[Aptorian]

I liked this book. That's right, in only took 5 tries but I finally like one of Esslemonts books. This is probably the first book Esslemont has written that I liked from beginning to end. Not counting Night of Knives, which is one of my favorite Malazan books all in all.

I bothered me that the book was designed in such a way that we kept revisiting the same locations over and over again, the Cursed Soldiers, the Sea of Dread, Mist, etc. but in a way it also had a formulaic comfort in how the story unfolded.

In very few, if any of the Malazan books, I have liked every one of the story threads, but somehow there was never a place in this book where I just wanted to skip the pages. The Orman and Reuth parts were probably the least interesting or most typical Malazan, but even they held my attention, mainly because of plentiful action scenes and their purpose in the overall story tapestry.

Initially I was deeply disappointed and annoyed that Assail was not the continent of crazy ascendant killing warfare that we somehow had gotten the idea of. How ever, as the stories unfolded, and you realized how antagonistic every single tribe is, you realize how grueling travel must be on the continent. EVERYONE is trying to kill you. Sure, if you're a badass with a wonderblade like for example Kyle, you can cut a line across the lands, but you are always watched, always hunted, always assailed. I liked that. Like the atmosphere Esslemont built around the jungle in Blood and Bone, Esslemont manages to effectively give the impression of an extremely hostile continent.

The ending was okay. Not great or mindblowing or anything but a fitting end to the culmination of the gold rush and genocide taking place. The Jaghut answer is always ice. It was cool to actually see a cataclysmic event happening for once. How ever, the ending, the founding of peace felt like a waste. The idea of "the four founding races" actually being an accord arbitrated by the Assail is such a cool revelation. It completely refashions the way we understand the Forkrul Assail and their role on Wu. We knew they were badass, but they kind of lost any glory the race had in The Crippled God. In this book how ever they once again become extremely scary. That was great, I enjoyed that, but such an ending, a scene so epic, T'lan Imass, Jaghut, Andii and humans converging, it feels completely wasted on the ending of this book and the series as a whole.

Which leads to my eternal complaint about the 5 books. They are so underwhelming. They pull their punches and never ever reach a true feeling of a crecendo, which is what you want the last book in a 5 part series to be. MoI sets up Assail as being the destination for hundreds of thousands of Imass to fight a last battle against a terrible power. One last war before their struggle is over. Instead we get a sort of Imass civil war where they are hunting a bunch of people who have Jaghut dna. How fucking underwhelming is that? And we never see all these Imass, we see a couple hundred of them and it somehow ends on the steps of a mountain when Silverfox says please be nice and then that is that?! WE WAITED OVER A DECADE FOR THAT BULLSHIT!

And what was the point of Osserc giving Kyle the sword? Why did Kyle need to go the mountain? Because of Ereko's stone? Really? That was it?

And MOTHERFUCKING ANOMANDER RAKE IS REBORN (or was he?) AND THIS IS HOW IT IS UNVEILED?! (Okay that whole Whiteblade and the Blade of Bone setup is a book I want to read but) COME ON THE FUCK!

Oh and fucking Cartheron Crust stole all those munitions in book one because... I don't even know.

And the Crimson Guard are T'lan Imass, hurh durh. YES WE ALREADY KNEW THAT FROM THE FIRST BOOK! It was abundantly clear when the vow was shown as having taken place at the site of a T'lan ritual. Was anyone surprised by this? I thought we were going to get some story about how Kazz mother was a K'Chain Matron or some shit.

And that Founding of Peace moment at the end of the book was just the fucking cherry on top of the pile of shit. I dare anyone to actually come up with a moment in the rest of the entire series, all 16-17 books or so, that was more monumental, more important or world changing than that meeting with the Forkrul Assail. This is a moment where, if I understood the gravity of the situation correctly, the entire fate of the world hung in the balance. Not only that, an accord was struck that demanded that all 4 races uphold a peace and not wage war upon one another, or for that matter anyone else, and this is when it takes place? Not at the end of the Crippled God? Not at the end of some other imaginary good story where an actual war had come to a head between Mankind and various other races? And with that set of characters? What a waste. What a depressing waste of such an epic moment in the series.

