[Cause]

So living in South Africa racisms is still a very charged issue and the example I will raise is local but I see the problem all over the world and not just between white and black, I see it with all races and religions and institutions.

To me racism is quite a clear concept. It's the belief that one race is inherently superior to the other,or it can become the enforcement of that idea.

I have caught myself in my life after experiencing a near fatal collision thinking 'that fucking black taxi driver'. Yet I don't think I am a racist. I know absolutely in my heart that my white skin or someone else's black skin does not matter as to the person we become, it's a question of wealth, of upbringing and a myriad of other factors. The Taxi driver in question was a fuck, in trying to shave a minute of his commute time he drove on the wrong side of the rode, cut me off and quite literally nearly caused me to have a serious accident. His behaviour was not because he is black, its because his pay scheme and poor road law enforcement incentive him to engage in such risky and selfish driving. Unfortunately because every taxi driver in my country is black, and are almost universally seen in a negative light, it creates an unfortunate association in the mind and births a stereotype. As I have said I don't think that moment in my life makes me a racist, maybe you think different?

Similarly when I tell you the average black student at my university is not the equal of their white counterpart I don't think it is racist. Its a fact and you cant have an opinion on a fact. Again though I don't think they are 'stupid' because of skin colour. Education is failing the poor in my country and on average the black student is poorer than the white student. To ignore it for fear of being politically incorrect hinders rather than helps the problem.

The reason I bring this up today is because currently this ad is making waves in my country:
It shows a white women feeding a black child who is acting like a dog and ends with the tag line: The average domestic pet is fed better than million of children in our country. Is the Ad racist? Is it in poor tatse? Or is it carrying a legitimate message in the form of a shock to help carry it across? Just today on Facebook I saw a plea by an acquaintance to donate money to a needy cat sanctuary. They need R500 a day to feed 300 cats. I often tell people I don't believe in supporting the SPCA when people are starving and this add I think carries the same message. At no point do I believe the Ad intends to portray or ever does portray the black child as being sub-human or a dog. The great irony is a few months ago my countries black president said that Africans should not embrace european ways and that whites love their dogs more than they do the poor. That statement also caused an uproar and in the opposite direction to this add.

I think so many people have become so on guard for the detection of racism that they have lost truth of what it really is. Refusing to serve black customers is racist. Saying black people can never be as smart as white people is racist. Believing black people should be slaves is racist. When a white person insults a black person sometimes its no different to when a white person insults another white person and yet when I see the way people, the media or my government sometimes response too the latter you would never think so.

[Gothos]

In my country it mostly revolves around something that should more likely be called chauvinism or severe nationalism - target groups being Jews, Russians and Germans, mostly. It's not about anyone being inferior, but about these nations being out to gut and enslave us, take all our money, our homes and our lands by manipulation and bullying, and that we should oppose them openly. In more conservative circles (like the older generations, and traditional families - like, unfortunately, my girlfriend's, which leads to some fights and/or heated discussions between us) calling someone a Jew is taken/meant as implying someone is dishonest, greedy and exploits people for personal gain. Even if you're not one of those, the general population also reacts to someone being called a Jew as an insult, even if they themselves don't see Jews by any general characteristic - it's instinctive.

Something I've learned from conversations with my gf was that all it takes is just one interaction with someone of another culture and you can become prejudiced. In her grandmother's instance this was in a gulag out in Siberia, where a jewish doctor would flat out refuse to treat or aid in any way polish patients and exclusively help other Jews. This one person has set her against the whole nationality and nothing could dislodge this worldview until she died decades later, as well as instilled it in her daughter and granddaughter to some extent. This spreads like wildfire without proper education.

To some extent, you could say my compatriots are experiencing the "being considered subhuman" part when working abroad when they run into the wrong people. Based on nationality and not race, the mechanism is, I think, similar.

[Macros]

Bigotry in all its forms is alive and disappointingly well the world over

[Cause]

Macros, on 09 July 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

Bigotry in all its forms is alive and disappointingly well the world over

I won't disagree with that assertion.

