[Cause]

Studlock, on 14 July 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Your complaining about a non-existent problem as if it's an equal problem to actual racism. If you can provide me with statistical proof that white are discriminated in anyway to the benefit of people of colour I'll gladly agree with you but I highly doubt you'll find any such stat.

There is a freeze on hiring white pilots. It discriminates against white people and it purpose is to aid black people. You can't just ignore any argument that disagrees with you. True the average white person is still better off than the average black person in my country. I won't/can't deny that. You can't compare the earnings of people with university degrees to people who never passed high school. Again I know full well they never got educated because of Apartheid at the end of the day though companies pay salaries according to skill. If you want to know the real crime its that its been 20 years since apartheid ended. That means a women fell pregnant after two years, her child grew up over the next six and started school 8 years after apartheid ended. He was educated in a free and democratic South Africa for 12 years after that and will be lucky if he made it to Matric (I don't have the statistics at hand but the drop out rate is embarrassing), if he did make it to Matric the highest pass rate percentage he can expect is around 78% (if he is lucky enough to study in Gauteng or cape town) even though a passing grade is 33% on his tests. You can be legally required to hire someone as a Dr, lawyer or sales assistant. It won't mean they suddenly have the requisite skills. Still such a child only started school 8 years after apartheid ended! Well last year an entire province of my country (1/9th of the country) went without text books for approx 8 months. You would expect the minister of education to resign or be fired, not here. As I said its easier to garner votes by promising jobs in the short term than it is to tackle the real problems over many years. Did you know the teachers strike every year just before exams to demand higher wages? My current minister of education when she lead the teachers union once promised to harm students if their demands were not meant? Government tried to make teaching an essential service (illegal to strike) but the resistance was too high. Did you know that when government wanted to put in a system to monitor teachers attendance (you know that they actually do their jobs) they striked? Which do you think is more detrimental to black people today? Apartheid from 20 years ago or an education system as bad if not worse than what they had under apartheid today?

Would it surprise you to know that often its black people who point out the injustices of affirmative action and Black economic empowerment? The quotas for entrance into medical school favour black students, but a system meant to empower the disadvantaged really helps most those black children who can afford private education. They have the advantage of having the best marks and also being black. My university wants to change the system so that rather than automatically classifying anyone whose black as disadvantaged it works on money, and also favours students from rural areas. Your more likely to find the same black executive sit on 20 boards then the intended effect of having 20 black people promoted to an executive position.

Its not just racism when it crosses some threshold of degree, its not only theft when the person stolen for actually feels the loss.

To be clear I don't think white people have it as bad in SA today as black people had in South Africa, still as things stand discrimination is discrimination and how far must we swing the pendulum beofre we need to swing it back? Or before South Africa becomes Zimbabwe.

In any case an argument about affirmative action is complex and off topic. Instead the perfect example of what I wished to discuss is the comic I posted one page back. How can a (white) cartoonist be called racist for saying my (black) presidents head is up his ass (he never said this) but it was not racist only insightful and funny when he in fact said (white) presidents bush's head is up his ass.

Also I may be white but I'm also Jewish. If you want to go tit for tat and tally the racist scorecard we can; Ill match you genocide for genocide, ghetto for ghetto, pogrom for pogrom and intolerance for intolerance. Seriously no body wins in such games. Suffering is suffering.

Oh and because the point is too easy to score. If you want a case of black people contributing to a prejudiced system that systematically attacks people. Lets look at black Africans and Gay people. Ill mention Uganda, but I will also mention that my president does not feel its his place to interfere in Ugandan sovereignty and tell them what they are doing is wrong. The ANC asked the world to pressure SA that apartheid was wrong but Uganda is within its rights to oppress Gay people. He also has no problem telling Israel off either. If you want to know the difference its because he himself has stated that in his youth if a gay person dared to stand before him he would beat him. My countries constitution was once attacked as well for giving gay people equal rights, I think the move was championed by the 'traditional leaders' of my country. If you are gay I also strongly suggest you not tell anyone in the Sudan, Mauritania, Nigeria, Tanzania or Sierra Leone. Ill leave out the Arab countries to stay brief.

