollecting the Bridgeburners as a 'unit' being at Y'Ghatan - where did that come from please?

What I did find is that during the night of the Shadow Moon, Temper recognises the badge that Ash is wearing as being the badge of the Bridgeburners, once of the Third Army. An army that Dassem, with Temper at his side, had led in Falar and the Seven Cities.

I haven't looked through any other of ICE's books to see what else is said.

Also Nok - p 172 - Choss promoted to High Fist and interim commander of the Third Army. - this happened after the Ameron, Choss, Whiskeyjack thing.

Edit: Realised I'd put stuff in the wrong places so edited to make sense of my chaotic brain

This post has been edited by Hetan (Also Actually Possibly Mal): 15 September 2014 - 11:33 AM

[Egwene]

 Hetan (Also Actually Possibly Mal), on 15 September 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

 Egwene, on 14 September 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

One thing that I am unsure about is the timing of the conception of the Bridgeburners. They seem to be already in existence during the siege of Y'Ghatan (Temper for example recollects them being there). I thought that they only got the name Bridgeburners as a result of their trip through the desert Raraku?

If you know of any passages that clarify the timings, that would be great. If possible please quote the chapter number so I can add a source reference to the Wikia entry.

PS: if anyone has any thoughts on other edits for that wikia page, let me know and I'll edit accordingly. Please tell me whereabouts in the books you have found the info so I can reference it.

If the Bridgeburners story as told by Whiskeyjack is true -the Bridgeburners, as in the soldiers that made up the unit, would have been at Y'ghatan because that's where they set out from under Dassem's orders - even if at that time they were not called the Bridgeburners. So this would support the founding of the Bridgeburners as being when they crossed Raraku after Y'Ghatan.
The two events were so close together that they become one if you know what I mean.

I can't find a reference in NoK to support Temper recollecting the Bridgeburners as a 'unit' being at Y'Ghatan - where did that come from please?

What I did find is that during the night of the Shadow Moon, Temper recognises the badge that Ash is wearing as being the badge of the Bridgeburners, once of the Third Army. An army that Dassem, with Temper at his side, had led in Falar and the Seven Cities.

I haven't looked through any other of ICE's books to see what else is said.

Also Nok - p 172 - Choss promoted to High Fist and interim commander of the Third Army. - this happened after the Ameron, Choss, Whiskeyjack thing.

Edit: Realised I'd put stuff in the wrong places so edited to make sense of my chaotic brain

I am not sure if there was another reference earlier but I think I may have amalgamated the bit about Ash's badge and a bit further on the same page, Corinn (who Temper now thinks of as a Bridgeburner mage) saying that she was there at Y'Ghatan and saw the sword broken. Son not conclusive evidence. Just re-read Temper's recollections of the battle and nothing there either...

I am not too good with remembering dates and that is one reason I am trying to edit the Wikia... so those like me have somewhere to run for info. Unfortunately, most entries were made without referencing the source and it is an uphill struggle trying to add those.

You mention them setting out under Dassem's order... I would have thought that it must have been quite some time before the final battle - for Whiskeyjack to go from chasing fleeing mages to becoming a subcommander in the 3rd Army.

[D'rek]

Hetan/Mal - what makes you think they were sent after the mages from Y'Ghatan?

Quote

'Good. I think it will be worth it.' Whiskeyjack's gaze wandered, found the lantern hanging from a pole, settled on its dim, flaring gold flame. 'Quick Ben. Adaephon Delat, a middling wizard in the employ of one of the Seven Holy Protectors during an abortive rebellion that originated in Aren. Delat and eleven other mages made up the Protector's cadre. Our besieging army's own sorcerers were more than their match - Bellurdan, Nightchill, Tayschrenn, A'Karonys, Tesormalandis, Stumpy - a formidable gathering known for their brutal execution of the Emperor's will. Well, the city the Protector was holed up in was breached, the walls sundered, slaughter in the streets, the madness of battle gripped us all. Dassem struck down the Holy Protector - Dassem and his band of followers he called his First Sword - they chewed their way through the enemy ranks. The Protector's cadre, seeing the death of their master and the shattering of the army, fled. Dassem ordered my company in pursuit, out into the desert. Our guide was a local, a man recently recruited into our own Claw

Whiskeyjack says it was part of an "abortive rebellion" (whatever that means) that originated in Aren, but there's no saying where the Falah'dan, his mages and/or his army of rebels were when Dassem attacked them and struck down the Falah'dan. This quote just says "the city the Protector was holed up in". Is there another reference that pins that city as Y'Ghatan?

