Malazan Empire: Where the hell is the Tyrant - Spoilers - Malazan Empire

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Where the hell is the Tyrant - Spoilers

#1 User is offline   Witnessed 

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 09:59 PM

I had the impression (not that it explicitly said) from MoI that it was a human tyrant, that made Raest look like his undead pussy cat, that was the real danger in Assail?! I think it was Envy with the Seguleh bodyguards who happened upon the T'lan Imass floating on an iceberg, that said it was a human tyrant completely destroying whole armies of T'lan?!?! I was a bit disappointed by this and the previous two ICE books, lots of build up then.......nothing. Gutted is an understatement, I really thought we were in for non-stop, intense, mage battles and sword fights to rival Rake and Dassems every other page! The build up to Assail has been huge throughout the entire series but, in my opinion it hasn't delivered. Anyone else feel the same? Oh and if Jethiss is Rake I will be seriously pissed!
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#2 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 10:11 PM

Fighting is lame. The human tyrants with their games were (for example) Mist, the Sharrs, and the Sheers.
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Posted 09 September 2014 - 10:13 PM

Lanas Tog lied. Sfox tells us this at least twice.
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#4 User is offline   Witnessed 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 07:04 AM

I must of missed those parts. So if that is the case, who impaled her and why did she lie? I got the impression that the demi tyrants had never seen the T'lan before, only heard/read about them, judging by their reactions when Lanas and co turned up at each of their minidoms.
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#5 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 08:25 AM

Aye, Lanas Tog lied. She lied to Silverfox. She lied to the Kerluhm. She's the worst person on that continent. She lied because she wanted revenge for being beaten ages ago, and manipulated the Kerluhm by denying them the Redeemer's gift and making them wipe out most of an entire continent, only to get a "ah well, never mind" at the end.
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#6 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 09:37 AM

Well I mean Mist, the Sharrs, the Sheers, etc. are the watered down version of the things Lanas Tog was claiming. She may have witnessed stronger human-Jhag Tyrants in the thousands of years she's been around on Assail, but I certainly agree that Tog also lied to Silverfox about the urgency of what was currently going on in modern Malazan times. As has been discussed elsewhere, it was a lie embedded in a truth.
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#7 User is offline   Witnessed 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 10:44 AM

I'm sorry but I think that's crap, just my opinion but it was a waste of a very interesting story arc! I have loved these books since they were first published and my fellow Malazan reading buddy and myself have long sat round a table getting pissed talking about what the hell could be so nasty in Assail that even the gods have left it alone. Nothing I read suggested to me that a couple of well equipped, veteran Malaz armies couldn't sort out! Slightly off topic, is there any viable reason that Jethiss couldn't be Scabandari?! Just thought I would throw that out there, I know his soul is being held by Gothos I think but it could work....
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#8 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:28 AM

Viable reason? Scabandari was Edur, Jethiss is Andii.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
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#9 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:34 AM

I for one am happy that the idea of human tyrants able to take apart thousands of T'lan Imass was scrapped.
Now while there is still a little part of me that wanted Assail to be more dangerious, I always hated the Human Tyrant idea. And its in the very first mention of Assail that we got in the series.

And yet Assail IS probably the most dangerious part on the Malazan planet still. Its whats in those caves that make it so.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 10 September 2014 - 11:35 AM

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#10 User is offline   Witnessed 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 12:14 PM

POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR FORGE BELOW!!!!







I only say Bloodeye due to what little we know about the Tiste civil war and all the Liosan and Edur, in affect, turned away from MD. Maybe that was what was meant by the getting lost along the way comment (or something like that) and coming back to her which could then mean by embracing MD again they are Andii?! Madness I know but maybe it isn't Spin or Rake but someone else.

As to the human tyrant thing, I have thought of the humans as being the emerging 'super race' and thought it was the common theme throughout all the books. For good and indeed bad reasons!
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#11 User is offline   theocean 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 12:38 PM

I was a little let down with the magnitude of seriuous threats on assail too... I mean there are definatly hardships to the place, but it seemed like there was no overpowering evil being there.



i want Jethiss to be andarist, there is zero evidence it is, and no clues in that direction but oh well.

This post has been edited by theocean: 10 September 2014 - 12:39 PM

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#12 User is offline   polishgenius 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 04:06 PM

View PostWitnessed, on 10 September 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I think that's crap, just my opinion but it was a waste of a very interesting story arc!



Personally, although ICE could have spent more time on it, I find the idea of an Imass lying to get her own petty revenge and manipulating her people into (yet more) genocide a more compelling story arc than yet another badass evil Tyrant. And he's shown a tendency to subvert and avoid the obvious thing before, in both Blood & Bone and especially the ending of OST.

And in hindsight, now that it's revealed not to be the case, I'm thinking any new human tyrant would have a hard time being more horrible-yet-impressive than Kallor anyway.

Plus, yeah, although Assail wasn't quite as dangerous as it had previously been made out to be, it still sold the idea of being the most dangerous place in the world. And the Forkrul Assail we saw here were far more satisfying despite their brief pagetime than the Bond villains we saw in tCG.
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#13 User is offline   Witnessed 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 05:52 PM

Maybe I just built the place up to unAssailable (ha) heights in my wait for the book.