This post has been edited by Cause: 14 July 2014 - 12:03 PM

[Tsundoku]

Studlock, on 14 July 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Wah wah wah woe is me everything is the white man's fault ...

If you can provide me with statistical proof that white are discriminated in anyway to the benefit of people of colour I'll gladly agree with you but I highly doubt you'll find any such stat.

1. Come to Australia
2. Tick the "Yes" box for "Do you identify as Australian Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander"
3. Profit!

Quote

Let me ask has your, or anyone else you know, life been side-line because people literally refused to employ them because of their skin colour?

Yes. They weren't aboriginal, or identified as such, and as such were ineligible for the position, or scholarship. Happens quite a lot here actually. I went to Uni with a few people who benefited from that, even though they originally kept it quiet because they were whiter than me. And I'm very white. You can get away with a lot if you choose to use the term "identify". One-fucking-64th does not an ethnicity make.

Quote

Because that shit happens daily on reserve. Have you been pulled over because of your skin colour?

Nope. Only for speeding, or a breath test (never a problem).

Quote

It happens at least once a month to me.

Then I suggest you move somewhere a bit more progressive. I hear Canada is full of such places..

Quote

Have you had the cops called on you while playing basketball in a 'white neighborhood' because you might be 'dangerous'? I have.

Ugh, basketball. I'm so white I can't jump for shit.

Quote

Have people called you slurs as you walk down the street simply because you fucking exist?

Yep, pretty much any town in Australia with an aboriginal population, and I have lived in quite a few. Been assaulted a few times too, but once I started to fight back they generally left me alone unless they were hunting in packs of more than 4. Learned to run pretty fast that way.

Quote

My grandparents lived through that. Have you experienced any of that?

See above.

Quote

If the answer is no then shut the fuck up with your reverse racism bullshit.

How about you shut the fuck up with your self-pity white-bashing? You've experienced racism, and that's straight out shit. Doesn't justify doing it to others and passing it off as anything but racism. It's the same logic as multigenerational child abuse "It was done to me so I'll pass it on ...".

Apparently once upon a time 2 wrongs didn't make a right, although the way you talk, I guess that may have changed.

You want the moral high ground? Be better than that.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 14 July 2014 - 12:22 PM

[QuickTidal]

Studlock, on 14 July 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

If you can provide me with statistical proof that white are discriminated in anyway to the benefit of people of colour I'll gladly agree with you but I highly doubt you'll find any such stat.

Not to the benefit mind you but, due to things like this occurring and growing since 1988 living in a northern town as a white person can be about as dangerous as it gets after a certain hour of the day. Having known family who have lived in northern Manitoba in recent years, going outside after 8PM is basically an invitation for harassment. The police actively warn the residents to NOT go outside after 8PM in fact.

That's not living, that's a state of fear.

I mention this because as long as someone is of aboriginal background when they go out, they don't have to belong to the aforementioned gang but will still be left alone (because they are native)...the same is not true if they are white apparently.

The root of this problem lies in the Canadian gov't dropping the ball in the sectors of education and activities and such for youths on reserves, and that's a huge issue and the real reason behind this growth in street gangs...but the idea that the violence and racism associated with them hasn't been subsequently turned on basically anyone who is not native across northern Canada is not really a point that can stand any longer.

Yes, the Canadian gov't needs to deal with the root of the problem...but in the meantime having to live in fear of dominating gang entities in northern places because of the colour of ones skin is not something that I feel should be overlooked either.

So while I wholly agree with your points about the Gov't needing to deal with the root issues (A large portion of this is because a moron like Harper runs the country and does dumbass shit like this) and racism against aboriginals is still a very big and present issue, I think you may have let anger override what is clearly a growing backlash against a white population solely because their skin colour is the same as those idiots in power.

