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The Blade of Bone Spoilers for Assail

#61 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 11:20 PM

Except for the final remark about the barrow, every hint points to Rake.

So, it's either a deliberate attempt to fool us (and what's the point, if we get an up-magcked Spinnock we basically have Anomander?) or a weird 'mistake' snuck in at the end.

Also, Jethiss feels his old name no longer fits. The name Anomander (and all its variants) would inspire as the name of a leader of the Andii; rather annoying, as new leadership took over and is seemingly doing well enough. Spinnock Durav? Well that's mostly a good swordsman guy - not entirely fitting, but Jethiss did go to amazing lengths to get a sword.

I mean, I see where it's coming from, I just think Spinnock is a weird choice.
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#62 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 12:13 AM

No hints point at Rake uniquely. They're just filtered through Fisher's hopes of meeting his hero and most famous subject. And the fact that the barrow thing is the final remark should tell you something....because it's the reveal. Spinnock isn't just some good swordsman either, he is Rake's right hand man, his closest adviser (along with Endest), and possibly his best friend. One could even say Rake was grooming him for the role: knowing that he was going to make the big sacrifice in TTH, Rake encouraged Spinnock to play Kef Tanar, and not surprisingly Spin winds up leading the Andii at Lightfall. And Jethiss isn't going to lead the TA in the same way Rake did, since both Mother Dark and Nimander are both around.
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#63 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 11:35 AM

View Postworry, on 07 December 2014 - 12:13 AM, said:

No hints point at Rake uniquely. They're just filtered through Fisher's hopes of meeting his hero and most famous subject. And the fact that the barrow thing is the final remark should tell you something....because it's the reveal. Spinnock isn't just some good swordsman either, he is Rake's right hand man, his closest adviser (along with Endest), and possibly his best friend. One could even say Rake was grooming him for the role: knowing that he was going to make the big sacrifice in TTH, Rake encouraged Spinnock to play Kef Tanar, and not surprisingly Spin winds up leading the Andii at Lightfall. And Jethiss isn't going to lead the TA in the same way Rake did, since both Mother Dark and Nimander are both around.


Oh, I agree, many hints exist that are multi-interpetable, and I'll have to read through more of the discussions here :The Force:

But then... Spinnock died/vanished (IF he did, which is only a theory) fighting at a breach. Anomander vanished at the feet of a gate. If we take only the final statement, it's not clear-cut which it is, either - it only is when limited to the final sentence.

And, I add, I was not arguing from evidence, I was arguing from taste. Evidence will require a full reread knowing Spinnock is another candidate (though I do, also, note Jethiss in his very FIRST discussion seems awfully triggered by the word sword, when Spinnock, while having a fancy sword, doesn't have a very significant one).
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#64 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 09:18 PM

I getcha. But he does have a significant sword, I'm afraid. It's the family Hust sword, passed down through generations, which he abandons after the duel with Kallor. We don't get a lot of details, but it can be surmised that the Durav line take their martial prowess very seriously, even sacredly, as is their position among the Tiste infrastructure (as humble as Spinnock himself is, even though he is right there with Rake and peers with Endest and for that matter the High Priestess).
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#65 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 09:40 PM

View Postworry, on 07 December 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

I getcha. But he does have a significant sword, I'm afraid. It's the family Hust sword, passed down through generations, which he abandons after the duel with Kallor. We don't get a lot of details, but it can be surmised that the Durav line take their martial prowess very seriously, even sacredly, as is their position among the Tiste infrastructure (as humble as Spinnock himself is, even though he is right there with Rake and peers with Endest and for that matter the High Priestess).


Well. I suppose it can be argued after a fashion, but it obviously pales compared to Dragnipur or even Grief.
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#66 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 10:04 PM

Nevertheless, I'm still leaning heavily towards Spinnock. Most references throughout the book are deliberately vague, teasing with Rake but also easily interpretable for Spinnock (both were associated with swords and gates, both are presumed dead, etc), but the final 'barrow' and Kef Tanar reference are too blatant in my opinion not to be a deliberate reveal to Jethiss' identity as Spinnock Durav. I know ICE is widely regarded as less of a writer than SE, but I think we are giving him very little credit if we assume that he is even screwing up plot reveals.
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#67 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 10:18 PM

View PostAvernite, on 07 December 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

View Postworry, on 07 December 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

I getcha. But he does have a significant sword, I'm afraid. It's the family Hust sword, passed down through generations, which he abandons after the duel with Kallor. We don't get a lot of details, but it can be surmised that the Durav line take their martial prowess very seriously, even sacredly, as is their position among the Tiste infrastructure (as humble as Spinnock himself is, even though he is right there with Rake and peers with Endest and for that matter the High Priestess).


