[Pallid]

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Pallid, on 18 June 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Worth bearing in mind that this is a Killers vs Town game according to the OP. That means no symps, and it's probably safe to assume two paired killers. So given that, why are people looking for signalling? There are no roles to code and no reason for anyone to need to signal anyone else. Interactions and distancing are the name of the game in a scenario like this.

Where you get no symps because it is a killers vs town game. The bare basic m/p game is a killer with a symp. Paired killers actually increase the TMDI level because you have to put town roles in that balance out killer communication. With just a killer and a symp, town does not need to have any roles. I disagree on your conclusion that there can not be a symp in the game. Saying something like that seems like an attempt to generate WIFOM for no reason.

The thing about a basic m/p game having a symp is a load of rubbish. Clearly the basic roles in the game are Town and Killer - if you've ever played live Mafia, that would be obvious - the Symp is actually a role specific to online Mafia play, as far as I can tell.

From the OP:

Shinrei, on 17 June 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

There is no setting. There is no spoon. Just Killers and Town.

I think that's a pretty clear statement that all that is in the game are Killers and Townies. That you are disputing this is surprising to me - you are creating confusion and complexity where none need to exist given the explicit statement in the OP to the contrary.

[Barghast]

Nimander Golit, on 18 June 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Barghast, on 18 June 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

He said there is no spoon, so no curve ball, just town and killers, if there were something else in the game then why just not say standard M and P? All he mentioned is town and killers so that is what I am going to play to. There's no point looking for something that may not be there.

Think maybe Barghast is trying to turn us off the idea of symps for a reason?

Yeah because of the OP.

https://38.media.tum...rio4_r1_400.gif

[Pallid]

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Since when is a symp mentioned?

According to Mafia Wiki

Normal Games

The Traitor (Symp on our forum) is a common and allowed for basic games. To assume that there is not a symp seems like a big stretch at any point.

You can't in good faith try to use that link to establish what is 'basic'. This was their list of 'Normal' roles:

Quote

• Roles which are explicitly Normal include: Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Encryptor, Mafia Strongman, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia-aligned or SK-aligned versions of above roles

That should make it clear that what they consider standard over there is not relevant to what we consider standard over here.

Again, all the information we have suggests this is no more complicated than killers and town. Why are you looking to make it more complicated?


ETF: Formatting

This post has been edited by Pallid: 18 June 2014 - 04:24 PM

[Galayn Lord]

Barghast, on 18 June 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 18 June 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Barghast, on 18 June 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

He said there is no spoon, so no curve ball, just town and killers, if there were something else in the game then why just not say standard M and P? All he mentioned is town and killers so that is what I am going to play to. There's no point looking for something that may not be there.

Think maybe Barghast is trying to turn us off the idea of symps for a reason?

Yeah because of the OP.

https://38.media.tum...rio4_r1_400.gif

Someone tell Barghast how to imbed gifs please

[Galayn Lord]

Pallid, on 18 June 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Since when is a symp mentioned?

According to Mafia Wiki

Normal Games

The Traitor (Symp on our forum) is a common and allowed for basic games. To assume that there is not a symp seems like a big stretch at any point.

You can't in good faith try to use that link to establish what is 'basic'. This was their list of 'Normal' roles:

Quote

• Roles which are explicitly Normal include: Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Encryptor, Mafia Strongman, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia-aligned or SK-aligned versions of above roles

That should make it clear that what they consider standard over there is not relevant to what we consider standard over here.

Again, all the information we have suggests this is no more complicated than killers and town. Why are you looking to make it more complicated?


ETF: Formatting

I'm going to withhold judgement on symp/no symp. To be certain there isn't one is going to leave you open to being blindsided

[Denul]

Barghast, on 18 June 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Barghast, on 18 June 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 17 June 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Dear Malazan Mafia Addicts

There is no setting. There is no spoon. Just Killers and Town.

In Mafia, no one can hear you screaming at your computer

RI pm is simply - you are RI

I will write scenes, but they will make no sense whatsoever.

It is day 1, 36 hours are left. Nights will be instantaneous.

12 players are alive.

Ampelas, Atrahal, Barghast, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Liosan, Nimander Golit, Pallid, Sukul Ankhadu


No one has voted.


A TRUE M&P GAME IS ON.

People looking for signalling cases is a bit suspect, right in the OP he said killers and town. No symp was mentioned at all.