Still that was not the point I was trying to raise. Do you ever feel that many innocent remarks are misinterpreted as racism or sexism etc when you feel they are clearly not?

Is the video I show above racist? I don't think so.

Many times people in my country are accused of playing the race card to cast honest criticism as misplaced racist attacks as an example. I am forced to conclude that is too often the truth. Recently my countries black Agriculture minister was found to be drastically and illegally underpaying his shepherd by half. The Agricultural minister! If a white MP was found to have done the same I can't imagine the uproar. As it is when the matter was raised by the media and the opposition tried to roast him they were told to stop being racist and told that he had since corrected the issue. This is a perfect example of what I speak. The problem would have been amplified if he was white, was ignored because he was black and in truth the only thing that matters was the man who sets the law, an MP of the state, broke the law and should have been punished by the law.

[Abyss]

Yep.


The only difference is that 'now' a larger chunk of the world is in a position to see it for what it is, and confront it.

There will always be people ready to use The Other as a convenient scapegoat and target, but the more connected and smaller the world becomes, the harder it is for that sort of message to spread its tentacles without resistance. Shockingly, social media IS good for something.

That will make a difference in a hundred years or so when most of the die-hards are dead and we're down to those making an active choice to be racist as opposed to those who have the 'raised that way don't know any better' excuse.

But throw in another hundred years for places like China, that has more people living in caves than Canada has people, or Russia where any message that doesn't agree with the majority is obviously subversive propaganda, or large chunks of Africa where eating just narrowly nudges out hating the next tribe over as a daily priority... etc...

[tiam]

The black taxi driver example mentioned by Cause above is similar to those ridiculous statistics you see on the internet, in terms of the black prison population in America. So if you removed all blacks from America there would be a 70% drop in crime in some areas and a 60& drop in prison population etc. Its taking skin colour as a cause of something like with the taxi drivers. As Cause rightly states it has to do with a number of factors especially with crime, low employment rates in mainly black areas for example.

Yet to think of someone as black is kind of racist isnt it? I see what your saying that if I was white and you were black and I called you a bastard because you cut me off thats not racist. But to think of someone as a black bastard is judging them on their skin colour isnt it? Im not accusing you of anything btw Cause.

As Gothos said its different in different places. Here in the UK its immigrants who are getting the brunt of the discrimination and is quite a hot topic with an election coming up. A fairly right wing party with, lets say strong, views on immigrants is making significant headway and might do very well at the next general election which is worrying. In this particular case its as Abyss has said a blaming of the Other.

[amphibian]

tiam, on 09 July 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

The black taxi driver example mentioned by Cause above is similar to those ridiculous statistics you see on the internet, in terms of the black prison population in America. So if you removed all blacks from America there would be a 70% drop in crime in some areas and a 60& drop in prison population etc. Its taking skin colour as a cause of something like with the taxi drivers. As Cause rightly states it has to do with a number of factors especially with crime, low employment rates in mainly black areas for example.

The crime thing is a very complicated issue though. The very nature of upper/middle/lower class in American society has been shaped by racist policies like slavery, Jim Crow laws, redlining, selective law enforcement mostly having to do with drugs and so on.

So there's this giant group of black Americans/immigrants that have been obviously and not so obviously kept poor and kept from political or personal success by an oppressive government and financial institutions. It's getting better for them and others, but by no means is that two hundred fifty plus years of purposeful disadvantage anywhere close to being addressed or fixed. Or even apologized for.

The same or similar things happened to the First Nations people, is happening to Latino immigrants and has happened to other groups around the world in varying degrees. A truncated and less severe version of this happened for a short time to later European immigrants and so on, but that doesn't mean white privilege doesn't exist.

The way to start addressing and fixing these issues is to confront these realities, even though you or I personally may have had nothing to do with them and would not want them to be there, and start helping those around us. We can't change a country by ourselves, but we can help a couple families or kids be better. That adds up.

[stone monkey]

Speaking as a black person living in a predominantly white country, I can pretty vehemently answer the original question with a "No".

