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If I remember correctly I thought Rake stated in an earlier book that Moon's Spawn was found far to the north in the ice. Yet here in OST Orchid is saying that it was found in KG and it seems that ICE is stating a fact rather than speculation. Am I wrong on this?
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Moon's Spawn Contradiction
#1
The Unfound 
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Posted 01 May 2014 - 03:43 PM
That psychotic black dwarf with an afro?
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Posted 01 May 2014 - 04:28 PM
The Unfound, on 01 May 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:
If I remember correctly I thought Rake stated in an earlier book that Moon's Spawn was found far to the north in the ice. Yet here in OST Orchid is saying that it was found in KG and it seems that ICE is stating a fact rather than speculation. Am I wrong on this?
Blanking... can someone work some quote fu?
Tho as a basic point, could just be one of those times when different characters know different things. Also, Rake could have been ref'ing 'to the north' in KG, or he could have found it on Malazanland and brought it back to KG for the Andii exodus.
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#3
Spoilsport Stonny
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Posted 01 May 2014 - 05:08 PM
From OST:
Important part is Orchid's qualifier of "Some argue". So she doesn't really know anything except what others have told her, which as we all know by now, don't mean shit.
This is from MOI:
- The Pannion Seer - (MoI, UK Trade, p.696-7)
Looks like myth becomes legend sstuff.
This is from TtH, after Nimander's group comes across the crashed KCCM contaption:
Quote
Malakai frowned his exaggerated disappointment and Antsy squirmed, uncomfortable with the enjoyment the fellow took in baiting the girl. The man set his chin in his hands. 'Tell me, then, what you know of the history of Moon's Spawn.'
Orchid nodded, took a drink of water. Her gaze lost its focus and she spoke slowly, as if parsing some text visible only to her. 'No one really knows the origins of what we call Moon's Spawn. It emerged from Elder Night, but what was it before then? Some argue it is the remnant of a K'Chain Che'Malle artefact that ventured into Kurald Galain and was taken by the Andii. Perhaps. Others suggest it was found abandoned and empty deep within the greatest depths of Utter Night. In either case, Anomander Rake brought it into this realm together with a legion of his race, the Tiste Andii, who followed him as he was the son of their sole deity, Mother Dark.'
Antsy gaped his amazement. He'd heard all kinds of legends and tales touching upon these ancient events, but this girl spoke them as if they were the literal truth!
She resumed after another sip. 'For ages the Spawn floated over the continents, roving everywhere. We know this to be true as it figures in almost every mythology in every land. During these ages its inhabitants rarely involved themselves in human, or Jaghut, or K'Chain affairs. All that changed however with the rise of the Malazan Empire and its ruler, Kellanved. For some reason the Emperor gained Anomander's enmity. Some suggest a failed assault upon the Spawn by Dancer and Kellanved.'
She shrugged, clearing her throat. 'In any case, Anomander opposed Malazan expansion here in Genabackis. From that fell out the engagements up north, the siege of Pale, the Spawn's fracturing and fall, and all the unleashing of Elemental Night at Black Coral.'
Orchid nodded, took a drink of water. Her gaze lost its focus and she spoke slowly, as if parsing some text visible only to her. 'No one really knows the origins of what we call Moon's Spawn. It emerged from Elder Night, but what was it before then? Some argue it is the remnant of a K'Chain Che'Malle artefact that ventured into Kurald Galain and was taken by the Andii. Perhaps. Others suggest it was found abandoned and empty deep within the greatest depths of Utter Night. In either case, Anomander Rake brought it into this realm together with a legion of his race, the Tiste Andii, who followed him as he was the son of their sole deity, Mother Dark.'
Antsy gaped his amazement. He'd heard all kinds of legends and tales touching upon these ancient events, but this girl spoke them as if they were the literal truth!
She resumed after another sip. 'For ages the Spawn floated over the continents, roving everywhere. We know this to be true as it figures in almost every mythology in every land. During these ages its inhabitants rarely involved themselves in human, or Jaghut, or K'Chain affairs. All that changed however with the rise of the Malazan Empire and its ruler, Kellanved. For some reason the Emperor gained Anomander's enmity. Some suggest a failed assault upon the Spawn by Dancer and Kellanved.'