Nothing has stood out to me at all, or nothing worth a mention.

https://38.media.tum...pjjrio1_400.gif

Since when is a symp mentioned?

According to Mafia Wiki

Normal Games

The Traitor (Symp on our forum) is a common and allowed for basic games. To assume that there is not a symp seems like a big stretch at any point.

He said there is no spoon, so no curve ball, just town and killers, if there were something else in the game then why just not say standard M and P? All he mentioned is town and killers so that is what I am going to play to. There's no point looking for something that may not be there.

So your thinking one killer or paired killers. Paired killer who can talk or only paired killers who know each other. If they know each other but can't talk then they would each have a kill. If they don't know each other then the possibility that the game can end on night one. Which would be fucking funny. If they know each other and can talk then that is a huge scum advantage. Which would have to be balanced out by town having at least a paired guard roles. Since I don't see any of that in the sign up either. Durrr I am going to say that the easiest game would be to have a single killer with a symp. Thus no need for even basic town roles.

[Nimander Golit]

I think GL is right. The whole symp argument is a bucket of WIFOM anyway, so I suggest we just move on from the discussion, and look for killers. We wouldn't know if we hit a symp anyway, so there's no point in trying to find one, and it wouldn't be important until potential D-Day anyway.

[Denul]

Pallid, on 18 June 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Since when is a symp mentioned?

According to Mafia Wiki

Normal Games

The Traitor (Symp on our forum) is a common and allowed for basic games. To assume that there is not a symp seems like a big stretch at any point.

You can't in good faith try to use that link to establish what is 'basic'. This was their list of 'Normal' roles:

Quote

• Roles which are explicitly Normal include: Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Encryptor, Mafia Strongman, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia-aligned or SK-aligned versions of above roles

That should make it clear that what they consider standard over there is not relevant to what we consider standard over here.

Again, all the information we have suggests this is no more complicated than killers and town. Why are you looking to make it more complicated?


ETF: Formatting

I am not. I am stating that saying that there is no symp is fucking retarded. Just like stating that there is 2 killers is fucking retarded. Saying that people shouldn't pay attention to possible signaling when we don't know if there is a symp or not nor will we until the game is over. Is asking for trouble.


Editted to add an period at the end of I am not.

This post has been edited by Denul: 18 June 2014 - 04:35 PM

[Nimander Golit]

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

So your thinking one killer or paired killers. Paired killer who can talk or only paired killers who know each other. If they know each other but can't talk then they would each have a kill. If they don't know each other then the possibility that the game can end on night one. Which would be fucking funny. If they know each other and can talk then that is a huge scum advantage. Which would have to be balanced out by town having at least a paired guard roles. Since I don't see any of that in the sign up either. Durrr I am going to say that the easiest game would be to have a single killer with a symp. Thus no need for even basic town roles.

There are 12 players - if there are paired killers, then that's 10 town vs. 2 scum. Why would that be unbalanced? That's a 5:1 ratio in town's favour, which is better than town usually gets.

[Denul]

Nimander Golit, on 18 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

So your thinking one killer or paired killers. Paired killer who can talk or only paired killers who know each other. If they know each other but can't talk then they would each have a kill. If they don't know each other then the possibility that the game can end on night one. Which would be fucking funny. If they know each other and can talk then that is a huge scum advantage. Which would have to be balanced out by town having at least a paired guard roles. Since I don't see any of that in the sign up either. Durrr I am going to say that the easiest game would be to have a single killer with a symp. Thus no need for even basic town roles.

There are 12 players - if there are paired killers, then that's 10 town vs. 2 scum. Why would that be unbalanced? That's a 5:1 ratio in town's favour, which is better than town usually gets.

Paired scum would be able to talk to each other. Which gives them an greater advantage to plan and coordinate actions. See the last game. See the game before that and the one before that one. Shit see every game with paired killers played in 2014. Paired killers who can talk have a big step up on town. They can talk about how to deflect and how to distance from each other so that it works perfectly. The fact that you think that paired killers is not unbalanced against roleless town is why town hasn't won a game in eons.

[Denul]

Nimander Golit, on 18 June 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

I think GL is right. The whole symp argument is a bucket of WIFOM anyway, so I suggest we just move on from the discussion, and look for killers. We wouldn't know if we hit a symp anyway, so there's no point in trying to find one, and it wouldn't be important until potential D-Day anyway.