[D'rek]

If you stick solely to a definition of 'racism' as believing that one race is naturally superior to another, then I would say yes, there are some places where members of certain races are still discriminated against, but not because of racism by that definition. (There are also places where racism is still believed, by that definition, too.)

However, I think the way the word is used nowadays commonly includes any kind of discrimination against someone that is based upon their ethnicity, regardless of whether that ethnic discrimination is rooted in believing one race is superior or not.



edit:

Oxford still sticks to the one definition:

Quote

noun
[mass noun]
1 The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races: theories of racism

1.1 Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior: a programme to combat racism

While Merriam-Webster has both now:

Quote

rac·ism
noun \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\

: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race

: the belief that some races of people are better than others
Full Definition of RACISM
1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
: racial prejudice or discrimination
— rac·ist noun or adjective

This post has been edited by D'rek: 09 July 2014 - 08:53 PM

[Cause]

tiam, on 09 July 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

The black taxi driver example mentioned by Cause above is similar to those ridiculous statistics you see on the internet, in terms of the black prison population in America. So if you removed all blacks from America there would be a 70% drop in crime in some areas and a 60& drop in prison population etc. Its taking skin colour as a cause of something like with the taxi drivers. As Cause rightly states it has to do with a number of factors especially with crime, low employment rates in mainly black areas for example.Yet to think of someone as black is kind of racist isnt it? I see what your saying that if I was white and you were black and I called you a bastard because you cut me off thats not racist. But to think of someone as a black bastard is judging them on their skin colour isnt it? Im not accusing you of anything btw Cause.As Gothos said its different in different places. Here in the UK its immigrants who are getting the brunt of the discrimination and is quite a hot topic with an election coming up. A fairly right wing party with, lets say strong, views on immigrants is making significant headway and might do very well at the next general election which is worrying. In this particular case its as Abyss has said a blaming of the Other.

No I was even calling myself on it. As I say I know that the driver being black has nothing to do with the situation and yet I will admit my thought was at that moment 'fucking black taxi driver'. The black part is as you say completely unnecessary. I would only try to excuse it by saying that the idea that every taxi driver is black in my country is firmly entrenched in my mind and I believe that the human mind really does work in stereotypes. I would still claim that this moment would not be enough to classify me as a racist only in that moment as imperfect. I am in fact quite literally colour blind but I would argue that the idea that humanity will ever reach a point where you don't notice the colour of another's skin is beyond idealistic. Rather we can only reach a point that in noticing it we also are aware that beyond the cosmetic it means very little.

I never meant to imply that racism is not happening today, white privilege is not a thing and certainly not that it is not worth fighting. I do however think many innocent situations are at best categorized as racist when they are not or worse are callously manipulated to suit peoples agendas.

stone monkey, on 09 July 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Speaking as a black person living in a predominantly white country, I can pretty vehemently answer the original question with a "No".

Stone Monkey I would actually love a more in depth reply from you, your thoughts are always worth reading and I am certain you know that the question was rhetorical and hoping for far more than a simple yes or no answer. I think I have given several real world examples of when racism is being misapplied (the video, though my opinion of course) or callously manipulated (the case of my countries agricultural MP, his name is SENZENI ZOKWANA if anyone cares to read up on the situation themselves).

Otherwise again looking only at my own country in the past few recent months I can think of several more examples.

This cartoon mocking my president was posted on Twitter and created a shit storm, it was attributed to a white political cartoonist in my country. The cartoonist was called racist for drawing it

in reality this is the real cartoon he drew several years ago without causing a stir.

How can the same criticism become racists simply because suddenly the players and black and white?

Another government official in my country the national chairwoman of provinces (Even I don't know what this job means)Thandi Modise now faces charges of animal cruelty. On a farm she owns, their was no food or water for her animals for a period of roughly of 2 wreaks which led to scores of cattle dying and as the media loves to mention in particular the surviving 80 or so pigs remaining had nothing to eat except the 50 or so other pigs that had already died. Her response was that she is still learning "But if you are a woman and you are learning you are not allowed to make mistakes." It has also since somehow become a race issue.