I personally don't have to suffer anything like what I'm sure you have in your life (though as a teen in Highschool the neo-nazi assholes who attended my school threatened my life because they learned I have Japanese heritage and I was dating a girl who they knew) so I can't at all understand it on the level I'm sure you do. My post isn't to rile you, but to say that yes there is a quotient of racism leveled at white people in Canada from a sector of natives...it's not at all on the same scale mind you...I get that...but that doesn't mean we should sweep it under the rug as not happening. When a family member who lived in a northern town feared for his life as he walked to his car after work because people were being roundly beaten to a pulp just for being out after dark and white, that affects my view of these things.

Above and beyond that, in your replies to Cause you should likely take into account that the race issue in South Africa is a much more complex one with MANY more layers than the ones in any of North America...and unless you're well schooled in that area of the world I think I'd personally take the word of someone who lives there over possible assumptions.

I think we Westerners largely forget that racism isn't just a factor specific to North America (nor is it as easily defined by one definition and set of variables). My own stepmother grew up in India during the end of British colonialism and as a white British person she suffered horrible acts of brutality and racism from the local population. Why? Well, because they didn't like their country run by Brits and considered them (rightfully so) unwanted conquerors...but explain to me how that is the fault of a young girl who's family lived there. She did nothing wrong, but was apparently constantly reminded she was not welcome. This has created in my stepmom a deep-seated anger and fear of India and Pakistan and to this day she has an upset aimed in that direction. Her childhood was traumatic and the reason for that trauma was racism...and when I look at it from the outside, the trauma stemmed from BOTH sides...the Brits should never have been there, but some of the indigenous population harassing any and all Brits when they could was not an altruistic answer either. Is my stepmom a bad person? No. She is the unfortunate product of the widespread racism that can exist in all forms and especially in places where both sides start throwing bigger rocks (as was presented as an analogy upthread).

My grandmother was half-Japanese and living in Shanghai, China in the 1920's and her father swore her to secrecy about her heritage because the Japanese were not fondly looked upon by the Chinese population...she STILL keeps that secret and won't reveal that we have Japanese heritage or that her mother was the Japanese daughter of a well-respected Kyoto family...even though the rest of us know...that's how deep this stuff can go. A woman who is nearly 100 years old still keeps her heritage and that of her mother a secret because of racism that was prevalent when she was a girl.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 14 July 2014 - 03:20 PM

[Obdigore]

QuickTidal, on 14 July 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Studlock, on 14 July 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

If you can provide me with statistical proof that white are discriminated in anyway to the benefit of people of colour I'll gladly agree with you but I highly doubt you'll find any such stat.

Not to the benefit mind you but, due to things like this occurring and growing since 1988 living in a northern town as a white person can be about as dangerous as it gets after a certain hour of the day. Having known family who have lived in northern Manitoba in recent years, going outside after 8PM is basically an invitation for harassment. The police actively warn the residents to NOT go outside after 8PM in fact.

That's not living, that's a state of fear.

I mention this because as long as someone is of aboriginal background when they go out, they don't have to belong to the aforementioned gang but will still be left alone (because they are native)...the same is not true if they are white apparently.

The root of this problem lies in the Canadian gov't dropping the ball in the sectors of education and activities and such for youths on reserves, and that's a huge issue and the real reason behind this growth in street gangs...but the idea that the violence and racism associated with them hasn't been subsequently turned on basically anyone who is not native across northern Canada is not really a point that can stand any longer.

Yes, the Canadian gov't needs to deal with the root of the problem...but in the meantime having to live in fear of dominating gang entities in northern places because of the colour of ones skin is not something that I feel should be overlooked either.

So while I wholly agree with your points about the Gov't needing to deal with the root issues (A large portion of this is because a moron like Harper runs the country and does dumbass shit like this) and racism against aboriginals is still a very big and present issue, I think you may have let anger override what is clearly a growing backlash against a white population solely because their skin colour is the same as those idiots in power.

