[kuddukan]

I am 500 pages into TcG. I just read where Silchas leaves Ryadd and tells him that the Eleint are being unleashed. Kilava has been watching the gate to SD.
Why is the gate to Starvakd Demelain opening? It has to do with the failure of Kettle House but I cannot look into this without fear of spoilers for the rest if the book. Please help, thanks.

[worry]

It's several things I think. Menandore was the gatekeeper or whatever, and she died, to be replaced more or less by Kettle House, which is also failing. There's the failing of Gothos' ritual maybe. There's the plot to release the Otataral dragon, which almost begs for the Eleint to be present. There's the coalition between all the "bad guys". And there might be more reasons in the rest of TCG as well, so I'll stop there. I'm not guaranteeing all of these things are involved as I'm not sure everyone would agree on every point (though I personally believe they all have at least some part to play).

[kuddukan]

Thanks for the quick reply.
Lol these books are so dense I can't wait to finish the series where I can google and read to my hearts content and maybe have a clue about half the stuff that's been going on!!

[Aertheron]

 upworthywort, on 08 April 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

It's several things I think. Menandore was the gatekeeper or whatever, and she died, to be replaced more or less by Kettle House, which is also failing. There's the failing of Gothos' ritual maybe. There's the plot to release the Otataral dragon, which almost begs for the Eleint to be present. There's the coalition between all the "bad guys". And there might be more reasons in the rest of TCG as well, so I'll stop there. I'm not guaranteeing all of these things are involved as I'm not sure everyone would agree on every point (though I personally believe they all have at least some part to play).

Well you are right, the main thing is actually Menandore dying who was the "gate keeper" and then being replaced by Kettle House, which is also failing this is why they can come through now.

And honestly what reason does a race of Dragons that loves to destroy and kill need to come through to a "fresh" world where they can do just that.
The dragons blood is Chaos, they like to spread it, especially where there is Order.

[Inane Babble]

I think I must have missed something here, where was it stated that menandore had any role related to the gates?

From my understanding it was due to the failing of the ritual that kept the pocket realm alive. That was why the bonecaster tried to sacrifice herself to seal it completely. Was menandore purpousefrully degrading it for a period of time while she was alive or something?

Spoilers below for the rest of TCG below!

Spoiler

My take on it is that the realm is failing and the dragons will be unleashed, but this is too soon for K&D, so they organise the replacement, and the protection, required to keep the dragons in place until it the correct time.

[amphibian]

Menadore created the refugium, so upon her death, it started unraveling.

[Inane Babble]

 amphibian, on 28 July 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Menadore created the refugium, so upon her death, it started unraveling.

Must do a re-read for this, don't remember that at all. Anyone remember what part of the book this starts?

[amphibian]

 Inane Babble, on 28 July 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

 amphibian, on 28 July 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Menadore created the refugium, so upon her death, it started unraveling.

Must do a re-read for this, don't remember that at all. Anyone remember what part of the book this starts?

It's stuff I pieced together from Menandore's talks/actions in Midnight Tides, Reaper's Gale and the collapsing of the refugium in The Crippled God. I could be slightly off on the exact details, but what I think happened is that Menandore made the refugium, the Bentract Imass populated it and then later, Menandore made use of a bonecaster who volunteered to seal the Starvald Demelain gate and presumably had others who sealed the other eleven gates within. That allowed the Bentract Imass to stay so long and unchanging inside the refugium. The Azath House delayed the refugium's collapse and controlled access to all the gates. But it didn't last long either and gave way at a critical point.

The Malazan wiki suggests a slightly different interpretation than the one I take. http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Refugium

The wiki writers don't single out a creator or suggest that Menandore had anything to do with its purpose.

[Inane Babble]

 amphibian, on 28 July 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

 Inane Babble, on 28 July 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

 amphibian, on 28 July 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Menadore created the refugium, so upon her death, it started unraveling.

Must do a re-read for this, don't remember that at all. Anyone remember what part of the book this starts?

It's stuff I pieced together from Menandore's talks/actions in Midnight Tides, Reaper's Gale and the collapsing of the refugium in The Crippled God. I could be slightly off on the exact details, but what I think happened is that Menandore made the refugium, the Bentract Imass populated it and then later, Menandore made use of a bonecaster who volunteered to seal the Starvald Demelain gate and presumably had others who sealed the other eleven gates within. That allowed the Bentract Imass to stay so long and unchanging inside the refugium. The Azath House delayed the refugium's collapse and controlled access to all the gates. But it didn't last long either and gave way at a critical point.