Nimander Golit, on 18 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

So your thinking one killer or paired killers. Paired killer who can talk or only paired killers who know each other. If they know each other but can't talk then they would each have a kill. If they don't know each other then the possibility that the game can end on night one. Which would be fucking funny. If they know each other and can talk then that is a huge scum advantage. Which would have to be balanced out by town having at least a paired guard roles. Since I don't see any of that in the sign up either. Durrr I am going to say that the easiest game would be to have a single killer with a symp. Thus no need for even basic town roles.

There are 12 players - if there are paired killers, then that's 10 town vs. 2 scum. Why would that be unbalanced? That's a 5:1 ratio in town's favour, which is better than town usually gets.

Pick what you want to do. Do you want to continue to throw down over this or do you want to move on. I am fine doing either one.

[Nimander Golit]

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 18 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

So your thinking one killer or paired killers. Paired killer who can talk or only paired killers who know each other. If they know each other but can't talk then they would each have a kill. If they don't know each other then the possibility that the game can end on night one. Which would be fucking funny. If they know each other and can talk then that is a huge scum advantage. Which would have to be balanced out by town having at least a paired guard roles. Since I don't see any of that in the sign up either. Durrr I am going to say that the easiest game would be to have a single killer with a symp. Thus no need for even basic town roles.

There are 12 players - if there are paired killers, then that's 10 town vs. 2 scum. Why would that be unbalanced? That's a 5:1 ratio in town's favour, which is better than town usually gets.

Paired scum would be able to talk to each other. Which gives them an greater advantage to plan and coordinate actions. See the last game. See the game before that and the one before that one. Shit see every game with paired killers played in 2014. Paired killers who can talk have a big step up on town. They can talk about how to deflect and how to distance from each other so that it works perfectly. The fact that you think that paired killers is not unbalanced against roleless town is why town hasn't won a game in eons.

Granted I haven't been around these boards as long as many others in this game, I think that paired killers is pretty much the standard M&P setup. I don't think it's because of paired killers that town have been losing, I think it's because of piss-poor town play paired with excellent scum play. You're right that offthread comms is an advantage, but the ratio is still 5:1, which is still slanted toward town more than scum, even with paired killers. I am confident that anyone who mods regularly will agree.

[Hood's Path]

Ampelas, on 18 June 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

That was so superbly timed by Pallid and Denul that I am in awe.

Kaschan can you tell us what the "Callsign Swamp Thing" was?

Interesting idea.

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Pallid, on 18 June 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Worth bearing in mind that this is a Killers vs Town game according to the OP. That means no symps, and it's probably safe to assume two paired killers. So given that, why are people looking for signalling? There are no roles to code and no reason for anyone to need to signal anyone else. Interactions and distancing are the name of the game in a scenario like this.

Where you get no symps because it is a killers vs town game. The bare basic m/p game is a killer with a symp. Paired killers actually increase the TMDI level because you have to put town roles in that balance out killer communication. With just a killer and a symp, town does not need to have any roles. I disagree on your conclusion that there can not be a symp in the game. Saying something like that seems like an attempt to generate WIFOM for no reason.

Denul, are you trying to hint that we have some roles? 'Cause that is definitely not in the OP. Of course, getting us arguing about symps means we're less likely to notice that you're saying that paired killers are unlikely. Which, given the superbly timed posts earlier, makes me suspicious.

[Nimander Golit]

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 18 June 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

I think GL is right. The whole symp argument is a bucket of WIFOM anyway, so I suggest we just move on from the discussion, and look for killers. We wouldn't know if we hit a symp anyway, so there's no point in trying to find one, and it wouldn't be important until potential D-Day anyway.

Nimander Golit, on 18 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

So your thinking one killer or paired killers. Paired killer who can talk or only paired killers who know each other. If they know each other but can't talk then they would each have a kill. If they don't know each other then the possibility that the game can end on night one. Which would be fucking funny. If they know each other and can talk then that is a huge scum advantage. Which would have to be balanced out by town having at least a paired guard roles. Since I don't see any of that in the sign up either. Durrr I am going to say that the easiest game would be to have a single killer with a symp. Thus no need for even basic town roles.

There are 12 players - if there are paired killers, then that's 10 town vs. 2 scum. Why would that be unbalanced? That's a 5:1 ratio in town's favour, which is better than town usually gets.

Pick what you want to do. Do you want to continue to throw down over this or do you want to move on. I am fine doing either one.