I personally don't have to suffer anything like what I'm sure you have in your life (though as a teen in Highschool the neo-nazi assholes who attended my school threatened my life because they learned I have Japanese heritage and I was dating a girl who they knew) so I can't at all understand it on the level I'm sure you do. My post isn't to rile you, but to say that yes there is a quotient of racism leveled at white people in Canada from a sector of natives...it's not at all on the same scale mind you...I get that...but that doesn't mean we should sweep it under the rug as not happening. When a family member who lived in a northern town feared for his life as he walked to his car after work because people were being roundly beaten to a pulp just for being out after dark and white, that affects my view of these things.

Above and beyond that, in your replies to Cause you should likely take into account that the race issue in South Africa is a much more complex one with MANY more layers than the ones in any of North America...and unless you're well schooled in that area of the world I think I'd personally take the word of someone who lives there over possible assumptions.

I think we Westerners largely forget that racism isn't just a factor specific to North America (nor is it as easily defined by one definition and set of variables). My own stepmother grew up in India during the end of British colonialism and as a white British person she suffered horrible acts of brutality and racism from the local population. Why? Well, because they didn't like their country run by Brits and considered them (rightfully so) unwanted conquerors...but explain to me how that is the fault of a young girl who's family lived there. She did nothing wrong, but was apparently constantly reminded she was not welcome. This has created in my stepmom a deep-seated anger and fear of India and Pakistan and to this day she has an upset aimed in that direction. Her childhood was traumatic and the reason for that trauma was racism...and when I look at it from the outside, the trauma stemmed from BOTH sides...the Brits should never have been there, but some of the indigenous population harassing any and all Brits when they could was not an altruistic answer either. Is my stepmom a bad person? No. She is the unfortunate product of the widespread racism that can exist in all forms and especially in places where both sides start throwing bigger rocks (as was presented as an analogy upthread).

My grandmother was half-Japanese and living in Shanghai, China in the 1920's and her father swore her to secrecy about her heritage because the Japanese were not fondly looked upon by the Chinese population...she STILL keeps that secret and won't reveal that we have Japanese heritage or that her mother was the Japanese daughter of a well-respected Kyoto family...even though the rest of us know...that's how deep this stuff can go. A woman who is nearly 100 years old still keeps her heritage and that of her mother a secret because of racism that was prevalent when she was a girl.

Anecdotes are not evidence.

Want to try again?

[QuickTidal]

Obdigore, on 14 July 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

Anecdotes are not evidence.

Want to try again?

As a result of the fact that most racial prejudice and crime is anecdotal by the very nature of it largely being not reported to the bodies who would make statistics...it's a little tough to present anything else as any kind of example.

But hey, if you want stats, I can give you the only ones we really have:

Based on (reported hate crimes) http://www.statcan.g...l/tbl03-eng.htm Caucasian are actually higher on the list of targets of hate crime than Aboriginals (you'll note neither are anywhere near the stats for Black people [which is terrible to see]).

And I really was trying to point out that Studlock makes a VERY valid point about how our government handles aboriginal issues including education and I fully agree with him on that, I just wanted to point out that racism does seem to go the other way VIA an ingrained upset that stems from that treatment as well. It's a vicious cycle.

I was trying to continue to conversation really. Based on those in my family who experienced it first and second-hand.

Did you have anything to add to the discussion?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 15 July 2014 - 01:06 AM

[Obdigore]

QuickTidal, on 15 July 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

Obdigore, on 14 July 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

Anecdotes are not evidence.

Want to try again?

As a result of the fact that most racial prejudice and crime is anecdotal by the very nature of it largely being not reported to the bodies who would make statistics...it's a little tough to present anything else as any kind of example.

Bullshit.