It just leaves me so fucking depressed that Esslemont writes these perfectly okay stories and then every single one of them leaves you thinking if only. If only they actually had the balls to go for the throat of the story. Urgh. Fuck.

[BenJ]

Totally disagree, Esslemont answered a lot of unanswered questions, and left us with even more. I thought it was great book that kept me entertained and brought me right back into that world. I think your looking for the wonder of the main series, and thats just not going to happen. I thought it was a great book and opened even more possibilities with what was exposed at the end with the Crimson Guard.

[Hetan]

Demon of High House Decay, on 02 September 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I liked this book. That's right, in only took 5 tries but I finally like one of Esslemonts books. This is probably the first book Esslemont has written that I liked from beginning to end. Not counting Night of Knives, which is one of my favorite Malazan books all in all...... but somehow there was never a place in this book where I just wanted to skip the pages.

Initially I was deeply disappointed and annoyed that Assail was not the continent of crazy ascendant killing warfare that we somehow had gotten the idea of.

The ending was okay. Not great or mindblowing or anything but a fitting end to the culmination of the gold rush and genocide taking place.

Which leads to my eternal complaint about the 5 books. They are so underwhelming. They pull their punches and never ever reach a true feeling of a crescendo, which is what you want the last book in a 5 part series to be.

MoI sets up Assail as being the destination for hundreds of thousands of Imass to fight a last battle against a terrible power. One last war before their struggle is over. Instead we get a sort of Imass civil war where they are hunting a bunch of people who have Jaghut dna. How fucking underwhelming is that? And we never see all these Imass, we see a couple hundred of them and it somehow ends on the steps of a mountain when Silverfox says please be nice and then that is that?!

And with that set of characters? What a waste. What a depressing waste of such an epic moment in the series. It just leaves me so fucking depressed that Esslemont writes these perfectly okay stories and then every single one of them leaves you thinking if only. If only they actually had the balls to go for the throat of the story. Urgh. Fuck.

It's been a while since I posted anything regarding books on here so I've just quoted the parts of the OP that I agree with.
I've also struggled with all of ICE's books - Assail was the first one I've actually managed to finish - the others were just so... meh.. with the exception of Nok which was such a tight little book.
I still feel that ICE should have been the Malazan Gemmell. He has proved with Assail and NoK that he can write a cohesive and fluid novel, which moves along at a fast enough pace to keep a person entertained, if not enthralled. From my PoV his previous books have been choppy and for whatever reason, I didn't sufficiently care about the characters and story line enough to 'need' to finish the books.

The one thing I really didn't like was the whole Rake/Spinnock spin - seemed like a cheap tactic to me. If it's meant to be Rake - make it Rake, If it's meant to be Spinnock - why?
The initial description of course made me think of Rake, as Spinnock is described as - " large for a Tiste Andii, wide-shouldered and strangely bearish. There was a faint reddish tinge to his long, unbound hair. His eyes were set wide apart on a broad, somewhat flat face, the cheekbones prominent and flaring. The slash that was his mouth was fixed in a grin, an expression that rarely wavered." Then we got into the whole "battle at a gate" thing and finished with the Kef Tanar quandry.... All in all I don't really care about the bone sword and I have absolutely no clue why, if it is Spinnock, he would need to be resurrected in this way either, but I'd be helluva disappointed if it did turn out to be AR. Awesome character as written by Steve, awesome death and I don't want to read any more of the lobotomised version of AR that we see in Assail.

Lamest things in the book - the non-revelation of the Crimson Guard vow and the totally underwhelming Silverfox - T'lan Imass storyline - poor thing.

So that's my mini-rant over - just to reiterate, I did enjoy the book and I really hope that whatever ICE writes next, he manages to progress his own style.

[theocean]

I kept waiting for Silverfox to do something, ANYTHING impressive. She seemed like she was made up to be a powerful entity of beings all put together to be a superbeing, and all she did was ride her horses and give the Tian she met an option to not kill the jaghut.

[Malaclypse]

Just to be clear, it was definitely Hetan and not me that posted upthread

I have only begun Assail and am slowly getting through it on my phone at work. Wossname has just absconded with the family spear as far as I know.