I'm fine with moving on, our arguing about this won't change anything nor does it help us in any real way. I think it's best to assume that there are AT LEAST 2 killers, be they paired or not. Any less makes no sense.

[Ampelas]

I am now of the opinion that there is no sympage going on in this game.

Killers and town is explicit enough for me. Until Shin states otherise we should drop the symp search.

[Liosan]

Galayn Lord, on 18 June 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Liosan, on 18 June 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 18 June 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Liosan, on 18 June 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 18 June 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Pallid, on 18 June 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Well, since that case of Denul's basically refutes my reason for voting for him, I shall:

Remove Vote

I can see he's thinking along similar lines to my reasoning above in his case. But actually, the player who stood out a bit more to me was Barghast, particularly with this post:

Barghast, on 18 June 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

I'm not very good at small talk. However, this did make me laugh..

Which happened a full two hours after this post from Shinrei:

Shinrei, on 18 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

It is day 1, 15 hours and 10 minutes are left.

12 players are alive.

Ampelas, Atrahal, Barghast, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Liosan, Nimander Golit, Pallid, Sukul Ankhadu

1 vote Sukul Ankhadu: Pallid
1 vote Hood's Path: Galayn Lord

Players not voting: Ampelas, Atrahal, Barghast, Denul, Eloth, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Liosan, Nimander Golit, Sukul Ankhadu

Note the underlined. We are short on time, and Barghast is cracking jokes with no indication that he's willing to engage his brain (even on the meagre evidence that had been presented up to that point).

Noting the underlined, does that post by Barghast stink of signalling or is it just me that thinks so?

HP, good of you to join us.

Remove Vote

On my phone so no complicated shit from me today.

I was thinking the random vote on HP was showing that you didn't care who you voted for (scummy imo) but with the remove vote due to HP appearing it seems like you were just jumping the gun on trying to get people to appear and post when there wasn't anything happening on thread. So you lose suspiciousness to me

This seems like a post trying to say that GL is town like to me. This makes me want to pay more attention to both you and GL.

Agreed, I dislike that post immeasurably. The style of judging an alt on single posts rubs me up the wrong way.

Vote Liosan

Well this is interesting. I was judging you based on your actions the entire game: jokes, voting HP, removing, and now jumping on to denuls suspicions of me the moment you get brought up as connected to me. Seems like some jumpy, scared distancing. And now you're much more suspicious to me.

I wont OMGUS vote you, but know you're suspicious in my eyes

Oh wow, I'm suspicious again now. Consistent aren't you.

My vote is entirely independent of Denul - I based it soley off your single post that was quoted above.

You acted, I used the information it gave to draw conclusions. Its the way Mafia works, and just because those conclusions changed doesnt mean anything.

Also, what happened to not judging an alt based on one post?

[Hood's Path]

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 18 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

So your thinking one killer or paired killers. Paired killer who can talk or only paired killers who know each other. If they know each other but can't talk then they would each have a kill. If they don't know each other then the possibility that the game can end on night one. Which would be fucking funny. If they know each other and can talk then that is a huge scum advantage. Which would have to be balanced out by town having at least a paired guard roles. Since I don't see any of that in the sign up either. Durrr I am going to say that the easiest game would be to have a single killer with a symp. Thus no need for even basic town roles.

There are 12 players - if there are paired killers, then that's 10 town vs. 2 scum. Why would that be unbalanced? That's a 5:1 ratio in town's favour, which is better than town usually gets.

Paired scum would be able to talk to each other. Which gives them an greater advantage to plan and coordinate actions. See the last game. See the game before that and the one before that one. Shit see every game with paired killers played in 2014. Paired killers who can talk have a big step up on town. They can talk about how to deflect and how to distance from each other so that it works perfectly. The fact that you think that paired killers is not unbalanced against roleless town is why town hasn't won a game in eons.

And that's what I get for not reading to the end before posting.

[Hood's Path]

I'm likely to not be around any for the next 5 or 6 hours. There's still at least that much time in the day isn't there?

[Galayn Lord]

Hood, on 18 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I'm likely to not be around any for the next 5 or 6 hours. There's still at least that much time in the day isn't there?

10 hours give or take

[Liosan]

Hood, on 18 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I'm likely to not be around any for the next 5 or 6 hours. There's still at least that much time in the day isn't there?

I think theres like 8 or 9 hours left, iirc