I love these books, all of them, but there are too many disparities across the series that I am finding hard to ignore or understand. I get that it's the authors prerogative to do as they like with their own work and to hell with us readers if we don't like it! Maybe I'm just pissed it didn't turn out how I thought it would, having made up my mind years ago and how bloody dare he change my ending!
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#14 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 06:28 PM

View Postpolishgenius, on 10 September 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

Personally, although ICE could have spent more time on it, I find the idea of an Imass lying to get her own petty revenge and manipulating her people into (yet more) genocide a more compelling story arc than yet another badass evil Tyrant.

Personally, I completely disagree :p There may have been a few Tyrants, but an Imass with a personal agenda is not what I would call a rarity in the Malazan world either. Without going into the details of the nature of their uniqeness, we have Tool, Onrack, the Raraku one, 7 gods of Teblor etc. True, Lanas' story is compelling but let's face it, they all are. Let's not even bring up the previous human(?) tyrant that ICE offered us - he was such an embarassment that he died while trying to catch a dancing fatman (uhh, some kind of a metaphor against taking hard drugs maybe? dunno :D ). Obviously even ICE noticed that writing tyrants isn't his forte. Probably why we got Lanas Tog in the end.

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And in hindsight, now that it's revealed not to be the case, I'm thinking any new human tyrant would have a hard time being more horrible-yet-impressive than Kallor anyway.

He doesn't have to be evil, horrible or anything like that. A Tyrant may be simply a military leader who was brilliant and ambitious enough to reach for the power. Reading about a guy who could convince his human soldiers to follow him into the war with freakin' Imass armies would be fun... But no, let's not have too much fun. Let's have another Imass be behind it all.
And I realise that I'm basically describing an evil twin brother of Coltaine. But let's face it, we had a lot of Imass, and definitely not enough Coltaines. And if he happened to have questionable morals? Even better :p

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Plus, yeah, although Assail wasn't quite as dangerous as it had previously been made out to be, it still sold the idea of being the most dangerous place in the world. And the Forkrul Assail we saw here were far more satisfying despite their brief pagetime than the Bond villains we saw in tCG.

I disagree (again. I'm not an agreeable person it seems). If we're talking about a geographical place, Himatan or the Glass Desert are more dangerous. And Lether has not only the desert, but the first (and only) Jaghut army. Jaghut eat Pure FA for breakfast, like Hood gracefully demonstrated.

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 10 September 2014 - 06:28 PM

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#15 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 09:18 AM

It's not the first time we've seen this in the books - that characters/situations are built up to be uber and then disappoint, at the choice of the author.

Personally I think the tie-in was done quite well - Lanas Tog's simple and understated manipulation of events - from her first conversation with Lady Envy in MoI, which got us all excited about Assail in the first place, through to Spinnock's conversation with Rake at the beginning of Toll The Hounds where he describes his exit from Assail and also foreshadows Spinnock's destiny, even to the point of discussing the requirement for a new weapon and Rake's reply "That time is yet to arrive Spinnock Durav".

I also agree with polishgenius point above regarding the Forkrul Assail as written by ICE - he managed to convey a sense of "you really don't want to piss these guys off" very nicely. Just a shame it was so brief.
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#16 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 10:06 AM

View PostHetan (Also Actually Probably Mal), on 11 September 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

I also agree with polishgenius point above regarding the Forkrul Assail as written by ICE - he managed to convey a sense of "you really don't want to piss these guys off" very nicely.

Then I agree to disagree because the whole FA emerge with their funny heads out of their little caves didn't really move me.
However, I'm not gonna argue that point any further because I admit that ICE knows how to write horror-y stories so it is probably just me. But at this point I have had enough build-ups (some were dissapointments, some were not) to be impressed by another one that lacks a clear resolution.

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It's not the first time we've seen this in the books - that characters/situations are built up to be uber and then disappoint, at the choice of the author

Absolutely no offence meant, just curiosity: I would really like to understand why would any author choose to 'pump and dump' a character like the OST Tyrant. I'm pretty sure it is not the case of 'it was just a myth, reality is different' storyline because he was portrayed as quite a menace, so I tend to automatically attribute developments like that to human error.

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 11 September 2014 - 02:20 PM

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#17 User is offline   Zaloopa 

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 05:09 AM

What really gets me is that everyone who showed up for the gold seemed to choose the most dangerous way onto the continent possible. At one point the mare ship sends some people onto the northern coast and they get attacked, but I still don't see why a larger force wouldn't just land there and head to the sea of gold overland instead of trying to sail through all the deathtraps around the sea of dread. Also after seeing how much of a miracle it was for people to get through the sea of dread I was amazed to see how many ships had already made it to the sea of gold.
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#18 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 01:57 PM

It's a gold rush. Cooperation is like the polar opposite of the mentality of most of these people. The larger the force, the more people you're sharing your payoff with.
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#19 User is offline   Zaloopa 

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:58 AM

View Postworry, on 15 September 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

It's a gold rush. Cooperation is like the polar opposite of the mentality of most of these people. The larger the force, the more people you're sharing your payoff with.



Teal seemed to have a large enough force to pull it off.
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#20 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 05:09 PM

View PostZaloopa, on 16 September 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

View Postworry, on 15 September 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

It's a gold rush. Cooperation is like the polar opposite of the mentality of most of these people. The larger the force, the more people you're sharing your payoff with.



Teal seemed to have a large enough force to pull it off.


Sure, but then consider how that turned out.
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