An article in my university paper that seemed to think it was significant (and implying deep seated racism) that white people sat with white people in lecture theatres, black with black and Indian with Indian etc. I would argue that friendship most often forms from common interest and in a country in which Skin colour is still a fairly good indication of wealth bracket, culture, religion etc its really not at all surprising. Again as a personal anecdote when my lab mates or I organize group events the attendance of my black colleagues is often problematic, often they rely on others for transport and in one instance we realized to late that some made excuses not attend because they felt the event was too expensive. For me and also for many of my black colleagues the price was a negligible amount not even worth considering, for them it was beyond their means. The event was bowling. Otherwise we once realized, also almost too late, that we had to move one event so our Muslim colleague would not be attending a lunch during Ramadan. The matter is not as clear cut as the colour of our skins and can't be treated as such.

I think discussion on the matter is warranted. I hope you don't think less of me for asking the question but your terse response implies to me that you have strong personal feelings on the matter but also dismisses it

D, on 09 July 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2: racial prejudice or discrimination

I would say the second example never happens without the former being the root cause.

This post has been edited by Cause: 09 July 2014 - 09:46 PM

[Brujah]

The only racism that comes to mind springs from the fact that I delivered pizzas in college and my wife waited tables. From my personal experience, 9 out of 10 white people tip, and 1 out of 10 black folk did. Oddly, my wife noticed the exact same rate. So every time I went to a door I use to hate seeing black customers, and my wife feels the same way when seating her tables. When you're working for tips, this type of constant reinforcement defintely made me have negative thoughts. For the record its customary to tip here in both instances. Both jobs even pay less than minimum wage because the tip is almost guaranteed. So like Cause said, its not an opinion but a fact that a certain race felt extremely less inclined to do the right thing, over and over again.

But that's about the extent of any personal racism. As far as racism in general, I think we're all surrounded by it.

[Studlock]

No, but do think many people try to manipulate racism to suit their own needs (most of them white people in the Western Hemisphere to quiet honest). There is a scientific definition of what racism is and what it looks like but many people ignore that definition to fall back on the dictionary definition as if both should be weighted equally (quicktip: they shouldn't, obviously). I will not speak for Black or Coloured South Africans because I am not from there but if it's anything like Canada, and I suspect it is having: settlers, native populations, and a history of both violence and oppressing between the two groups, racism is very, very healthy.

For instance that video, is in fact racist. It dehumanizes a black child, shows them to be both subservient and reliant on a white person...to make a point that white people have more food to feed their pets then black people have to feed themselves. That point hadn't need to show as such, and I argued, that looking at like bar, has completely failed at it's objective. That you think your 'colour-blind' (though you might literally be colour-blind) is often to me, a warning sign. The only people that can afford to be colour-blind are those who have the privilege to be so.

But I do agree with you it's a much more complex issue than just race (which of course is again being studied, look up the concept intersectionality at your uni) and I do believe it deserves to be discussed, I just happen to disagree with you on many parts of that discussion.

Edit: funny when I was a serve old white people where the absolute worst tippers and young people (of all races) where the best. Must have been ageism.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 10 July 2014 - 02:59 AM

[Brujah]

No, old white people suck too. But young non whites were just as bad.

Plus mine isn't just a white perspective. My wife isn't white. Neither are both my parents. Only one.

Just for the record.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 10 July 2014 - 03:32 AM

[Studlock]

Just pointing out the silliness of calling that 'racism'. Is there a large systematic reason young black kids don't tip? Is it because they hate you on a large scale? Is it because if they don't tip you they contribute to a system that in turns benefits young blacks on a whole? Is there a violent and oppressive history of young blacks not tipping you?

As I said there's a scientific definition of racism and I kind of wished discussion would stick to it. Individual experiences matter but there not the only thing that matters because at the end of the day if individual prejudices don't add up to something that influences entire populations there no worse than people being assholes, which sucks, but short of outlawing assholes, theirs not much to do about.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

tiam, on 09 July 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

As Gothos said its different in different places. Here in the UK its immigrants who are getting the brunt of the discrimination and is quite a hot topic with an election coming up. A fairly right wing party with, lets say strong, views on immigrants is making significant headway and might do very well at the next general election which is worrying. In this particular case its as Abyss has said a blaming of the Other.

