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The Letherii entrepreneurs weren't there for gold per se -- at least not in the sense of staking small claims and panning rivers for the occasional sand-sized nugget. They were after establishing real property (ie land holdings) and doing what they always do: taking control of debt-based economies, making sure they're doing the trickling down and not being trickled upon.
Where the hell is the Tyrant - Spoilers
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#22
tiam 
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Posted 24 September 2014 - 08:54 PM
I agree with OP that the Tyrant thing was completely overlooked. There seems to be varying opinions onsite about the dangers of Assail and the Tyrant (ranging from it being a Malaz twist to feeling short changed to someone referring to it as being 'catfished') and I agree with the latter.
The Lanas Tog lie/embelishment also cannot stand as we see other POVs from Cotillion and others that stress the dangers of Assail. Someone with an electronic copy of the book could look up all the Assail references. Simply put the continent itself doesnt match up to its reputation. I understand this is subjective but I think Assail is the least dangerous continent weve seen.
There is no other continent that weve seen that could be over run by treasure hunters. It is difficult to get to with the sea of Dread (the Dreaded Sea, the Sea that is Dreaded, Dreaded stretch of Water resembling a Sea) but has low population that is turned aside with disorganised numbers. The entire continent reminds me of the Teblor in northern Genbackis with individually skilled warriors with some marginal magical powers being over run by the numbers and organisation. It has a lone solitary Jaghut of passable power, certainly no Raest despite her effort to launch a new batch of ice, and the only danger is the actual Assail on Assail which were told is a myth by Fisher so cannot contribute toward Assails dangerous reputation. Fisher even tells us that he has seen goldrush style invasions happen in other lands and now it is happening to his homeland.
It is the absence of these Tyrants for whom the wars are but a game. However these arent wars, simply low level skirmishes. The sheer number involved are tiny in comparison to some of battles weve seen yet alone entire wars or continents. As for Mist and such representing these dangerous Tyrants it doesnt really wash. Theres a few hundred pirate turned farmers in Mists territory. Not enough to cause a stir on the grand scale of things. The Tyrant plotline simply isnt there.
If you put Himatan on Assail and the continent becomes the last refuge of ancient entities protected from the outside world by Jaghut ice and the protection of the FA then it becomes ten times more dangerous. Or some endless cycle of deathless Tyrant controlled demons, providing a link to OST, that is simply power struggle of territorial shifting with one Tyrant gaining an advantage only to have the other band against him and restore the balance of power. Im not disappointed with Assail because these particular pet theories didnt pan out but because no theory we had panned out as it wasnt addressed.
I have no problem with the Imass being killed and believe this is a typical Malaz twist on things thats why I havnt mentioned it. Also I thought it was well written and that ICE writing style is very solid.
The Lanas Tog lie/embelishment also cannot stand as we see other POVs from Cotillion and others that stress the dangers of Assail. Someone with an electronic copy of the book could look up all the Assail references. Simply put the continent itself doesnt match up to its reputation. I understand this is subjective but I think Assail is the least dangerous continent weve seen.
There is no other continent that weve seen that could be over run by treasure hunters. It is difficult to get to with the sea of Dread (the Dreaded Sea, the Sea that is Dreaded, Dreaded stretch of Water resembling a Sea) but has low population that is turned aside with disorganised numbers. The entire continent reminds me of the Teblor in northern Genbackis with individually skilled warriors with some marginal magical powers being over run by the numbers and organisation. It has a lone solitary Jaghut of passable power, certainly no Raest despite her effort to launch a new batch of ice, and the only danger is the actual Assail on Assail which were told is a myth by Fisher so cannot contribute toward Assails dangerous reputation. Fisher even tells us that he has seen goldrush style invasions happen in other lands and now it is happening to his homeland.
It is the absence of these Tyrants for whom the wars are but a game. However these arent wars, simply low level skirmishes. The sheer number involved are tiny in comparison to some of battles weve seen yet alone entire wars or continents. As for Mist and such representing these dangerous Tyrants it doesnt really wash. Theres a few hundred pirate turned farmers in Mists territory. Not enough to cause a stir on the grand scale of things. The Tyrant plotline simply isnt there.
If you put Himatan on Assail and the continent becomes the last refuge of ancient entities protected from the outside world by Jaghut ice and the protection of the FA then it becomes ten times more dangerous. Or some endless cycle of deathless Tyrant controlled demons, providing a link to OST, that is simply power struggle of territorial shifting with one Tyrant gaining an advantage only to have the other band against him and restore the balance of power. Im not disappointed with Assail because these particular pet theories didnt pan out but because no theory we had panned out as it wasnt addressed.