Quote

But hey, if you want stats, I can give you the only ones we really have:

Based on (reported hate crimes) http://www.statcan.g...l/tbl03-eng.htm Caucasian are actually higher on the list of targets of hate crime than Aboriginals (you'll note neither are anywhere near the stats for Black people [which is terrible to see]).

And I really was trying to point out that Studlock makes a VERY valid point about how our government handles aboriginal issues including education and I fully agree with him on that, I just wanted to point out that racism does seem to go the other way VIA an ingrained upset that stems from that treatment as well. It's a vicious cycle.

I was trying to continue to conversation really. Based on those in my family who experienced it first and second-hand.

No, you were playing 'poor little quicktidal'.

Quote

Did you have anything to add to the discussion?

Just tearing down your 'poor little quicktidal' jaunt through never never land. This conversation is already pretty shitty, but posts like the one I replied to don't help in any way, shape, or form.

[Tsundoku]

Studlock asked for anecdotes about racial abuse either personally experienced, or by someone you know. I believe QTs reply answered that question.

I thought his reply was probably in a far better tone than the last few before it though - mine included.

You're right about it being a pretty shitty conversation. The topic tends not to bring forth unicorns and rainbows, even at its most diplomatic and reasoned.

Pax.

[Macros]

Studlock, on 14 July 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Yeah the chip is called racism, and you know actually experiencing every single day of my life unlike you know not, but still complaining that you do despite every single measurement that society has to measure such things says you don't. I never denied POC can't be prejudices bastards but being a prejudice bastard does not mean you contribute to racist system. You seem to be equating having rude things said about you to have a system that destroy lives on a value judgement of skin-colour/ethnicity. Let me ask has your, or anyone else you know, life been side-line because people literally refused to employ them because of their skin colour? Because that shit happens daily on reserve. Have you been pulled over because of your skin colour? It happens at least once a month to me. Have you had the cops called on you while playing basketball in a 'white neighborhood' because you might be 'dangerous'? I have. Have people called you slurs as you walk down the street simply because you fucking exist? My grandparents lived through that. Have you experienced any of that? If the answer is no then shut the fuck up with your reverse racism bullshit. And just as a kicker, everything I just said can literally be backed up state collected statistics. Your complaining about a non-existent problem as if it's an equal problem to actual racism. If you can provide me with statistical proof that white are discriminated in anyway to the benefit of people of colour I'll gladly agree with you but I highly doubt you'll find any such stat.

Also we don't live a Greek tragedy we will in real life where my people are punished for white peoples past sins while you benefit from it. And then try to equate the systemic suffering of POC to being called a cracker, and then also try to pretend you live in a meritocracy where only those who are the most qualified get hired for jobs to continuing to justify your own privilege (haha so fucking disingenuous). I agree it's not your fault just like it's not my fault I was born into a settler state that thinks my skin colour makes me a savage but of course to you both of those are pretty much on the level. I apologize Great White Sir, let my get your coat and suck your dick while I'm at it.

again studlock. I am not denying racism exists, believe me when I say this. What I take issue with is your attitude that every white person seems to be to blame.
have I experienced bigotry to the degree you describe? Most certainly not, I live in a 99.9% white town. Have I been spat on and threatened because I'm a protestant? Yes I have, have I lost friends to the IRA? Yes I fucking have, do I turn and hate Catholics for it? My best friends are Catholics, if (gods forbid) I ever get married, my best man will be a catholic. You can't justify punishing the majority because of what happened in the past, or what the minority of the majority still do. The solution is total equality, getting there is the issue and I believe it starts early, education system has major issues that need redressed, and that (in my mind) would.filter through. Does it change things for the average man(or woman) on the street right now? Unlikely, but give me an answer that will, and that wont cause resentment in some quarters and I'll sign over everything I own to you immediately.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but raging against me wont change shit, I'm not the person who shouted abuse at you, I just happen to share his skin colour, there's wankers the world over.

don't forget to cup my halls when you're down there


eta- replied before realising there was another page. Blegh etc

This post has been edited by Macros: 15 July 2014 - 09:12 AM

[Obdigore]

Sombra, on 15 July 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

You're right about it being a pretty shitty conversation. The topic tends not to bring forth unicorns and rainbows, even at its most diplomatic and reasoned.