That being said and from what Hetan has shared with me, I believe this character has to be Spinnock for obvious reasons and the uncertainty is probably manufactured for effect. The problem with that is that this particular corner of fandom does not react well to such pointless deceptions. The payoff is missing.

Anyway, it's not impossible that I may come around to a different point of view and I do feel that Cam has a tough row to hoe and deserves a ton of respect for his efforts.

[worry]

To be frank, I think the "mystery" is character-based and so is its payoff (both mostly with another character, not the mystery character himself), and the resolution is clear and bittersweet. I'm not sure it's ever meant to mislead the reader so much as strike a shared chord of longing.

[Vaddon Ra]

Just finished, and am now reading Blood and Bone again to make sure...
I think I feel exactly the way I felt about blood and bone as I do Assail. I liked it, enjoyed the journey, loved some of the new characters and nods to old ones popping up...

Liked the answers to questions an awful lot... however I was disappointed with the lack of Finale...

I don't mean that the ending did not feel like an ending, to be honest I think I am so used to malazan books ending in a convergence that when Assail kind of ended with a bit of a parlay, that could have easily been a hugely entertaining and sprawling battle; and when Blood and bone ended with Skinner being munched instead of some glorious battle...

well

I just felt a bit... oh... oh, that's... that;s shame.. was kind of hoping Cowl would go at it against someone, was hoping for a bit more action from Jethiss etc etc

either way, I don't think either book is a huge appaling mess. I actually think they are both really good and can definitely see myself reading Assail again once iv gone in totally the wrong direction and reread stonewielder and ROTCG as well

I just wanted something a little more exciting as the finale is all. Ah well

give the man a break eh, he sounds like he was back to back writing the last few books and if does capitalize on pre empire trilogy books I would nerddribble all over that

Id give it a solid 8/10 missing perfect chunks for lack of assassin mage sword choppy goodness at the last..

but hey

could be worse.. could be Dance with Dragons

urgh!

[Vaddon Ra]

theocean, on 03 September 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I kept waiting for Silverfox to do something, ANYTHING impressive. She seemed like she was made up to be a powerful entity of beings all put together to be a superbeing, and all she did was ride her horses and give the Tian she met an option to not kill the jaghut.

Poor silverfox.... pretty much eclipsed in every book she was in by other more interesting and more awesome stuff XD

GOTM... tattersail vs bellurdan... ah well NOT AS COOL as the daru finale

MOI Silverfox (waaawaaawaaah) then THAT convergence

and now this... she... er... complained... then walked a bit... then complained... and was not as awesome as Jethiss/Fisher tag team, Kyle (shocker there eh ) and of course... the mighty Crust :PPPPP

Also... yeah she has a lot of powerful potential and did nothing. Alas, perhaps that was the point. Screw you perceptions

[Vaddon Ra]

[quote name='BenJ' timestamp='1409715239' post='1146942']
. I think your looking for the wonder of the main series, and thats just not going to happen.

I think this is completely true... but at the same time, Esslemont made Malazan with SE, together.. just because SE got published first does not mean one series should be the main one and this be a spin off, alas, I get that that is often how it feels. But ICE has gotten a whole wayyyyy lot better at writing in these last two novels and I really hope he makes his own contained, important malazan tale that doesn't need to fit inbetween any other "main" books or to particularly compliment or answer any questions either of the duo have posed.

If he does do a trilogy of old guard books (which I would love to death) I would love it to be it's own contained story, beginning and ending even though we know things that will come before and after.

Personally I got a lot of wonder out of ICE's books. I loved Greymane and the stormwall... I loved Kallor, oh my my my loved that. I loved the battle in ROTCG and the NOK story was great.

[theocean]

I thought this was much Better than B &B. But Very similar.

silver fox for the lack of A better word was lame As hell. After her threat was made to be so bad it lead to the death of one of the baddest Human characters In the series

This post has been edited by theocean: 03 September 2014 - 10:53 PM

[polishgenius]

I think this was a better series conclusion than tCG in a lot of ways, in terms of wrapping things up that had been running for books and books (and not just ICE's) in a satisfying way.