What makes me laugh about the immigrant thing (because its rediculous and ironic, not because its actually funny) is that all the immigrants, legal or otherwise, are the ones targeted, when really its a product of our own immagration laws, or lack thereof. We pretty much just let any fucker into the country and give them all the benefits they have neither earned nor deserve. And trying to get illegal immigrants out of the damn country is pretty much impossible. But its the illegal immigrants causing the problem, along with the lazy alcoholic tossers (British or otherwise might I add, being a lazy, good-for-nothing waster is universal) walking the street at 7am with cans of stella leaching off of the hard working joes of the country. Without immigrants, I very much doubt we would have many doctors or dentists for example. My dentist at a private dentist is an Indian chap, and hes amazing at his job, and I am thankful for him. The shuttering of peoples eyes when it comes to people seeing immigrants as problems is the big problem. Our laws and justice system need to stop pandering to the EU and actually deport people who don't belong. If we weren't spending millions of people that shouldn't be here, that money could be better used in all the right places and the whole country would literally be better off.

I know that this post is about racism generally, and whether or not it is prevalent etc, I just wanted to expand on the immigrant part that Tiam mentioned. And the fact that its a hot cause of racism that could easily be recitified but our governmental system is pretty inadequate IMO. Countries need to be more like Australia, if you are of no use to them, you are not getting in! Easy, job done. Welcome to join them, but only as a useful human being, (because thats what we all are afterall) with something to add to the population as a whole. Don't just rock up to leech as much money off of the country as possible and do as little as possible. That is how the bad reputations begin and cause strife.

Also I speak pretty broadly and pretty bluntly, so I apologise if I term anything in a way that offends in advance! I just speak my mind and call a spade a spade!

[Studlock]

Well it's to good to see we still categorize people as 'useful' and 'not useful'.

What about paraplegics? Or poor people? Or people with mental illness? Or people with addictions? Should we just ship them 'away' (to here by the way? There homeland or simply just 'not here'?). Refugees? Define useful please? Because for me being a human should be as useful as one should be. Honestly can't believe people like you enjoy the Malazan series when the underlining theme is compassion, especially for those you so denounce as 'useless'. This kind of shit is barbaric and belongs in the empty empire where it came from. You're line of thing is hilarious see as Britain was one of the biggest 'immigration powers' the world has ever seen. Seems someone can't deal with the bed their forefathers had made for them. Sorry, calling a spade a spade.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

Studlock, on 10 July 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Well it's to good to see we still categorize people as 'useful' and 'not useful'.

What about paraplegics? Or poor people? Or people with mental illness? Or people with addictions? Should we just ship them 'away' (to here by the way? There homeland or simply just 'not here'?). Refugees? Define useful please? Because for me being a human should be as useful as one should be. Honestly can't believe people like you enjoy the Malazan series when the underlining theme is compassion, especially for those you so denounce as 'useless'. This kind of shit is barbaric and belongs in the empty empire where it came from. You're line of thing is hilarious see as Britain was one of the biggest 'immigration powers' the world has ever seen. Seems someone can't deal with the bed their forefathers had made for them. Sorry, calling a spade a spade.

Thats fine, a spade is a spade afterall.

I talk about the people that literally do fuck all, anybody that simply exists, anybody that has no job, no intention of finding a job and just exists to cause problems. Drinking yourself into a stupour is not a living and it certainly isn't useful to anybody. I think if you don't add anything to society or to the community then no, you aren't useful. I never mentioned any specific category of person, aka ill, poor, disabled etc. If you have a 'useful' skill like engineer, teacher, nurse, you are and should be welcomed by anybody, anywhere yes. And I never said anything about 'shipping away' people. If they are illegal immigrants they should absolutely be sent back to their home country. Refugees is another issue, but just flat out leaving them to disperse into the country and losing track of them, as we do, is just shocking. If you think everyone should live in a world of sunshine and lollipops you don't understand the real world, and I don't understand how somebody like you can enjoy the Malazan books, when they highlight just how unfair life can be. What you call barbaric I call being a realist, your right to disagree of course. And I never said that I agreed or disagreed with anything done in the past either, but lets not start a history lesson. If we shipped off hundreds of thousands of stella drinking idiots to all over the world, I would be the first to apologize for Britain, but that isn't the issue here. Sounds like you are upset with how things were done in the past?