This is a shitty conversation, not because of the topic, but because of how posters are addressing it.

Institutionalized Racism, which is what Studlock has been on about, is absolutely the most damaging form of Racism, and the only one our governments and cultures can attempt to address, and is generally what is taught at 'racism' at higher educational levels. It is literally everywhere in the US (and I can't speak for other countries because I don't live there.) I see it every day, in lots of different places, mass media down to just the way people talk and hiring practices.

The only way to change peoples (read: racists) mind about other races is through education and exposure. This education doesn't happen in the home, because racism is a taught behavior from your (and my) lovely parents, who learned it from their parents, and so on. Exposure requires structure in place to protect the minority while being exposed to that racist majority. This will eventually (read: generations) lead to an understanding that people are just people. It's easy to demonize the guy from ooga-booga, it's harder to demonize Jamaal who lives 2 doors down and grew up with you. Thus, attempting to help the minority climb out of the shit-hole that your counties past actions have put them in, to try and help them assimilate into your economy just like everyone else, instead of keeping them at the bottom to the best of your ability, is what must be done to stamp out both institutionalized and personal racism.

The problems are as follows:

1) The people in control of the money (and thus, most of the power in the Western World) are overwhelmingly white, male, and want to keep it that way.
and
2) These people highlight extremists of the (minority race here) who believe that 'whitey should get a taste of their own medicine', and try to flog the majority into a frenzy.

Meanwhile, the Western World continues to utterly exploit tons of countries and peoples to maintain our standard of living, and judging by China's past history, (read: rising power), they wont hestitate to do so either.

Racism isn't the only reason you might get killed for walking in the wrong neighborhood. You could be wearing the wrong team jersey, the wrong shoes, look like a prosperous tourist, or just stare at somebody wrong. Acting like racism is reserved for a minority is foolish and incorrect. Acting like the racism that must be addressed by the governments of the world goes any further than the institutionalized racism is wrong and incorrect. (Beyond the current laws against things like, you know, assault and murder and whatnot)

'We' haven't forgotten what racism is. You might have. Sexism is the same way. Yes this is a shameless XKCD plug.

[amphibian]

There is absolutely no call for us to be discussing the feasibility or desirability of fondling or touching one another's genitals in here. Studlock, Macros, don't do that. Maintaining respect for one another, despite anger and controversial topics at hand, is crucial.

Macros, on 15 July 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

again studlock. I am not denying racism exists, believe me when I say this. What I take issue with is your attitude that every white person seems to be to blame.

I believe that there is a collective responsibility of atoning for the sins of the past that white people are shirking. I'm half white myself and if you go up my white family tree, you run into James Polk - an mid-19th century President who owned slaves all his life, led the swiping of Texas from Mexico, issued a gag order on abolitionist petitions, extended the Missouri Compromise (entrenching slavery) to the newly acquired territory and more.

Polk was a big factor in the US being the historical and modern day asshole on the geopolitical scene and wasn't a great person himself either. I have nothing to do directly with his actions or wrongs, but I do have some responsibility as the benefactor of his deeds and policies (as well as those of others) to address the wrongs instituted then and since then.

That doesn't mean I go around apologizing personally to every black person I meet, which would be an astoundingly racist thing to do. It means that I educate myself on what really happened in history, where the scoundrels really were and what they did to others. I also take care of those around me, confronting the small wrongs, the wrongs on an individual scale, and ensuring that what goes forwards from me and mine is better than what came before for all.