[Gothos]

Aptabulous Maximus, on 02 September 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Which leads to my eternal complaint about the 5 books. They are so underwhelming. They pull their punches and never ever reach a true feeling of a crecendo, which is what you want the last book in a 5 part series to be. MoI sets up Assail as being the destination for hundreds of thousands of Imass to fight a last battle against a terrible power. One last war before their struggle is over. Instead we get a sort of Imass civil war where they are hunting a bunch of people who have Jaghut dna. How fucking underwhelming is that? And we never see all these Imass, we see a couple hundred of them and it somehow ends on the steps of a mountain when Silverfox says please be nice and then that is that?! WE WAITED OVER A DECADE FOR THAT BULLSHIT!

I don't blame ICE for this story, I blame SE for the hype in MoI and others. It did this book a disservice, as I've been saying across the years.

Quote

And MOTHERFUCKING ANOMANDER RAKE IS REBORN (or was he?) AND THIS IS HOW IT IS UNVEILED?! (Okay that whole Whiteblade and the Blade of Bone setup is a book I want to read but) COME ON THE FUCK!

Rake? Nah I don't think so.

Quote

And that Founding of Peace moment at the end of the book was just the fucking cherry on top of the pile of shit. I dare anyone to actually come up with a moment in the rest of the entire series, all 16-17 books or so, that was more monumental, more important or world changing than that meeting with the Forkrul Assail. This is a moment where, if I understood the gravity of the situation correctly, the entire fate of the world hung in the balance. Not only that, an accord was struck that demanded that all 4 races uphold a peace and not wage war upon one another, or for that matter anyone else, and this is when it takes place? Not at the end of the Crippled God? Not at the end of some other imaginary good story where an actual war had come to a head between Mankind and various other races? And with that set of characters? What a waste. What a depressing waste of such an epic moment in the series.

The FA in TCG hardly seemed the type to adjudicate anything. Seems they were just a bunch of renegades who wanted to take matters into their own hands and just wipe everyone off the face of the Wu.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

COULD NOT BELIEVE THEY TOOK HIS FUCKIN ARM!

But yeah, that sums up my immediate thoughts after literally just finishing it. But I enjoyed it, classic Malazan convergence that is always good, a dose of Moranth munitions, some random big beasties fighting, some sword and board. All tick boxes for me. It was a shame there were no true epic battles after seeing some of them in the other books, but this answering the Crimson Guard questions is enough to satisfy me on its own. Not REALLY knowing who Jethiss is is a good hanger too, fucking harsh taking his arm though...Forkrul want slapping a bit more it would appear lol. Although I am glad that the Imass are finally leaving the Jaghut alone, this is relief. I would like to know more of what happens after this though, the journey of Fisher, Kyle and Jethiss should be interesting, what the Crimson Guard decide to do now they know they are essentially immortal until their caster appears. So another Crimson Guard book? Coming of the Crimson Caster?

[hadoken13]

Apt, on 02 September 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I bothered me that the book was designed in such a way that we kept revisiting the same locations over and over again, the Cursed Soldiers, the Sea of Dread, Mist, etc. but in a way it also had a formulaic comfort in how the story unfolded.

In very few, if any of the Malazan books, I have liked every one of the story threads, but somehow there was never a place in this book where I just wanted to skip the pages. The Orman and Reuth parts were probably the least interesting or most typical Malazan, but even they held my attention, mainly because of plentiful action scenes and their purpose in the overall story tapestry.

Initially I was deeply disappointed and annoyed that Assail was not the continent of crazy ascendant killing warfare that we somehow had gotten the idea of. How ever, as the stories unfolded, and you realized how antagonistic every single tribe is, you realize how grueling travel must be on the continent. EVERYONE is trying to kill you. Sure, if you're a badass with a wonderblade like for example Kyle, you can cut a line across the lands, but you are always watched, always hunted, always assailed. I liked that. Like the atmosphere Esslemont built around the jungle in Blood and Bone, Esslemont manages to effectively give the impression of an extremely hostile continent.