And for the record, I am not trying to derail the thread from its original topic, I just think that if you can work for a living you should. Any country should be happy to accept somebody that does so too. That sums up everything I have tried to say, but may have said inadequately.

This post has been edited by Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai: 10 July 2014 - 10:17 AM

[Cause]

Studlock, on 10 July 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

No, but do think many people try to manipulate racism to suit their own needs (most of them white people in the Western Hemisphere to quiet honest). There is a scientific definition of what racism is and what it looks like but many people ignore that definition to fall back on the dictionary definition as if both should be weighted equally (quicktip: they shouldn't, obviously). I will not speak for Black or Coloured South Africans because I am not from there but if it's anything like Canada, and I suspect it is having: settlers, native populations, and a history of both violence and oppressing between the two groups, racism is very, very healthy.

Please clarify what you mean by the Scientific definition vs the dictionary definition. I don't think I understand what you mean.

Quote

For instance that video, is in fact racist. It dehumanizes a black child, shows them to be both subservient and reliant on a white person...to make a point that white people have more food to feed their pets then black people have to feed themselves. That point hadn't need to show as such, and I argued, that looking at like bar, has completely failed at it's objective.

Its not that I fail to see how that point of view can be seen in the add and yet I still don't think that comes across as the adds intent. Also I think the point of the add actually is that white people in my country do have the money, and indeed do spend more money on feeding their pets then some black children receive for their own food. The poor are poor and the wealthy are wealthy, the legacy of apartheid means the poor are black and the white are wealthy. There are certainly exceptions to this very broad generalization and again I don't think the add means to imply black people are reliant on white people to be fed. Only that their is a crisis of the poor and hungry in my country and maybe the wealthy can cutback on a luxury and give more to the poor. I would not be insulted if the add switched the races around but I do think it would lose a lot of impact by being so obviously disingenuous as to the facts as they are on the ground.

The add can also be seen in the context that my countries own president recently vilified white people with they statement they care more about their pets than they do about black people.

Quote

That you think your 'colour-blind' (though you might literally be colour-blind) is often to me, a warning sign. The only people that can afford to be colour-blind are those who have the privilege to be so.

I was making a joke, I am quite literally colour blind but my point was and I think if you read it again quite clear that I am in fact not colour-blind when it comes to race. I don't think its possible for you not to notice that another person is black, white or Indian if they are. I don't think you can't notice that a highly observant orthodox Jew is Jewish if he wears a Yamulke, tzittzit and other trappings of his faith. The best we can achieve is that in noticing these things we realize that they don't matter.

I admit to have had racist thoughts in my life, I don't think I am a racist. I also would challenge most people to claim they themselves have never. I gave the rather clear example of the taxi incident as one such thought. I will also admit (I'm trying to be honest not offensive) that if I was given a choice between say marking ten essays written by white science students that I teach or ten essays by black students that I teach, I would choose the former. It's a statistical certainty that the former would require less work on my part. I would in this circumstance be discriminating based on racial lines but in reality what I'm discriminating against is marking science essays written in English that are written by privately educated native English speakers or government educated 2nd or 3rd language English speakers. Only the deluded could not fail to notice a difference. Of course in both groups there will be exceptions but there is as I say without doubt statistical valid certainty as to which will be easier to mark. Its for this reason why I understand that this situation can not occur. I also believe that in time the difference will fall away, apartheid ended only 20 years ago. The difference between a privately educated white student and black student I have no doubt is negligible. In stating this truth I don't believe I am racist, truth is truth. In ignoring it we also ignore any option to correct it. Education in my country needs to be fixed, and not at the university level but at the Kindergarten and all the way up level. You can't build the roof if you never put down the foundation.