This is why Macros and others have to ratchet down the prickliness about accepting responsibility. This is why you give a little more leeway to someone like Studlock or Cause, because this stuff we're attempting to talk about is so heavy and freighted with context that it makes people genuinely angry and remember some of the worst moments of their lives and remember old pains to their family and friends as well.

It might also be why Stone Monkey said a small bit and then left the conversation.

[Macros]

I respectfully disagree on some points there's amp.

you have no responsibility for what mr Polk did or not do, you were not there to influence what he did or any of his friends did, or take a stand against him.
Do we all collectively have a responsibility to respect every person as equals? Yes most definitely, and in this current conversation that means tackling the inequality and racism inherent to the 'system'. But I'll be damned if I feel guilty for what the British Empire did hundreds of years ago without my support or involvement. And I'll be damned if I'm going to be called a *censored* for simply being born white, its not my fault and bar some drastic tropic thunder surgery I cant change it.
All we can affect is the here and now and the future, I am of the opinion that needs to start at the roots, by primarily addressing the education gap between the haves, and have nots. That is the only way to stop the vicious cycle, affirmative action, whilst is sound in theory, does not work in practice, it leads to over qualified people not getting jobs and under qualified getting jobs. The solution is to give everyone the opportunity to get the knowledge required, not shoehorn people into jobs to fill quotas.

[amphibian]

I believe that there are affirmative action policies that do work and don't lead to parodoxically bad results. The ones Cause outlined are not those policies by a large margin.

[Illuyankas]

A simple quick google shows US states that banned affirmative action in universities show decreased or stagnating numbers of minority enrolments that don't come close to how many of that minority live in said states, as just one example of how it works.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 15 July 2014 - 04:02 PM

[Macros]

Not knowing an awful lot about the US college system (beyond that it seems hideously expensive) I don't really know what to do with these graphs. Is college entry granted merely on academic performance or is it entirely private and paid for (outside of sports scholarships which I learned about from Friday night lights.)

if the former then surely the answer is to improve standards at high schools.
if the latter then the answer is an inequality issue again between the haves and have nots, the answer being that they need more funding for college education or colleges need to cut their fees. Its quite a few years since I was at uni in the UK, and thankfully I missed the top up fees fiasco, but I know plenty of people here who couldn't afford uni, but bursaries and their SLs got them through their degree.

[amphibian]

Macros, on 15 July 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Not knowing an awful lot about the US college system (beyond that it seems hideously expensive) I don't really know what to do with these graphs. Is college entry granted merely on academic performance or is it entirely private and paid for (outside of sports scholarships which I learned about from Friday night lights.)

There are state colleges (public) and private colleges. Some are for profit and some are not. Some give out lots of scholarships and cheap financial aid. Others give out few scholarships and/or expensive financial aid. The government makes some loans available as well and people have been taking them. However, due to the wrecking of the modern economy from the 1980s onwards by the fat cats and purposeful/accidental weakening of the infrastructure of many areas of the country, the rewards of a college degree or advanced college degree aren't as high as they used to be and student loans have become usurious in many cases.

Also, some of the bigger names have bumped up their price tags simply because they can due to demand and also to fund construction of new buildings, rather than to supply improved education. I recall looking over the paperwork of a cousin at Harvard when I was at Boston College and seeing that most of my classes were doing harder work for the same grades. At the same time, education - particularly state funded schools - regularly take budgetary cuts when it comes time to cut things from the budget. Old people's medical costs and retirement benefits are too costly to cut, so the education and police/utilities/environmental/health budgets get slashed.

Quote

if the former then surely the answer is to improve standards at high schools.
if the latter then the answer is an inequality issue again between the haves and have nots, the answer being that they need more funding for college education or colleges need to cut their fees. Its quite a few years since I was at uni in the UK, and thankfully I missed the top up fees fiasco, but I know plenty of people here who couldn't afford uni, but bursaries and their SLs got them through their degree.

Well, where does this funding for education spending come from?