The ending was okay. Not great or mindblowing or anything but a fitting end to the culmination of the gold rush and genocide taking place. The Jaghut answer is always ice. It was cool to actually see a cataclysmic event happening for once. How ever, the ending, the founding of peace felt like a waste. The idea of "the four founding races" actually being an accord arbitrated by the Assail is such a cool revelation. It completely refashions the way we understand the Forkrul Assail and their role on Wu. We knew they were badass, but they kind of lost any glory the race had in The Crippled God. In this book how ever they once again become extremely scary. That was great, I enjoyed that, but such an ending, a scene so epic, T'lan Imass, Jaghut, Andii and humans converging, it feels completely wasted on the ending of this book and the series as a whole.

Which leads to my eternal complaint about the 5 books. They are so underwhelming. They pull their punches and never ever reach a true feeling of a crecendo, which is what you want the last book in a 5 part series to be. MoI sets up Assail as being the destination for hundreds of thousands of Imass to fight a last battle against a terrible power. One last war before their struggle is over. Instead we get a sort of Imass civil war where they are hunting a bunch of people who have Jaghut dna. How fucking underwhelming is that? And we never see all these Imass, we see a couple hundred of them and it somehow ends on the steps of a mountain when Silverfox says please be nice and then that is that?! WE WAITED OVER A DECADE FOR THAT BULLSHIT!

And what was the point of Osserc giving Kyle the sword? Why did Kyle need to go the mountain? Because of Ereko's stone? Really? That was it?

Oh and fucking Cartheron Crust stole all those munitions in book one because... I don't even know..

It just leaves me so fucking depressed that Esslemont writes these perfectly okay stories and then every single one of them leaves you thinking if only. If only they actually had the balls to go for the throat of the story. Urgh. Fuck.

That's exactly how I felt with this book too. It just left me with so many questions rather than finishing off a series. Why bother with Jethis when the story could have been told without him in it - I feel he didn't really add much in the end apart from leaving it open for another story.

theocean, on 03 September 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I kept waiting for Silverfox to do something, ANYTHING impressive. She seemed like she was made up to be a powerful entity of beings all put together to be a superbeing, and all she did was ride her horses and give the Tian she met an option to not kill the jaghut.

Wasn't that so disappointing? Did she do anything in any of the books?

[tiam]

Gothos, on 09 September 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

The FA in TCG hardly seemed the type to adjudicate anything. Seems they were just a bunch of renegades who wanted to take matters into their own hands and just wipe everyone off the face of the Wu.

Is it possible that the Forkrul on the mountain represent Forkrul rather than Forkrul Assail? Arent the Assail the priests of the Forulkan and couldnt the CG sect represent a religious sect? They wipe the slate clean to make it easier to adjudicate? The only thing against this is the FA in TCG put out a call across the globe for the remaining FA to join them but its possible that only referred to the priesthood.

As for Apts view I pretty much agree. Always underwhelmed by an ICE book.

[theocean]

hadoken13, on 18 September 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

Apt, on 02 September 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I bothered me that the book was designed in such a way that we kept revisiting the same locations over and over again, the Cursed Soldiers, the Sea of Dread, Mist, etc. but in a way it also had a formulaic comfort in how the story unfolded.

In very few, if any of the Malazan books, I have liked every one of the story threads, but somehow there was never a place in this book where I just wanted to skip the pages. The Orman and Reuth parts were probably the least interesting or most typical Malazan, but even they held my attention, mainly because of plentiful action scenes and their purpose in the overall story tapestry.

Initially I was deeply disappointed and annoyed that Assail was not the continent of crazy ascendant killing warfare that we somehow had gotten the idea of. How ever, as the stories unfolded, and you realized how antagonistic every single tribe is, you realize how grueling travel must be on the continent. EVERYONE is trying to kill you. Sure, if you're a badass with a wonderblade like for example Kyle, you can cut a line across the lands, but you are always watched, always hunted, always assailed. I liked that. Like the atmosphere Esslemont built around the jungle in Blood and Bone, Esslemont manages to effectively give the impression of an extremely hostile continent.

