[Kalse]

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Hmmm.....so are you assuming that I started as 2nd or, if possible, I was promoted?

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hmmm....would being lynched count as dying honorably?

I guess this could be slip-up #3, although seems this sounds more of a low caliber role. But the statements seem so out of place, so I was wondering if this was intentional misguidance...

[Omtose]

Trake, on 23 July 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

I mentioned myself that it was interesting Ryadd was killed by a fellow Rokkaku.
Your mechanic theory sounds pretty sensible to me - which is exactly why I'm suspicious that you're privy to more information than you let on, hard effort or not.

Me putting in hard work makes you want to kill me? Well fuck you too buddeh!

If there had been anything else that was worth digging into today I would have gone at it as well, but honestly, it's just been so quiet, thinking about what's going on has been the only thing of interest all day long apart from galains little breakdown

[Tellan]

Kalse, on 23 July 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Hmmm.....so are you assuming that I started as 2nd or, if possible, I was promoted?

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hmmm....would being lynched count as dying honorably?

I guess this could be slip-up #3, although seems this sounds more of a low caliber role. But the statements seem so out of place, so I was wondering if this was intentional misguidance...

Mostly it was trying to figure out what the hell Galain was talking about. As well as trying to get some information out of him, through speculation of why he thought what he did. we have 2 top roles that were offed Night 1 so it would have told us something else about his role. The second quote was speculation on if he was actually telling the truth about his VCs. Maybe he screwed up on purpose to get himself lynched.

[Trake]

I had the same thought re Galain apparently revealing his VC.

He'd still be my current favourite option for lynching though.

[Omtose]

Kalse, on 23 July 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Hmmm.....so are you assuming that I started as 2nd or, if possible, I was promoted?

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hmmm....would being lynched count as dying honorably?

I guess this could be slip-up #3, although seems this sounds more of a low caliber role. But the statements seem so out of place, so I was wondering if this was intentional misguidance...

Now thats a really interesting find right there.

Promotioning players/seconds. That makes a lot of sense in a game where you can kill your leader. I thought that second on night 1 had just replaced the leader then bam job done, but promotions! Oh shin you glorious bastard thats fucking diabolical.

Kalse that was a fucking good find I think you did just find a slip there.

[Omtose]

That explains why Shin said the game could be short or long! Players choose to kill their own leader for their own personal VCs or leave them alive and go for the faction one!

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the exact reason he introduced personal VCs, to step up the tension.

Does anyone with more experience with mafia know how common personal VCs are?

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 2. 18 hours and 9 minutes of day are left.

11 players are alive:
Anthras, Desra, Fener, Galain, Jalan, Kalse, Omtose, Silchas Ruin, Tellan, Trake, Ultama

6 votes to lynch, 6 to go to night

1 vote Trake: Fener
1 vote Tellan: Galain

Players not voting: Anthras, Desra, Jalan, Kalse, Omtose, Silchas Ruin, Tellan, Trake, Ultama

[Galain]

Kalse, on 23 July 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Hmmm.....so are you assuming that I started as 2nd or, if possible, I was promoted?

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hmmm....would being lynched count as dying honorably?

I guess this could be slip-up #3, although seems this sounds more of a low caliber role. But the statements seem so out of place, so I was wondering if this was intentional misguidance...

Call it a slip, but I meant it as a reveal to give better understanding of mechanics as well as to prove that I have a minor role. As you see, this corroborates my belief that Omtose was not merely speculating.

[Tellan]

Galain, on 23 July 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

I assure you that I am just a peon. One of my vcs is to become second in command and die honorably.

Ok just to clear this up. The promotion idea came from this post. He says TO BECOME 2nd. So if he is telling the truth it is obvious that he would be promoted.

[Omtose]

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Galain, on 23 July 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

I assure you that I am just a peon. One of my vcs is to become second in command and die honorably.

Ok just to clear this up. The promotion idea came from this post. He says TO BECOME 2nd. So if he is telling the truth it is obvious that he would be promoted.