She shrugged, clearing her throat. 'In any case, Anomander opposed Malazan expansion here in Genabackis. From that fell out the engagements up north, the siege of Pale, the Spawn's fracturing and fall, and all the unleashing of Elemental Night at Black Coral.'
Important part is Orchid's qualifier of "Some argue". So she doesn't really know anything except what others have told her, which as we all know by now, don't mean shit.
This is from MOI:
Quote
‘The Jaghut remember Moon’s Spawn. I alone am in possession of the relevant scrolls from Gothos’s Folly that whisper of the K'Chain Nah'ruk – the Short-Tails, misbegotten children of the Matrons – who fashioned mechanisms that bound sorcery in ways long lost, who built vast, floating fortresses from which they launched devastating attacks upon their long-tailed kin...Oh, they lost in the end. Were destroyed. And but one floating fortress remained, damaged, abandoned to the winds. Gothos believed it had drifted north, to collide with the ice of a Jaghut winter, and was so frozen, trapped for millennia. Until found by the Tiste Andii Lord...Anomander Rake knows nothing of Moon’s Spawn’s fullest powers – powers he has no means of accessing even were he to know of them.'
Looks like myth becomes legend sstuff.
This is from TtH, after Nimander's group comes across the crashed KCCM contaption:
Quote
‘That machine.’
‘What about it, Skin?’
‘Where do you think it came from? It looked as if it just . . . appeared, just above one of the buildings, and then dropped, smashing everything in its path, ending with itself. Do you recall those old pumps, the ones beneath Dreth Street in Malaz City? Withal found them in those tunnels he explored? Well, he took us on a tour—’
‘I remember, Skin.’
‘I’m reminded of those machines – all the gears and rods, the way the metal components all meshed so cleverly, ingeniously – I cannot imagine the mind that could think up such constructs.’
‘What is all this about, Skin?’
‘Nothing much. I just wonder if that thing is somehow connected with the arrival of the Dying God.’
‘Connected how?’
‘What if it was like a skykeep? A smaller version, obviously. What if the Dying God was inside it? Some accident brought it down, the locals pulled him out. What if that machine was a kind of throne?’
Nimander thought about that. A curious idea. Andarist had once explained that skykeeps – such as the one Anomander Rake claimed as his own – were not a creation of sorcery, and indeed the floating fortresses were held aloft through arcane manipulations of technology.
K’Chain Che’Malle, Kallor had said. Clearly, he had made the same connection as had Skintick.
‘Why would a god need a machine?’ Nimander asked.
‘How should I know? Anyway, it’s broken now.’
‘What about it, Skin?’
‘Where do you think it came from? It looked as if it just . . . appeared, just above one of the buildings, and then dropped, smashing everything in its path, ending with itself. Do you recall those old pumps, the ones beneath Dreth Street in Malaz City? Withal found them in those tunnels he explored? Well, he took us on a tour—’
‘I remember, Skin.’
‘I’m reminded of those machines – all the gears and rods, the way the metal components all meshed so cleverly, ingeniously – I cannot imagine the mind that could think up such constructs.’
‘What is all this about, Skin?’
‘Nothing much. I just wonder if that thing is somehow connected with the arrival of the Dying God.’
‘Connected how?’
‘What if it was like a skykeep? A smaller version, obviously. What if the Dying God was inside it? Some accident brought it down, the locals pulled him out. What if that machine was a kind of throne?’
Nimander thought about that. A curious idea. Andarist had once explained that skykeeps – such as the one Anomander Rake claimed as his own – were not a creation of sorcery, and indeed the floating fortresses were held aloft through arcane manipulations of technology.
K’Chain Che’Malle, Kallor had said. Clearly, he had made the same connection as had Skintick.
‘Why would a god need a machine?’ Nimander asked.
‘How should I know? Anyway, it’s broken now.’
This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 01 May 2014 - 05:17 PM
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
#5
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Posted 01 May 2014 - 05:22 PM
SPOILERS. SPOILERS FOR Moi, RG, OST, FOD.