The ending was okay. Not great or mindblowing or anything but a fitting end to the culmination of the gold rush and genocide taking place. The Jaghut answer is always ice. It was cool to actually see a cataclysmic event happening for once. How ever, the ending, the founding of peace felt like a waste. The idea of "the four founding races" actually being an accord arbitrated by the Assail is such a cool revelation. It completely refashions the way we understand the Forkrul Assail and their role on Wu. We knew they were badass, but they kind of lost any glory the race had in The Crippled God. In this book how ever they once again become extremely scary. That was great, I enjoyed that, but such an ending, a scene so epic, T'lan Imass, Jaghut, Andii and humans converging, it feels completely wasted on the ending of this book and the series as a whole.

Which leads to my eternal complaint about the 5 books. They are so underwhelming. They pull their punches and never ever reach a true feeling of a crecendo, which is what you want the last book in a 5 part series to be. MoI sets up Assail as being the destination for hundreds of thousands of Imass to fight a last battle against a terrible power. One last war before their struggle is over. Instead we get a sort of Imass civil war where they are hunting a bunch of people who have Jaghut dna. How fucking underwhelming is that? And we never see all these Imass, we see a couple hundred of them and it somehow ends on the steps of a mountain when Silverfox says please be nice and then that is that?! WE WAITED OVER A DECADE FOR THAT BULLSHIT!

And what was the point of Osserc giving Kyle the sword? Why did Kyle need to go the mountain? Because of Ereko's stone? Really? That was it?

Oh and fucking Cartheron Crust stole all those munitions in book one because... I don't even know..

It just leaves me so fucking depressed that Esslemont writes these perfectly okay stories and then every single one of them leaves you thinking if only. If only they actually had the balls to go for the throat of the story. Urgh. Fuck.

That's exactly how I felt with this book too. It just left me with so many questions rather than finishing off a series. Why bother with Jethis when the story could have been told without him in it - I feel he didn't really add much in the end apart from leaving it open for another story.

theocean, on 03 September 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I kept waiting for Silverfox to do something, ANYTHING impressive. She seemed like she was made up to be a powerful entity of beings all put together to be a superbeing, and all she did was ride her horses and give the Tian she met an option to not kill the jaghut.

Wasn't that so disappointing? Did she do anything in any of the books?

She caused whiskeyjack to die, that uninteresting little bitch.

[worry]

What in blazes?

[Aptorian]

No, no, she did not.

Whiskeyjack was not forced to do anything. He chose to put himself between Kallor and Silverfox. It was a conscious decision to protect one person from another. He did that because of who he is. Silverfox had nothing to do with that. He wouldhave done that for anyone who he felt deserved it.

The blame for Whiskeyjacks death can only be laid at one mans feet and that is Kallor's. Even then, one could argue that Kallor is not at fault for Whiskeyjacks death, the Malazan Commander should not have stepped between the two old powers.

The only one who could cause Whiskeyjacks death is Whiskeyack himself. He decided to step in front of Kallor, even though he knew the old mans intent and his ability. In the end, I believe that Whiskeyjack would not regret his decision.

This post has been edited by Apt: 30 September 2014 - 08:13 PM

[Abyss]

Apt, on 30 September 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

No, no, she did not.

Whiskeyjack was not forced to do anything. He chose to put himself between Kallor and Silverfox. It was a conscious decision to protect one person from another. He did that because of who he is. Silverfox had nothing to do with that. He wouldhave done that for anyone who he felt deserved it.

The blame for Whiskeyjacks death can only be laid at one mans feet and that is Kallor's. Even then, one could argue that Kallor is not at fault for Whiskeyjacks death, the Malazan Commander should not have stepped between the two old powers.

The only one who could cause Whiskeyjacks death is Whiskeyack himself. He decided to step in front of Kallor, even though he knew the old mans intent and his ability. In the end, I believe that Whiskeyjack would not regret his decision.

There's also the argument that Hood, or his cult, was to blame for an old curse dating back to when Fid and WJ rescued Dunsparrow.


It's pretty clear that but for his leg giving out, WJ would have at least injured Kallor badly enough to delay him until another power could step in.

But Silverfox.... totally not her fault. At a minimum, WJ would have stepped into defend Tattersail, same as the two marine sisters before him.

[polishgenius]

The blame for Whiskeyjack's death can only be laid at one person's feet, and that's Mallet.