Well. I suppose it can be argued after a fashion, but it obviously pales compared to Dragnipur or even Grief.


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#68 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 06:30 AM

View PostGorefest, on 07 December 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

Nevertheless, I'm still leaning heavily towards Spinnock. Most references throughout the book are deliberately vague, teasing with Rake but also easily interpretable for Spinnock (both were associated with swords and gates, both are presumed dead, etc), but the final 'barrow' and Kef Tanar reference are too blatant in my opinion not to be a deliberate reveal to Jethiss' identity as Spinnock Durav. I know ICE is widely regarded as less of a writer than SE, but I think we are giving him very little credit if we assume that he is even screwing up plot reveals.


As far as I recall, Spinnock is only presumed dead (or vanished) because of Assail, not because TCG says so. And his link to Gates is something I don't see... a breach, yes, he was last seen fighting at the breach in lightfall. But reinterpreting that to fitting the 'gate' reference at the end IMO requires near as much explaining as making Rake fit the second part of that statement (the bit about Kef Tanar).
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#69 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 11:40 AM

Lightfall itself is a gate, it is a gateway between Kurald Thyrllan and Kurald Galain. Spinnock is also presumed dead in TCG, where we see Korlat pay homage to Spinnock with a polished stone, implying that the Tiste assume he died at Lightfall.
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#70 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 08:54 PM

View PostGorefest, on 08 December 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Lightfall itself is a gate, it is a gateway between Kurald Thyrllan and Kurald Galain. Spinnock is also presumed dead in TCG, where we see Korlat pay homage to Spinnock with a polished stone, implying that the Tiste assume he died at Lightfall.


It's never called a gate, as far as I know; as I say, it can be argued, but it's a stretch, similar to saying Anomander played Kef Tanar with a barrowed person in Coral is a stretch (and a bit bigger one, at that).

As to Korlat's stone, I don't see anything there making it clear the stones are for the deceased - they are for the ones you love or have loved, alive or dead.
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#71 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 09:15 PM

View PostAvernite, on 08 December 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

View PostGorefest, on 08 December 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Lightfall itself is a gate, it is a gateway between Kurald Thyrllan and Kurald Galain. Spinnock is also presumed dead in TCG, where we see Korlat pay homage to Spinnock with a polished stone, implying that the Tiste assume he died at Lightfall.


It's never called a gate, as far as I know; as I say, it can be argued, but it's a stretch, similar to saying Anomander played Kef Tanar with a barrowed person in Coral is a stretch (and a bit bigger one, at that).

As to Korlat's stone, I don't see anything there making it clear the stones are for the deceased - they are for the ones you love or have loved, alive or dead.


You are absolutely right. They are all stretches cuz we're not given every little piece of info we need and must interpret it one way or the other. ICE didn't "screw up" this bit, because its meant to be confusing on purpose.

So it could be Rake and it could be Spin.

But its definitely Spin.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#72 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 11:45 AM

View PostAvernite, on 08 December 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

As to Korlat's stone, I don't see anything there making it clear the stones are for the deceased - they are for the ones you love or have loved, alive or dead.


It's not made clear, but it is strongly implied.

"These stones were not to be surrendered. To give one up was to set down a love, to walk away from it evermore."

She has one for Rake, Spinnock, Whiskeyjack and Orfantal. They are a way to deal with grief, to get closure. So if she was going to offer up a stone for Spinnock, in my view it strongly suggests that she thinks that, even if he isn't dead, he is somehow lost forever.

As Stonny says, it is deliberately ambiguous, but the way that the book arc is constructed you have to assume that the reveal at the end about the barrow is the most significant pointer to Jethiss' identity, and until I read the discussions on various boards it had honestly not even occurred to me that this would even be an argument. If it turns out to be Rake after all, for me personally that would entail both terrible writing and a horrible plot decision.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 09 December 2014 - 11:47 AM

She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
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#73 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 03:03 PM

Not to mention taking a giant crap all over Toll the Hounds.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#74 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 06:41 PM

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 09 December 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Not to mention taking a giant crap all over Toll the Hounds.