Edit-I just want to add that I see the dangers in my words. I have heard Klu Klux Klansmen speak about their perceived 'very real differences' between the races as justification for their belief of the division between the races or to justify their hate. I don't think there are real differences. The ones I see are the result of a wealth gap or class division that has everything to do with the legacy of apartheid and nothing to do with any inherent racial characteristics.

This post has been edited by Cause: 10 July 2014 - 12:05 PM

[Brujah]

My wife was watching that Kardashian reality show yesterday, and Kim and mom went to Vienna for a presidential ball. While there, some man was wearing blackface and dressed like a pimp, and said he was there to escort Kim to the ball. Which she ignored, and was pissed. Then later, after the president of Austria had entered, they started interviews, etc.... One interview for a local tv channel had Kim and some Austrian tv guy, and they asked them if they were going to dance. Kim said no, and the other guy said "soon as they play 'Niggers in Vienna.'"

Later she described an event on the airlines in Vienna, where she was in first class, and a woman was saying loudly that her baby was black, and that she slept with a black guy, etc.

I usually don't pay attention to that horrible show, but I was extremely surprised at the blatant racism. I was wondering if racism towards blacks in specific was worse in places like Vienna, or just a fluke.

[Studlock]

Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai, on 10 July 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Studlock, on 10 July 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Well it's to good to see we still categorize people as 'useful' and 'not useful'.

What about paraplegics? Or poor people? Or people with mental illness? Or people with addictions? Should we just ship them 'away' (to here by the way? There homeland or simply just 'not here'?). Refugees? Define useful please? Because for me being a human should be as useful as one should be. Honestly can't believe people like you enjoy the Malazan series when the underlining theme is compassion, especially for those you so denounce as 'useless'. This kind of shit is barbaric and belongs in the empty empire where it came from. You're line of thing is hilarious see as Britain was one of the biggest 'immigration powers' the world has ever seen. Seems someone can't deal with the bed their forefathers had made for them. Sorry, calling a spade a spade.

Thats fine, a spade is a spade afterall.

I talk about the people that literally do fuck all, anybody that simply exists, anybody that has no job, no intention of finding a job and just exists to cause problems. Drinking yourself into a stupour is not a living and it certainly isn't useful to anybody. I think if you don't add anything to society or to the community then no, you aren't useful. I never mentioned any specific category of person, aka ill, poor, disabled etc. If you have a 'useful' skill like engineer, teacher, nurse, you are and should be welcomed by anybody, anywhere yes. And I never said anything about 'shipping away' people. If they are illegal immigrants they should absolutely be sent back to their home country. Refugees is another issue, but just flat out leaving them to disperse into the country and losing track of them, as we do, is just shocking. If you think everyone should live in a world of sunshine and lollipops you don't understand the real world, and I don't understand how somebody like you can enjoy the Malazan books, when they highlight just how unfair life can be. What you call barbaric I call being a realist, your right to disagree of course. And I never said that I agreed or disagreed with anything done in the past either, but lets not start a history lesson. If we shipped off hundreds of thousands of stella drinking idiots to all over the world, I would be the first to apologize for Britain, but that isn't the issue here. Sounds like you are upset with how things were done in the past?

And for the record, I am not trying to derail the thread from its original topic, I just think that if you can work for a living you should. Any country should be happy to accept somebody that does so too. That sums up everything I have tried to say, but may have said inadequately.

The good old 'realist' argument, mostly made by people who have been privileged to have a realist pov, in which they themselves never actually have to go through any of the shit they denounce. Should we send those away who are rich and don`t work or do they get pass? What about those who are top executives who do shit all but make gross amount money? But of course, their money is useful so we'll keep them. Those brown immigrants who drink themselves stupid though, fuck those guys, a leech on society. Fuck our common humanity, they need to useful or their very being as a fellow living creature is moot.

Good old realism, still manufacturing sociopaths after all these years.