Given that Dassem's fall at Y'Ghatan was only a few months before the GotM prologue, which itself is only a few months before NoK, Kellanved and Dancer should already be gone by the time of Y'Ghatan. The city ref'd above *shouldn't* be Y'Ghatan because there needs to be some time for the BBs to gain a nasty reputation (enough that a 12 year old kid from Unta recognizes their insignia), plus the BBs should be around before Kellanved disappears in order for them to be among "the old Emperor's favourites".

Also, if it were Y'Ghatan, Dassem wouldn't be able to order WJ's company to track down the Falah'dan's wizards after the battle because he'd be "dead"!

[Hetan]

There's no reason why Corinn could not have witnessed the breaking of the Sword and become a Bridgeburner - and the Bridgeburners became a much bigger unit than the 70 or so they started out with.

Likewise - Whiskeyjack was already a subcommander in the 3rd - so Dassem could have spoken with him at any point during the siege - seems a little wierd that Dassem would send him off after a cadre of fleeing mages I agree, but then Hood's influence and all that...


No source references on the Wikia you are referencing? that's very tricksome to work with then.

This post has been edited by Hetan (Also Actually Possibly Mal): 15 September 2014 - 02:31 PM

[D'rek]

 Hetan (Also Actually Possibly Mal), on 15 September 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

There's no reason why Corinn could not have witnessed the breaking of the Sword and become a Bridgeburner - and the Bridgeburners became a much bigger unit than the 70 or so they started out with.

Likewise - Whiskeyjack was already a subcommander in the 3rd - so Dassem could have spoken with him at any point during the siege - seems a little wierd that Dassem would send him off after a cadre of fleeing mages I agree, but then Hood's influence and all that...


No source references on the Wikia you are referencing? that's very tricksome to work with then.

Actually, looking further along Whiskeyjack's retelling of the formation of the BBs, he also says to Quick Ben that "the Emperor will take you away from me" and Kalam says Surly will be displeased by him leaving the Claw.

So, again, do you have any actual reference to the BB formation happening after the battle at Y'Ghatan? Because I can't recall any references to that effect at all, and it makes very little sense, IMO.

[Egwene]

 D, on 15 September 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Hetan/Mal - what makes you think they were sent after the mages from Y'Ghatan?

Quote

'Good. I think it will be worth it.' Whiskeyjack's gaze wandered, found the lantern hanging from a pole, settled on its dim, flaring gold flame. 'Quick Ben. Adaephon Delat, a middling wizard in the employ of one of the Seven Holy Protectors during an abortive rebellion that originated in Aren. Delat and eleven other mages made up the Protector's cadre. Our besieging army's own sorcerers were more than their match - Bellurdan, Nightchill, Tayschrenn, A'Karonys, Tesormalandis, Stumpy - a formidable gathering known for their brutal execution of the Emperor's will. Well, the city the Protector was holed up in was breached, the walls sundered, slaughter in the streets, the madness of battle gripped us all. Dassem struck down the Holy Protector - Dassem and his band of followers he called his First Sword - they chewed their way through the enemy ranks. The Protector's cadre, seeing the death of their master and the shattering of the army, fled. Dassem ordered my company in pursuit, out into the desert. Our guide was a local, a man recently recruited into our own Claw

Whiskeyjack says it was part of an "abortive rebellion" (whatever that means) that originated in Aren, but there's no saying where the Falah'dan, his mages and/or his army of rebels were when Dassem attacked them and struck down the Falah'dan. This quote just says "the city the Protector was holed up in". Is there another reference that pins that city as Y'Ghatan?