I have no problem with the Imass being killed and believe this is a typical Malaz twist on things thats why I havnt mentioned it. Also I thought it was well written and that ICE writing style is very solid.
This post has been edited by tiam: 24 September 2014 - 09:22 PM
#23
the broken
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Posted 01 October 2014 - 01:38 AM
tiam, on 24 September 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:
I agree with OP that the Tyrant thing was completely overlooked. There seems to be varying opinions onsite about the dangers of Assail and the Tyrant (ranging from it being a Malaz twist to feeling short changed to someone referring to it as being 'catfished') and I agree with the latter.
The Lanas Tog lie/embelishment also cannot stand as we see other POVs from Cotillion and others that stress the dangers of Assail. Someone with an electronic copy of the book could look up all the Assail references. Simply put the continent itself doesnt match up to its reputation. I understand this is subjective but I think Assail is the least dangerous continent weve seen.
There is no other continent that weve seen that could be over run by treasure hunters. It is difficult to get to with the sea of Dread (the Dreaded Sea, the Sea that is Dreaded, Dreaded stretch of Water resembling a Sea) but has low population that is turned aside with disorganised numbers. The entire continent reminds me of the Teblor in northern Genbackis with individually skilled warriors with some marginal magical powers being over run by the numbers and organisation. It has a lone solitary Jaghut of passable power, certainly no Raest despite her effort to launch a new batch of ice, and the only danger is the actual Assail on Assail which were told is a myth by Fisher so cannot contribute toward Assails dangerous reputation. Fisher even tells us that he has seen goldrush style invasions happen in other lands and now it is happening to his homeland.
It is the absence of these Tyrants for whom the wars are but a game. However these arent wars, simply low level skirmishes. The sheer number involved are tiny in comparison to some of battles weve seen yet alone entire wars or continents. As for Mist and such representing these dangerous Tyrants it doesnt really wash. Theres a few hundred pirate turned farmers in Mists territory. Not enough to cause a stir on the grand scale of things. The Tyrant plotline simply isnt there.
If you put Himatan on Assail and the continent becomes the last refuge of ancient entities protected from the outside world by Jaghut ice and the protection of the FA then it becomes ten times more dangerous. Or some endless cycle of deathless Tyrant controlled demons, providing a link to OST, that is simply power struggle of territorial shifting with one Tyrant gaining an advantage only to have the other band against him and restore the balance of power. Im not disappointed with Assail because these particular pet theories didnt pan out but because no theory we had panned out as it wasnt addressed.
I have no problem with the Imass being killed and believe this is a typical Malaz twist on things thats why I havnt mentioned it. Also I thought it was well written and that ICE writing style is very solid.
The Lanas Tog lie/embelishment also cannot stand as we see other POVs from Cotillion and others that stress the dangers of Assail. Someone with an electronic copy of the book could look up all the Assail references. Simply put the continent itself doesnt match up to its reputation. I understand this is subjective but I think Assail is the least dangerous continent weve seen.
There is no other continent that weve seen that could be over run by treasure hunters. It is difficult to get to with the sea of Dread (the Dreaded Sea, the Sea that is Dreaded, Dreaded stretch of Water resembling a Sea) but has low population that is turned aside with disorganised numbers. The entire continent reminds me of the Teblor in northern Genbackis with individually skilled warriors with some marginal magical powers being over run by the numbers and organisation. It has a lone solitary Jaghut of passable power, certainly no Raest despite her effort to launch a new batch of ice, and the only danger is the actual Assail on Assail which were told is a myth by Fisher so cannot contribute toward Assails dangerous reputation. Fisher even tells us that he has seen goldrush style invasions happen in other lands and now it is happening to his homeland.
It is the absence of these Tyrants for whom the wars are but a game. However these arent wars, simply low level skirmishes. The sheer number involved are tiny in comparison to some of battles weve seen yet alone entire wars or continents. As for Mist and such representing these dangerous Tyrants it doesnt really wash. Theres a few hundred pirate turned farmers in Mists territory. Not enough to cause a stir on the grand scale of things. The Tyrant plotline simply isnt there.