The Malazan wiki suggests a slightly different interpretation than the one I take. http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Refugium

The wiki writers don't single out a creator or suggest that Menandore had anything to do with its purpose.

If you were willing to pull those passages together I'd be interested in seeing how you pieced together that menandore created it.

If I had to guess at the moment, Kilava + Hood (gothos?) compact would be my guess for creating the refugium. Hood has already displayed at this point a certain... precedent for almost this exact scenario.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

It's kind of long, but he is referring to Midnight Tides, Chapter 15, where Udinaas and Feather Witch talk to Rud ('Found' at the time) about the Bentract, Menandore and the Refugium.

Quote

‘Ulshun says his people came here with a bonecaster. It was a realm of storms. And beasts, countless beasts coming from those holes. They did not know what they were, but there was much fighting.’
The T’lan Imass warrior spoke again, at length.
‘Their bonecaster realized that the breaches must be sealed, and so she drew upon the power of stone and earth, then rose into her new, eternal body to stand before the wounds. And hold all with stillness. She stands there now and she shall stand there for all time.’
‘Yet her sacrifice has stranded the T’lan Imass here, hasn’t it?’ Udinaas asked.
‘Yes. But Ulshun and his people are content.’
‘Vi truh larpahal. Ranag, bhed, tenag tollarpahal.
Kul havra thelar. Kul.’
‘This land is a path, what we would call a road,’ Found said, frowning as he struggled to make sense of Ulshun’s words. ‘Herds migrate, back and forth. They seem to come from nowhere, but they always come.’
Because, like the T’lan Imass themselves, they are ghost memories.
‘The road leads here?’ Feather Witch asked in halting traders’ tongue.
‘Yes,’ Found said.
‘And comes from where?’
‘Epal en. Vol’sav, thelan.’
The boy sighed, crossed his arms in frustration. ‘Ulshun says we are in an ... overflow? Where the road comes from has bled out to claim the road itself. And surround this place. Beyond, there is ... nothing. Oblivion. Unrealized.’
‘So we are within a realm?’ Feather Witch asked. ‘Which Hold claims this place?’
‘A evbrox’l list Tev. Starvald Demelain Tev.’
‘Ulshun is pleased you understand Holds. He is bright-gem-eye. Pleased, and surprised. He calls this Hold Starvald Demelain.’

I think the confusion lies in Menadore's reaper's Gale conversation with The Errant (overheard by ST and Hood) where she keeos referring to her location as her "refuge". To me it's still a little unclear if she created that realm. She doesn't have much love for the Bentract and speaks of them as if they are nothing special in her conversations with Rud in RG. I'll have to do more reearch on this cuz its origin is somethign I've always wondered, yet kind of just took for granted.

[D'rek]

I think the Emroth explanation of there once being many Refugiums where the Imass preserved their old environment and continued to (at least pretend) to live rather than go off on geneocidal Jaghut wars. Eventually these would presumably have all ceased to be, except for this particular Refugium which stuck around because of Gothos' preservation ritual (from the MT prologue).

Early in MT Wither notes to Udinaas that there are hundreds (thousands?) of dormant Bentract T'lan Imass in the dust around them - they are dormant because these are the Imass who believe themselves to be living Imass in the Refugium. They've been pretending in the Refugium for so long they've wilfully forgotten that they are really still T'lan Imass floating around in the dust. They ignore the fact that the same herds of animals come passing through the Refugium every single year in a repeating imaginary cycle.

In RG, Gothos' ritual is unravelling and hence the Refugium is no longer being maintained in its imaginary state. Onrack and Hedge both note that while they may seem alive and mortal in the Refugium it isn't going to stay like that if they leave. But, when Silchas stabs Kettle with Gothos' Finnest and she becomes a new Azath House, the house roots itself in the Refugium and not only preserves the realm from expiring with Gothos' ritual, it also turns makes the illusion of mortality real for all of those within the Refugium, hence Hedge, Onrack and all the Bentract staying mortal and alive once they leave.


That's my interpretation. I can dig up some quotes if anyone is interested.

[Inane Babble]

 D, on 30 July 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I think the Emroth explanation of there once being many Refugiums where the Imass preserved their old environment and continued to (at least pretend) to live rather than go off on geneocidal Jaghut wars. Eventually these would presumably have all ceased to be, except for this particular Refugium which stuck around because of Gothos' preservation ritual (from the MT prologue).