Given that Dassem's fall at Y'Ghatan was only a few months before the GotM prologue, which itself is only a few months before NoK, Kellanved and Dancer should already be gone by the time of Y'Ghatan. The city ref'd above *shouldn't* be Y'Ghatan because there needs to be some time for the BBs to gain a nasty reputation (enough that a 12 year old kid from Unta recognizes their insignia), plus the BBs should be around before Kellanved disappears in order for them to be among "the old Emperor's favourites".

Also, if it were Y'Ghatan, Dassem wouldn't be able to order WJ's company to track down the Falah'dan's wizards after the battle because he'd be "dead"!

Funny, I always thought it was Y'Ghatan but you are right it is actually more likely to be another city. QB being in the employ of 'one' of the Holy Protectors is also a point in favour of it being another city as maybe 'in the employ of the last of the Holy Protectors' would have been the more likely phrase used had it been Y'Ghatan.

 Hetan (Also Actually Possibly Mal), on 15 September 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

There's no reason why Corinn could not have witnessed the breaking of the Sword and become a Bridgeburner - and the Bridgeburners became a much bigger unit than the 70 or so they started out with.

Likewise - Whiskeyjack was already a subcommander in the 3rd - so Dassem could have spoken with him at any point during the siege - seems a little wierd that Dassem would send him off after a cadre of fleeing mages I agree, but then Hood's influence and all that...


No source references on the Wikia you are referencing? that's very tricksome to work with then.

From Temper's recollections we know that Dassem had given command to the three sub-commanders, WJ included, before he went off to chase the last Champion. So WJ is around at that point. The trip into Raraku took up a long time and it is unlikely that WJ would be given the commanding role had he been absent for most of the siege. The city in question not being Y'Ghatan would be the obvious answer to a lot of questions.

I am editing on http://malazan.wikia...ki/Malazan_Wiki

The site has 2300+ pages and unfortunately, most contributions were made without people adding any info about where in the books they found things. Still a pretty impressive source. It has helped me quite a bit. I was about to post a new topic on the forum about this very subject of lacking references so watch the space ;-)

[Hetan]

Yeah - I had a lot of fun chasing down that particular rabbit hole didn't I?
But to be honest from a point of view of perspective in time it's helped clear up quite a lot of things - so thanks all round

So in answer to Egwene's question about the conception of the Bridgeburners, we need to go to Aren for that scenario, and as D'rek has pointed out, years earlier. All evidence points that would be the Aren Massacre ?


"Cone-shaped hills kept pace with them to the east, and would do so to within a thousand paces of Aren's north wall. The hills were not natural: they were mass graves, scores of them, from the misguided slaughter of the city's residents by the T'lan Imass in Kellanved's time. The hill nearest Aren was among the largest, and was home to the city's ruling families and the Holy Protector and Falah'dan." –(DG, UK mmpb, p.831)


"The only structure less than a century old was the Malazan arched gate that marked the beginning of the Aren Way, a broad, raised military road that had been constructed at Dassem Ultor's command early in the conquest.
Deep ditches flanked the Aren Way, and beyond them were high, flat-topped earthen banks on which grew for the entire ten-mile stretch and in two precise rows, tall cedars that had been transplanted from Geleen on the Clatar Sea. – (DG, UK mmpb, p.830)

Barathol on Kalam :'Cousin, distant. Mekhar refers to the tribe - it's gone now, slaughtered by Falah'd Enezgura of Aren, during one of his westward conquests.' (BH UKTpb, p.496)

"And yet Barathol, an officer in the Red Blades, had murdered the Fist of Aren. He’d been arrested and gaoled, stripped of his rank and beaten without mercy by his fellow Red Blades – the first and deepest stain upon their honour, fuelling their extreme acts of zealotry ever since.
Barathol was to have been crucified on Aren Way. Instead, the city had risen in rebellion, slaughtering the Malazan garrison and driving the Red Blades from the city.
And then the T’lan Imass had arrived, delivering the harsh, brutal lesson of imperial vengeance. And Barathol Mekhar had been seen, by scores of witnesses, flinging open the north gate...
But it is true. T’lan Imass need no opened gates.."
- L'oric

[Malaclypse]

The thing to take away here is 'T'lan Imass need no opened gates'

[Hetan]

and this bit is a bit muddled..