If you put Himatan on Assail and the continent becomes the last refuge of ancient entities protected from the outside world by Jaghut ice and the protection of the FA then it becomes ten times more dangerous. Or some endless cycle of deathless Tyrant controlled demons, providing a link to OST, that is simply power struggle of territorial shifting with one Tyrant gaining an advantage only to have the other band against him and restore the balance of power. Im not disappointed with Assail because these particular pet theories didnt pan out but because no theory we had panned out as it wasnt addressed.
I have no problem with the Imass being killed and believe this is a typical Malaz twist on things thats why I havnt mentioned it. Also I thought it was well written and that ICE writing style is very solid.
Fisher clearly doesn't actually believe that the Forkrul Assail are a myth, he just wants to believe it, he spends the whole book telling people to stay away from from the place where they are, he wouldn't do that if he actually thought nothing was there.
What I think we need to remember is that most of the heavy hitters in the world have very long memories. If the place was more dangerous three thousand years ago, they remember it, and most of them will be educated enough to know the significance of the fact that the continent is called Assail. They also know about convergence, so anyt serious powers that go there are pretty likely to encounter said Assail.
Mid tier fighters like Spinnock will have a hard time, because the one thing about Assail is that every single native inhabitant wants you dead, and is a tough fighter due to the Jaghut blood. A tough enough fighter could cut a path, but...why bother? It's a high risk for no gain. Sure an army could overrun the continent, but until they find out about the gold, why bother? It will be a tough fight, and there's nothing to be gained from it. Low level fighters will get taken out by the wreckers or the iceblood tribes, unless they bring an army. Armies are expensive, though, and dont get sent without a good reason.
#24
Malaz Mule
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Posted 09 May 2016 - 01:27 PM
Witnessed, on 10 September 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:
I'm sorry but I think that's crap, just my opinion but it was a waste of a very interesting story arc! I have loved these books since they were first published and my fellow Malazan reading buddy and myself have long sat round a table getting pissed talking about what the hell could be so nasty in Assail that even the gods have left it alone. Nothing I read suggested to me that a couple of well equipped, veteran Malaz armies couldn't sort out
Absolutely agree. I think that's what was so jarring to me about this book. Not that my pet fantasies didnt get address but, after all that build up its just a bit of tribal warfare? OK, really badass jaghut skirmishing but really it wasnt all that. The "pocket army" came up against about 20 jhag farmers or whatever, there was a fight in a barn and then there was a chat. Things get more dangerous in my home town on a saturday night...
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Reading about a guy who could convince his human soldiers to follow him into the war with freakin' Imass armies would be fun... But no, let's not have too much fun. Let's have another Imass be behind it all.
Boom. Headshot.
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I disagree (again. I'm not an agreeable person it seems). If we're talking about a geographical place, Himatan or the Glass Desert are more dangerous. And Lether has not only the desert, but the first (and only) Jaghut army. Jaghut eat Pure FA for breakfast, like Hood gracefully demonstrated.
Agreed. It felt to me like the book should have STARTED with the forkrul waking up. This is fantasy fiction! We want the big stuff. We want two trains smashing into each other. Thats part of the joy! If i wanted kitchen sink minimalist plays i can read them elsewhere.
tiam, on 24 September 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:
There is no other continent that weve seen that could be over run by treasure hunters.
It is the absence of these Tyrants for whom the wars are but a game. However these arent wars, simply low level skirmishes. The sheer number involved are tiny in comparison to some of battles weve seen yet alone entire wars or continents. As for Mist and such representing these dangerous Tyrants it doesnt really wash. Theres a few hundred pirate turned farmers in Mists territory. Not enough to cause a stir on the grand scale of things. The Tyrant plotline simply isnt there.
It is the absence of these Tyrants for whom the wars are but a game. However these arent wars, simply low level skirmishes. The sheer number involved are tiny in comparison to some of battles weve seen yet alone entire wars or continents. As for Mist and such representing these dangerous Tyrants it doesnt really wash. Theres a few hundred pirate turned farmers in Mists territory. Not enough to cause a stir on the grand scale of things. The Tyrant plotline simply isnt there.
Agreed again. Even just taking the simple option of multipying the numbers of people involved by 10 or 100 would have at least had the effect of making things seem a bit weighty. Everything was just so small-scale compared to other events, it cant help but pale in comparison. There were probably more soldiers and big events in night of knives or the night when Tavore returns to meet Laseen...
Also, if i ever see the term "pocket army" or "pocket navy" again... God help me... (shout out to "cyclopean" from B&B as well)
#25
Gorefest
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Posted 09 May 2016 - 01:45 PM
I partly agree with the notion that Assail didn't live up to its hype, but we must not forget the passage of time here. This is an important theme that runs through all the books and reflects SE and ICE's background as archeologists.