The relevant portion from OST:
The relevant portion of MoI:
1. The OST info is by Orchid. She was brought up in a monastery dedicated solely to Elder Night. Its pretty undeniable that they taught her some useful stuff. So their lore can be legitimate. Though she mentions a couple of possibilities as to how Rake got possession of it, she seems pretty certain that Rake and the Andii rode the Spawn out of KG and into Wu.
2. The MoI view is from the Seer of the Pannion Domin who was basically a Jaghut and he sourced his info from Gothos. I would be more inclined to take Gothos' word as he was an eyewitness during the Andii and the Edur invasion/migration. [Refer MT, RG prologue]
3. There is a reference in the MT prologue that Rake was present at the time of Scabandari's betrayal.
4.My main problem with the theory that Rake rode in on Moon's Spawn was that the Spawn gave him a lot of mobility. So why didn't he find the survivors of Silchas' group who later turned into the Bluerose?
5. Also in the RG prologue, Rake goes Dragon hunting in Emurlahn with Kilmandaros. Neither he nor the Elder Goddess made any reference to Moons Spawn then. Somehow I think he went Spawn-riding after that.
6. Additionally at no time is it explained as to how exactly a K'Chain Nahruk fortress managed to enter Kurald Galain.
8. Thus in conclusion I would have to side with Gothos in MoI
The relevant portion from OST:
Quote
Orchid nodded, took a drink of water. Her gaze lost its focus and she spoke slowly, as if parsing some text visible only to her. 'No one really knows the origins of what we call Moon's Spawn. It emerged from Elder Night, but what was it before then? Some argue it is the remnant of a K'Chain Che'Malle artefact that ventured into Kurald Galain and was taken by the Andii. Perhaps. Others suggest it was found abandoned and empty deep within the greatest depths of Utter Night. In either case, Anomander Rake brought it into this realm together with a legion of his race, the Tiste Andii, who followed him as he was the son of their sole deity, Mother Dark.'
The relevant portion of MoI:
Quote
'You think she fears your stupid soldiers? I forgive your ignorance, Toc the Younger. Dear Mother, it must be explained, has ancient ... terrors. Moon's Spawn. But let me be more precise, so as to prevent your further misunderstanding. Moon's Spawn is now home to the Tiste Andii and their dreaded Lord, but they are as lizards in an abandoned temple. They dwell unaware of the magnificence surrounding them. Dear Mother cannot be reached by such details, alas. She is little more than instinct these days, the poor, mindless thing.
'The Jaghut remember Moon's Spawn. I alone am in possession of the relevant scrolls from Gothos's Folly that whisper of the K'Chain Nah'rhuk – the Short-Tails, misbegotten children of the Matrons – who fashioned mechanisms that bound sorcery in ways long lost, who built vast, floating fortresses from which they launched devastating attacks upon their long-tailed kin.
'Oh, they lost in the end. Were destroyed. And but one floating fortress remained, damaged, abandoned to the winds. Gothos believed it had drifted north, to collide with the ice of a Jaghut winter, and was so frozen, trapped for millennia. Until found by the Tiste Andii Lord.
'The Jaghut remember Moon's Spawn. I alone am in possession of the relevant scrolls from Gothos's Folly that whisper of the K'Chain Nah'rhuk – the Short-Tails, misbegotten children of the Matrons – who fashioned mechanisms that bound sorcery in ways long lost, who built vast, floating fortresses from which they launched devastating attacks upon their long-tailed kin.
'Oh, they lost in the end. Were destroyed. And but one floating fortress remained, damaged, abandoned to the winds. Gothos believed it had drifted north, to collide with the ice of a Jaghut winter, and was so frozen, trapped for millennia. Until found by the Tiste Andii Lord.
1. The OST info is by Orchid. She was brought up in a monastery dedicated solely to Elder Night. Its pretty undeniable that they taught her some useful stuff. So their lore can be legitimate. Though she mentions a couple of possibilities as to how Rake got possession of it, she seems pretty certain that Rake and the Andii rode the Spawn out of KG and into Wu.
2. The MoI view is from the Seer of the Pannion Domin who was basically a Jaghut and he sourced his info from Gothos. I would be more inclined to take Gothos' word as he was an eyewitness during the Andii and the Edur invasion/migration. [Refer MT, RG prologue]
3. There is a reference in the MT prologue that Rake was present at the time of Scabandari's betrayal.
Quote
Mael’s eyes narrowed. ‘Why?’