Ahh I didn't notice that, sorry Tellan, but it all the more brings into focus Galain for me now. He evidently has a role that knows a helluva lot for someone so "minor"

[Trake]

Galain, on 23 July 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Kalse, on 23 July 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Hmmm.....so are you assuming that I started as 2nd or, if possible, I was promoted?

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hmmm....would being lynched count as dying honorably?

I guess this could be slip-up #3, although seems this sounds more of a low caliber role. But the statements seem so out of place, so I was wondering if this was intentional misguidance...

Call it a slip, but I meant it as a reveal to give better understanding of mechanics as well as to prove that I have a minor role. As you see, this corroborates my belief that Omtose was not merely speculating.

Uh, is Galain replying here to something which was said about Tellan?

[Ultama]

Omtose, on 23 July 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Galain, on 23 July 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Omtose, on 23 July 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Omtose, on 23 July 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Does anyone else think we should take a closer look at this first scene?

The leader was explicitly killed by his second in command. Given the setup and starting description I don't think this is just "flavour" that was applied to a generic NK. I think it was a scene setup specifically for this scenario. I think what happened to D'rek was kind of like a 1 time vig-slash-overthrow

In my opinion this is incredibly useful information because it tells us that

( A ) second in commands can kill their own leaders under certain circumstances (only some of them if the setup from PS is to be belived)
and
( B ) there was only one "regular" NK last night, so we aren't looking at a 3 day game, or facing multiple NKs per day.

Any thoughts?

Well the question is do the seconds know their leader? Or was that an oops? Are you saying you know who your leader is cause I sure dont know who anyone else in my faction is.

1. I never said seconds know their leaders. I said seconds can KILL their own leaders. It could be an ability that says "replace leader" or some shit, and be as simple as that for them
2. Since that leader got killed on Night 1, im guessing it's a pretty good bet that THAT second knew his leader at the very least. But now that you have me thinking about it, is there any rule or indication that the factions are symmetrical?

Even in the case of the second having day find and night kills those are some LONG odds of finding the leader and NKing them, or NOT finding the leader and NKing someone else who turned out to be the leader. I'm betting pretty heavily on "it wasn't random"

And to directly answer your question, I don't know anyone else in my faction either.

This is awfully specific for role speculation.

Edit: fixed tags for underline

I am not jumping through hoops here.

1. It was night 1, there was no possibility for anyone to perform night actions of any kind before that NK. This normally includes I don't know... EVERYTHING?
2. The leader was killed by his second.

So either

1. The second knew his leader before he killed him
2. The second killed his leader without knowing him
3. The second has a NK and clipped the leader by accident and the scene just poked fun at it (how likely is that, seriously)

And yes, this is awfully specific, because it is the only mechanic that that has even been POSSIBLY shown. We don't even know if it WAS what happened, but I think its worth talking about. Not just talking about me talking about it.

Don't you think that giving someone the reason, means and knowledge to kill their own leader right to begin with would be a bit much? An accidental killing would seem more likely to me.

[Tellan]

Ultama, on 23 July 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Don't you think that giving someone the reason, means and knowledge to kill their own leader right to begin with would be a bit much? An accidental killing would seem more likely to me.

I have to agree to this. Especially since it was only one side that had their leader capped.

[Omtose]

Ultama, on 23 July 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Omtose, on 23 July 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Galain, on 23 July 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Omtose, on 23 July 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Omtose, on 23 July 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Does anyone else think we should take a closer look at this first scene?

The leader was explicitly killed by his second in command. Given the setup and starting description I don't think this is just "flavour" that was applied to a generic NK. I think it was a scene setup specifically for this scenario. I think what happened to D'rek was kind of like a 1 time vig-slash-overthrow

In my opinion this is incredibly useful information because it tells us that

( A ) second in commands can kill their own leaders under certain circumstances (only some of them if the setup from PS is to be belived)
and
( B ) there was only one "regular" NK last night, so we aren't looking at a 3 day game, or facing multiple NKs per day.

Any thoughts?

Well the question is do the seconds know their leader? Or was that an oops? Are you saying you know who your leader is cause I sure dont know who anyone else in my faction is.