Early in MT Wither notes to Udinaas that there are hundreds (thousands?) of dormant Bentract T'lan Imass in the dust around them - they are dormant because these are the Imass who believe themselves to be living Imass in the Refugium. They've been pretending in the Refugium for so long they've wilfully forgotten that they are really still T'lan Imass floating around in the dust. They ignore the fact that the same herds of animals come passing through the Refugium every single year in a repeating imaginary cycle.

In RG, Gothos' ritual is unravelling and hence the Refugium is no longer being maintained in its imaginary state. Onrack and Hedge both note that while they may seem alive and mortal in the Refugium it isn't going to stay like that if they leave. But, when Silchas stabs Kettle with Gothos' Finnest and she becomes a new Azath House, the house roots itself in the Refugium and not only preserves the realm from expiring with Gothos' ritual, it also turns makes the illusion of mortality real for all of those within the Refugium, hence Hedge, Onrack and all the Bentract staying mortal and alive once they leave.


That's my interpretation. I can dig up some quotes if anyone is interested.

I may have the sequence of events out of order in my head, but Hedge was able to bleed (and thus apparently mortal enough to NOT want to light up a sack full of cussers) before the Azath was planted wasn't he?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Yes, but he was in the Refugium at the time. They didn't leave until after Silchas undertook his task.

[Inane Babble]

 Spoilsport Stonny, on 30 July 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Yes, but he was in the Refugium at the time. They didn't leave until after Silchas undertook his task.

Wasn't the whole point of hedge getting punched in the face, was quick ben trying to point out that it wasn't a "just in the refugium" situation already?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Not really. That was more Hedge dealing with the fact that he thought he was a ghost, not corporeal...

RG, Ch. 20:

Quote

Rud’s eyes found Hedge again. ‘Tell me, soldier, do you bleed?’
‘What?’
‘You were dead, yes? A spirit willing itself the body it once possessed. But now you are here. Do you bleed?’
Bemused, Hedge looked to Quick Ben. ‘What’s he mean? Like a woman bleeds? I’m too ugly to be a woman, Quick.’
‘Forgive me,’ Rud Elalle said. ‘Onrack proclaims himself a T’lan Imass – yet here he stands, clothed in flesh and bearing the scars of your journey in this realm. And there have been other such guests. T’lan Imass – lone wanderers who have found this place – and they too are clothed in flesh.’
‘Other guests?’ Hedge asked. ‘You almost had one more of those, and she would have been a viper in your midst, Rud Elalle. For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t be trusting those other T’lan Imass, were I you.’
‘Ulshun Pral is a wise leader,’ Rud answered with another smile.
‘I’m still a ghost,’ Hedge said.
‘Are you?’
The sapper frowned. ‘Well, I ain’t gonna cut myself to find out one way or the other.’
‘Because you intend to leave this place, eventually. Of course, I understand.’

...and he wanted to be dead.

Quote

Hedge dragged the leather cap from his head and pulled at what was left of his hair. ‘This is what drives me mad! You! Things like that, just dropped out like a big stinking lump of – ow!’ He let go of his hair. ‘Hey, that actually hurt!’
‘Tug hard enough to bleed, Hedge?’
Hedge glared across at the wizard, who was now smirking. ‘Look, Quick, this would all be fine if I was planning on building a homestead here, planting a few tubers and raising emlava for their cuddly fur or something. But damn it, I’m just passing through, right? And when I come out the other side, well, I’m back being a ghost, and that’s something I need to get used to, and stay used to.’
Quick Ben shrugged. ‘Just stop pulling your hair and you’ll be fine, then.’

Then in Ch. 23:

Quote

And Ben Adaephon Delat straightened, then slowly raised his arms.
His scrawny arms. Hedge laughed.
The wizard glared back at him over a shoulder. ‘Will you stop that?’
‘Sorry! Had no idea you were so touchy.’
Quick Ben cursed, then turned and walked back to Hedge.
And punched him in the nose.
Stunned, eyes filling with tears, the sapper staggered back. Brought a hand to his face to stem the sudden gushing of blood. ‘You broke my damned nose!’
‘So I did,’ the wizard answered, shaking one hand. ‘And look, Hedge, you’re bleeding.’
‘Is it any surprise? Ow—’
‘Hedge. You are bleeding.’
I’m – oh, gods.
‘Get it now?’
And Quick turned and walked back, resumed his stance at the crest.
Hedge stared down at his bloody hand. ‘Shit!’

[tiam]

 amphibian, on 28 July 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Menadore created the refugium, so upon her death, it started unraveling.

I dont think she had anything to do with it. IMO wasnt it Gothos and a few others? Dreks seems like the best option OP