‘Because I sense a distant awakening – but not, alas, as distant as you would like.’
‘Anomander Rake.’
Gothos nodded.
Mael shrugged. ‘Anticipated. Osserc moves to stand in his path.’
The Jaghut’s smile revealed his massive tusks. ‘Again?’
‘Because I sense a distant awakening – but not, alas, as distant as you would like.’
‘Anomander Rake.’
Gothos nodded.
Mael shrugged. ‘Anticipated. Osserc moves to stand in his path.’
The Jaghut’s smile revealed his massive tusks. ‘Again?’
4.My main problem with the theory that Rake rode in on Moon's Spawn was that the Spawn gave him a lot of mobility. So why didn't he find the survivors of Silchas' group who later turned into the Bluerose?
5. Also in the RG prologue, Rake goes Dragon hunting in Emurlahn with Kilmandaros. Neither he nor the Elder Goddess made any reference to Moons Spawn then. Somehow I think he went Spawn-riding after that.
6. Additionally at no time is it explained as to how exactly a K'Chain Nahruk fortress managed to enter Kurald Galain.
Spoiler
8. Thus in conclusion I would have to side with Gothos in MoI
This post has been edited by Andorion: 01 May 2014 - 05:25 PM
#6
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Posted 01 May 2014 - 05:23 PM
I did catch the qualifier, just felt that Antsy's "literal truth" part felt like ICE was pushing this as the actual history. Along with what I remember from later in the book (this is a re read for me). Though I havent read FoD yet. Figured it had been a while since I picked up the series and there was some new stuff already out and with the advent of Assail in the fall(hopefully).
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Posted 01 May 2014 - 05:52 PM
nacht, on 01 May 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:
Orchid is one heck of a confused girl and she confused the hell out me too.
She doesn't even know how old she is.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
#9
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Posted 01 May 2014 - 05:52 PM
Andorion, on 01 May 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:
...
4.My main problem with the theory that Rake rode in on Moon's Spawn was that the Spawn gave him a lot of mobility. So why didn't he find the survivors of Silchas' group who later turned into the Bluerose?
4.My main problem with the theory that Rake rode in on Moon's Spawn was that the Spawn gave him a lot of mobility. So why didn't he find the survivors of Silchas' group who later turned into the Bluerose?
They were hiding from the Edur, including Scabby. Anything that could conceal them from one draconic soletaken ascendent would likely hide them from another.
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#10
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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:17 PM
Abyss, on 01 May 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:
Andorion, on 01 May 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:
...
4.My main problem with the theory that Rake rode in on Moon's Spawn was that the Spawn gave him a lot of mobility. So why didn't he find the survivors of Silchas' group who later turned into the Bluerose?
4.My main problem with the theory that Rake rode in on Moon's Spawn was that the Spawn gave him a lot of mobility. So why didn't he find the survivors of Silchas' group who later turned into the Bluerose?
They were hiding from the Edur, including Scabby. Anything that could conceal them from one draconic soletaken ascendent would likely hide them from another.
Point taken.
One thing I forgot to mention, I don't think Rake just walked or rode out of KG into Wu. In the MT prologue, Gothos and Mael sense Rake 'awakening'. From what? What was he doing until then? Also Scabby thought that Rake had vanished and was out of the game, because nobody had seen him for a long time. My own theory is that this blank period was when Rake discovered Moons Spawn. he then saw the mess that Emurlahn was and decided to sort it out. After this task was completed I think, Rake had nothing left to do regarding the realms of the Tiste, with KG closing up, emurlahn shattered and Liosan sealed off. He then started Spawn-riding. He may even have stuffed his own share of Andii refugees in the Spawn while he was off Dragon hunting in Emurlahn.
Well that's just pure speculation, but I would like to hear any opinions regarding this
#11
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Posted 02 May 2014 - 12:37 AM
I think Anomander stayed away from the cult (in Andorra) and didn't particularly care about being worshiped.
I am not sure how mobile Moonspawn was. Anomander being a dragon soletaken personally did not need it.
I am not sure how mobile Moonspawn was. Anomander being a dragon soletaken personally did not need it.
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