1. I never said seconds know their leaders. I said seconds can KILL their own leaders. It could be an ability that says "replace leader" or some shit, and be as simple as that for them
2. Since that leader got killed on Night 1, im guessing it's a pretty good bet that THAT second knew his leader at the very least. But now that you have me thinking about it, is there any rule or indication that the factions are symmetrical?

Even in the case of the second having day find and night kills those are some LONG odds of finding the leader and NKing them, or NOT finding the leader and NKing someone else who turned out to be the leader. I'm betting pretty heavily on "it wasn't random"

And to directly answer your question, I don't know anyone else in my faction either.

This is awfully specific for role speculation.

Edit: fixed tags for underline

I am not jumping through hoops here.

1. It was night 1, there was no possibility for anyone to perform night actions of any kind before that NK. This normally includes I don't know... EVERYTHING?
2. The leader was killed by his second.

So either

1. The second knew his leader before he killed him
2. The second killed his leader without knowing him
3. The second has a NK and clipped the leader by accident and the scene just poked fun at it (how likely is that, seriously)

And yes, this is awfully specific, because it is the only mechanic that that has even been POSSIBLY shown. We don't even know if it WAS what happened, but I think its worth talking about. Not just talking about me talking about it.

Don't you think that giving someone the reason, means and knowledge to kill their own leader right to begin with would be a bit much? An accidental killing would seem more likely to me.

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Ultama, on 23 July 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Don't you think that giving someone the reason, means and knowledge to kill their own leader right to begin with would be a bit much? An accidental killing would seem more likely to me.

I have to agree to this. Especially since it was only one side that had their leader capped.

It's right there in the post you quoted.

"And yes, this is awfully specific, because it is the only mechanic that that has even been POSSIBLY shown. We don't even know if it WAS what happened, but I think its worth talking about. Not just talking about me talking about it."

I think shin probably gave specific people victory conditions for faction and personal that conflict with each other. Maybe 1 second took the personal VC right away and the other(s?) chose to wait. Maybe only certain seconds can do it as I previous suggested.

Not claiming to have the answers here, but guessing was something fun to do while the thread was a ghost town. People are getting hung up on 1 or 2 suggestions they like each, but I had a lot of ideas earlier on and put almost all of them on thread to be discussed.

[Kalse]

But if there is a promotion mechanism as Tellan proposed, doesn't that mean there will always be a faction leader until no one remains?

[Omtose]

Kalse, on 23 July 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

But if there is a promotion mechanism as Tellan proposed, doesn't that mean there will always be a faction leader until no one remains?

Galain proposed it first, by stating that his personal VC is to get promoted then die

[Kalse]

Galain, on 23 July 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Kalse, on 23 July 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Hmmm.....so are you assuming that I started as 2nd or, if possible, I was promoted?

Tellan, on 23 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hmmm....would being lynched count as dying honorably?

I guess this could be slip-up #3, although seems this sounds more of a low caliber role. But the statements seem so out of place, so I was wondering if this was intentional misguidance...

Call it a slip, but I meant it as a reveal to give better understanding of mechanics as well as to prove that I have a minor role. As you see, this corroborates my belief that Omtose was not merely speculating.

Why are you replying as if this was addressed to you?

[Kalse]

Omtose, on 23 July 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

Kalse, on 23 July 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

But if there is a promotion mechanism as Tellan proposed, doesn't that mean there will always be a faction leader until no one remains?

Galain proposed it first, by stating that his personal VC is to get promoted then die

Unfortunate VC.

[Kalse]

So let's say that Galain does indeed have that VC (which would assume a lower rank than Second right? He would have said succession if he meant killing off his leader). That means we have some factions with at least 3 players, correct? If we assume that every faction is even, that means either 3 factions with 4 people and an unknown role or 4 factions with 3 known roles.

OR

it could be some mismash that leaves openings for additional independent roles.

And if this is the dynamic, it is interesting in that we have one person climbing a ladder, another person trying to kill their own leader, and a leader trying to keep it all together.

[Kalse]

Galain, on 23 July 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

vote tellan
I believe you are a second, and if you are my team's second, you are too stupid to keep.

And this vote would make sense for a ladder climber.