Oh, I agree there. Rake's the only person seemingly actually DEAD dead.

But I also think it being Spinnock (or the Andii guy wanting to go to Coral rather than Kharkanas) is a horrible decision since Spinnock was already fine as a character; he could've done basically everything except getting a sword from his own arm more or less fine (he's not a mage, but heck).

And, of course, there's no reason for Spinnock to want to go to Coral, since he was alive when Seerdomin was buried... I mean, he can go back, sure, but why is that THE first thing? (same applies to Rake if the barrow of Itkovian is meant, of course).


In fact, if the reason 'it has to be a good idea' is applied we need to ditch the whole final paragraph, since I only see Andarist as an Andii guy who might have reason to be resurrected to be and do something else... all the rest work fine as who they are, or died so spectacularly it'd be lame to come back.


As to the stones, Korlat *suspects* she'll soon go out to find some for Nimander and Yan Tovis. Not fear, suspect. Seems to me it's a kind of 'I really truly love you' thing (not necessarily romantically)... seems a bit odd to 'suspect' people you love are about to die.
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#75 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 07:27 PM

She suspects all the people she loves are about to die because all the people she's loved have died.

Of all the Andii we know, Spin is one of the oldest, and if he fell or was taken by Mother Dark or Kurald Galaain, whatever and reborn on the shores of Assail to obtain a weapon as a sacrificial symbol of peace, I daresay he'd be my choice. Loyal, compassionate, brilliant, strong, sexy, dark, mysterious, looks good in leather...

Anyway, there's no reason it can't be him, and the ultimate fate of Spin in MBotF is definitely confusing, but I don't think its at all bad writing or even a bad decision, just not what some people expected. People wanted vicious tyrants and barely got them, instead getting a book about Kyle's maturation, Fisher's flaws, Andii guilt, somehwat rational Forkrul Assail, pathetic Jaghut descendants and Cartheron Crust badassness.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#76 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 07:41 PM

"Fine as a character" isn't good enough. Life and death interfere and people change, even against their will.
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#77 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:23 PM

View Postworry, on 09 December 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

"Fine as a character" isn't good enough. Life and death interfere and people change, even against their will.


Are you arguing with my taste? :The Force:
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#78 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 02:14 PM

View PostAvernite, on 09 December 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

And, of course, there's no reason for Spinnock to want to go to Coral, since he was alive when Seerdomin was buried... I mean, he can go back, sure, but why is that THE first thing? (same applies to Rake if the barrow of Itkovian is meant, of course).


It would not be Itkovian's barrow in any case, as that one is hardly modest. If Rake would be returning to any barrow it would most likely be Whiskeyjack's that would be referred to. And considering the relation that Spinnock and Seerdomin had, and the way Seerdomin died, surely it is perfectly understandable for Spinnock to desire such a pilgrimage after who knows how long dead/adrift/lost? Don't really see why that would be a logic stretch.
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#79 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 02:16 PM

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 09 December 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Anyway, there's no reason it can't be him, and the ultimate fate of Spin in MBotF is definitely confusing, but I don't think its at all bad writing or even a bad decision, just not what some people expected. People wanted vicious tyrants and barely got them, instead getting a book about Kyle's maturation, Fisher's flaws, Andii guilt, somehwat rational Forkrul Assail, pathetic Jaghut descendants and Cartheron Crust badassness.


And a terribly disappointing final stand-off. But yeah, there are other threads on that.

(But wow, how underwhelming)
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#80 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 06:08 PM

View PostGorefest, on 10 December 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

View PostAvernite, on 09 December 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

And, of course, there's no reason for Spinnock to want to go to Coral, since he was alive when Seerdomin was buried... I mean, he can go back, sure, but why is that THE first thing? (same applies to Rake if the barrow of Itkovian is meant, of course).


It would not be Itkovian's barrow in any case, as that one is hardly modest. If Rake would be returning to any barrow it would most likely be Whiskeyjack's that would be referred to. And considering the relation that Spinnock and Seerdomin had, and the way Seerdomin died, surely it is perfectly understandable for Spinnock to desire such a pilgrimage after who knows how long dead/adrift/lost? Don't really see why that would be a logic stretch.


It makes some sense, sure, but its position in the book gives it more weight (that is, it made me think, the first time, that said person died and Jethiss couldn't visit the barrow before - which seems odd in all cases of Coral barrows I can think of, except a Rake-Seerdomin pair).
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