Taxes are the most common source. If the minority communities are poorer than the white majority communities, then they'll have less taxes to contribute to education, to infrastructure, to transportation, to food and shelter stability and more.

There's also a huge debate over what is the best way to improve standards at primary schools (kindergarten to high school) and that's a debate with billions and billions of dollars and childrens' futures at stake, so it's not readily solvable. Add into that the Tea Party/extreme right wing distrust of unions, of which the Teachers' Union is one of the more powerful and one of the more benevolent, and you get a really big headache, particularly when budget cuts must be made due to political pressure. I'll say quite frankly that many Republicans and some Democrats do not understand in the slightest what long term effects their actions have and/or even purposeful misconstrue them to the general public. It's also true that we're just now noticing long term effects in many areas, ranging from the 1980s all the way back to the Stone Age, due to increased and better scholarship in and the paying of attention to such things worldwide.

Constant family time and parents pushing the child to excel academically is probably the biggest factor in academic success, but we have many situations where minority families don't have the time, money or energy to devote to their kids as the white majority families do - because of institutional and private racism and racism aftereffects set in place centuries or decades ago. The effects are still felt today and are still ongoing in many ways.

[Macros]

This is what I am trying to say, this is where equality needs to begin, at schools, on a basic level, considering my dislike of the MODs budget in the uk I'm sure the USs is far greater and that right there is where you could theoretically get the money.
source of funding aside, the problem obviously runs deeper than simply throwing money at a school, it touches into political corruption (which can, and does happen in any country in the world) and financial banker wankers lining their pockets.
Do all schools budgets get cut/ improved equally, I would doubt it very much, that's the first round of inequality that needs to be hit, a genuinely equal spread of the resources for learning.

[Illuyankas]

Normally it's based on performance, which is a vicious circle, as one bad year leading to bad stats means you get less funding, hurting your chances of pulling out of the decline and making it permanently worse, leading to worse stats next year, and even less funding, and then you and the kids you're teaching are screwed. Statistically this sort of thing happens most often in deprived areas, often minority-filled ones. Assuming that the education system is fixed overnight magically and every child now in the system gets the fair and equal chance they deserve, affirmative action would help out those already out of the system and trying to make a living or an education overcome the handicap they were stuck with. Add on a few decades for the actual fix education gets.

[Cause]

Illuyankas, on 15 July 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

A simple quick google shows US states that banned affirmative action in universities show decreased or stagnating numbers of minority enrolments that don't come close to how many of that minority live in said states, as just one example of how it works.

Those graphs actually don't support your argument. They show that the banning or reinstatement of affirmative action has had almost no effect (I imagine a one or two point difference is statistically insignificant but the data is not provided). Any upward of downward trend starts way before the ban or reinstatement. Further the data is a worthless measure. You can't compare the number of potential college students vs how many are in college? How many applied? How many wanted to? How many went to other states? More Hispanics enrolled in Michigan university than are theoretically available in the whole state! They needed to show the same graph for white students so we could see how it fluctuates as well. If there is a trend on all 3 its obviously as a result of a different cause and as I suspect it would also show that the gap for whites is not a flat line either,

This post has been edited by Cause: 15 July 2014 - 05:20 PM

[Macros]

I don't agree with performance related budgets either, surely that will.only encourage teachers to be softer marking coursework and the like?

[Vengeance]

I read this Wrong Answer last night and feel that it might be a appropriate to the current discussion here. This was a pretty big deal when it happened a couple of years ago. Living in Chicago which is one of the most segregated cities in the US we see and hear of a lot of these same things going on. Especially with neighborhoods trying to keep there schools from being closed. The complete bulshit need to treat education like it is a business is creating a different divide then racial. It is increasing the inequality divide. Of course a majority of the minorities will fall on the lower end of that divide. In between no child left behind and the religious nut jobs trying to put God into the class room and remove science there will end up being a major equality gap.

This post has been edited by Vengeance: 15 July 2014 - 08:06 PM