Fiddler:' What happened during the Aren Rebellion was a mistake...No command was ever given to the Logros T'lan Imass.' (DG, UK MMPB, p.95)

Apsalar, speaking from Cotillion's memories, and Fiddler:

'Who ordered the T'lan Imass into Aren? I shall tell you. Surly, the commander of the Claw, the woman who took upon herself a new name-'

Fiddler:'Laseen...I have never before heard that assertion...There were no written orders - none found, in any case-'

Apsalar: 'I should have killed her there and then...these memories...they are so clear. I was...sent to Aren...to see the slaughter. To find out what happened. I...I argued with Surly. No-one else was in the room. Just Surly and...and me.'(DG, UK MMPB, p.195)

[Malaclypse]

that's not muddled - that is Apsalar's believeable assertion that Surly ordered the massacre. The fact that there is strong competing evidence is almost beside the point. I think this is clearly the author trying to settle the matter for us but that's the fucked-up community that we are that we still don't believe it. Remember caladanbrood (may all the gods, above and below, rest his rotted soul) and his insistence that Traveller was not Dessembrae?

Crazy stuff.

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 19 September 2014 - 10:12 AM

[D'rek]

The Aren massacre was *after* or very shortly before The Return, or there wouldn't be any debate about who ordered it. There can't be arguments positing that the Aren massacre was a hint that Kellanved was still alive if he hadn't "died" yet, even less so if he hadn't even disappeared for two years, yet.

Yet the Bridgeburners were an active military unit long before then, in order for them to become "one of the Emperor's favourites".

Assuming that the battle of Y'Ghatan was part of suppressing the same rebellion as the Bridgeburners were formed in, here's how I think it all stacks up:

1. A rebellion starts in Aren.
2. Presumably many cities join this rebellion (as there are many Falah'dan). Y'Ghatan would be one of them.
3. Kalam Mekhar, an assassin/bodyguard to one of these Falah'dan, defects to the Claw (probably after the Falah'dan dies).
4. At one of the Holy Cities (not Y'Ghatan), Dassem kills the Holy Protector and orders Captain Whiskeyjack's company to pursue the fleeing mages, with Kalam as guide.
5. The company chases them, the Bridgeburners are formed, they retake G'danisban.
6. The other Holy Cities are re-conquered, if any are left at this point. Whiskeyjack is promoted to Fist of the 3rd Army. Korbolo Dom replaces him as Captain of the Bridgeburners. (Possibly Dujek replaces Korbolo before #7 or that may happen later)
7. Kellanved and Dancer disappear, leaving Surly as Imperial Regent.
8. The last Chaining occurs. Dassem gets pissed off at Hood.
9. The Malazan 3rd Army and/including the Bridgeburners (and possibly other forces) attack Y'Ghatan. Dassem "dies".
10. Y'Ghatan falls. The rebellion is over.
11. The Bridgeburners and some other Malazan forces are ordered to Malaz City. The Mouse Quarter riots. The BBs and other forces are sent to Genebackis.
12. A few months after that, The Return happens on the night of the Shadow Moon. Kellanved and Dancer return, "die" and ascend to Shadowthrone and The Rope. Laseen proclaims herself Empress.



6/7/8 could be flipped around. This is over the span of years, of course. The Aren massacre doesn't play into it at all, not sure why Mal/Hetan are mass-quoting it.

[Egwene]

From NoK - Temper's recollections of Y'Ghatan:

"As they advanced, Temper kept a look ahead for Surgen - Surgen Ress, the man who claimed to be the last of the Holy City's patroned and anointed champions. Never mind there were only seven Holy Cities and that all seven champions had fallen to Dassem's sword." NoK, Chapter 4, UK HB p.153

Quite good evidence that all seven Holy Cities fell to Dassem with Y'Ghatan following.