We encounter the Teblor in HoC who are a rather sad remnant of a once great Toblakai race. Now they are a few scattered tribes whose in-fighting and isolation simply mean that they are slowly causing their own final downfall. The same can be said for the Icebloods. We are seeing these remnants of a tribal society that in the past clearly was a lot more impressive than in the current day. Just look at the size of the Greathalls. These are Jaghut descendants and there used to be quite a lot of them. But again isolation and in-fighting severely reduced their numbers. So what once may have been a formidable threat is now a bleak and somewhat disappointing relic. Don't forget that the Jaghut ice has only recently started melting in the world and so Assail has been in isolation for a long time; most of the available intel on the continent will be of a bygone age.
So at some point in history you have a continent with a whole bunch of FA (now sleeping) and a whole bunch of Jaghut offspring, with no doubt the odd full-blood Jaghut here and there doing some tyranny stuff. That is bloody scary in anyone's book. Then the T'Lan Imass do some cleansing, time passes, and ice melts, and suddenly the place doesn't really live up to the hype anymore. It's a sad observation, but more often than not it is an accurate reflection of what we encounter ourselves in our histories as well (Inca civilization, the Zulus, the Mayas, etc). You can dislike the angle ICE has chosen here, where he could also have gone full blast for a maniac island with overpowered tyrants roaming every corner, but ICE is all about overturning tropes and his inner archeologist probably appreciated the irony of it all.
We encounter the Teblor in HoC who are a rather sad remnant of a once great Toblakai race. Now they are a few scattered tribes whose in-fighting and isolation simply mean that they are slowly causing their own final downfall. The same can be said for the Icebloods. We are seeing these remnants of a tribal society that in the past clearly was a lot more impressive than in the current day. Just look at the size of the Greathalls. These are Jaghut descendants and there used to be quite a lot of them. But again isolation and in-fighting severely reduced their numbers. So what once may have been a formidable threat is now a bleak and somewhat disappointing relic. Don't forget that the Jaghut ice has only recently started melting in the world and so Assail has been in isolation for a long time; most of the available intel on the continent will be of a bygone age.
So at some point in history you have a continent with a whole bunch of FA (now sleeping) and a whole bunch of Jaghut offspring, with no doubt the odd full-blood Jaghut here and there doing some tyranny stuff. That is bloody scary in anyone's book. Then the T'Lan Imass do some cleansing, time passes, and ice melts, and suddenly the place doesn't really live up to the hype anymore. It's a sad observation, but more often than not it is an accurate reflection of what we encounter ourselves in our histories as well (Inca civilization, the Zulus, the Mayas, etc). You can dislike the angle ICE has chosen here, where he could also have gone full blast for a maniac island with overpowered tyrants roaming every corner, but ICE is all about overturning tropes and his inner archeologist probably appreciated the irony of it all.
This post has been edited by Gorefest: 09 May 2016 - 01:51 PM
Yesterday, upon the stair, I saw a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. Oh, how I wish he'd go away.
#26
Amby Bole
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Posted 04 August 2016 - 06:54 PM
I liked this book, it was really good for finishing things. What did you want?:
1- Army of FA = Already have that on TCG
2- Jaghut Tyrant = Memories of ice, go re-read that, be happy
3- One badass human strong enough to destroy the Tlan imass = It would be an ascendant or god, we should've heard something of him before.
So no thanks, i liked this one just like it is, peace for the jaghut and their succesors, so they can finally live in peace without being hunted by an undead army. Peace for the Imass, who were compelled and probably cheated by Olar Ethil during the ritual. Hope it gets clear on the karkhanas trillogy.
So yeah, peace, the older races giving room to the humans to make their own mistakes, gods know they already did plenty much of that and being old didn't grant them any wisdom.
1- Army of FA = Already have that on TCG
2- Jaghut Tyrant = Memories of ice, go re-read that, be happy
3- One badass human strong enough to destroy the Tlan imass = It would be an ascendant or god, we should've heard something of him before.
So no thanks, i liked this one just like it is, peace for the jaghut and their succesors, so they can finally live in peace without being hunted by an undead army. Peace for the Imass, who were compelled and probably cheated by Olar Ethil during the ritual. Hope it gets clear on the karkhanas trillogy.
So yeah, peace, the older races giving room to the humans to make their own mistakes, gods know they already did plenty much of that and being old didn't grant them any wisdom.
