[Denul]

Also, as I go down my notes here, I wrote down that people seem to be reading a bit to much into the flavor. I really don't think the text by PS is meant to guide us in the game. I won't be reading it as such anyway.

[Denul]

Lock, on 13 March 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Ha yeah true enough. ANYTHING I say may dig my grave but I think I should lay out some perspective.


Rikkter named me nemesis. We are fated to do battle it seems!

2 Votes on me, going off my muddled debate on the scene posts, is fair but Rikkters vote landed me on even pegging with him. I mean its a bit bizarre to echo someone this closely on thread Day 1 right? We post in similar patterns and are garnering suspicion early game. Starting to feel like I'm being tagged here.

The case against Rikkter isn't all that flimsy. Rikkter is eager as am I, any redirect argument works just as easily in his case pinning blame onto me. Also he claimed he'd be out to get me initially and here we are! I spewed gibberish on thread in a muddle to get talking and I have to own up to that. It was Poorly done.

Still do not see how any of the things I listed make sense this early in an M&P game for anyone trying to hint anything. Speculating early game is always risky as it pins a spotlight on you but I thought it'd be the way to get on with things. Thats really the extent of it. I think votes on me are
a bit forced, making a meal of things. Atleast one of the people on my vote train is being opportunistic. Thats my 2 coins worth.

Underlined is mine. I think he may have a point here. I wouldn't be surprised if there were scum on his train at this point. especially as the day is winding down and the scum would really be wanting a lynch. Though, at that point it is only 4 people on the train, Kiliva, Kesso, Rikk (inno) and Tiam. 2 more votes quickly follow this post by Lock, I would throw them in the mix as well.

[Denul]

Ampelas, on 13 March 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

The original vote for Monok was based on a post about fish-based lubricant that was commented on by Denul. To single that post out, in the middle of a conversation about homosexual were-dolphins, seems a little like cherry-picking.

Likewise, the vote on Rikkter was based on being eager to start and on contributing off-topic discussions.

While I tend to believe Lock when he says he was just trying get conversation started, I also think he is our only realistic lynch target for day. Some of his speculation hinted at having knowledge that the rest of us don't, and seems be trying to make the game more difficult than it is by suggesting that there are multiple factions.

vote Lock

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

I mostly think Lock got his lore mixed up and didn't read the scenes carefully enough, but I agree that his response was less than ideal. None of the current targets are particularly convincing but I am willing to vote Lock to get a lynch, and with the modkill we still need 9 votes out of 15 to lynch, instead of 8 out of 15. So that's the burden of an extra vote that we wouldn't normally need.

For now I'm going to

Remove Vote
Vote Lock

here are the 2 votes directly after Locks post. At this point they have made Lock the only true lynch option with the amount of time remaining.

[Kilava]

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Korabas, on 14 March 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

Kilava, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Silchas has been modkilled for quoting his role pm.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Lock is dead. She was Picker, Dolmen Weeks and town.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Rikkter is dead. He was Sergeant Whiskeyjack, Macros and Town

3 town down in a day that is not the best of starts in history.

Assuming 4 scum it's now 9-4

Locks play makes sense now we know it was Dolmen, rookie mistake in a book-themed game talking about something not explicitly mentioned already. I don't see anything in the OP about how much CF information we get so I guess we won't know if we lynch town roled or not but I had WJ down as a role if anyone was.

Why in the world would you assume 4 scum? Usually ratio is 3 town to 1 scum. In a 16 player game, 3 scum would be plenty. You working with extra information?

You posted as I was just posting. I thought that was odd as well. I would have gotten to this later in my quote break down, but I was thinking it was odd. I assumed 3 scum for this game. I get WCS and all, but this is TDMI 4 and I would expect the usual ratios to be present. It does sound like he has some extra info.

And I was assuming a killer pair with a symp each. I was struggling to reconcile it with the OP etc mentioning only Sorry but thought a lone killer to be too much of a risk of a Day 1 town win.

You want to be technical? Okay, if I'm a lone killer I don't know who my symp(s) are but know I don't have a partner so 3 tops. If I have a partner I figure either a symp each or one symp between the two, 3 or 4. If I'm a symp I know who my master(s) are and figure I'm a lone symp or one of a pair, 3 or 4. So lots of 3s and 4s. Play to WCS, 4 scum.

By airing my assumption I can see what other people think of it, we can generate discussion from it. Well done. Now what do you think scum roles are?

The only way I can see a single killer not being very risky is with an inheritance mechanic like in Shins last game with a sleeper killer becoming active on the death of the initial killer. Of course I had Hairlock in my notes for that which was disproved by SRs implosion.

[Denul]

Finally, to the posts by Bek and Okaral.

While I didn't think there was much substance to the case by Bek, it did seem like he put in some effort. Whats more interesting to me is the reaction, and the OMGUS case by Okaros. That seems like a huge over reaction and subsequent case for a single case/vote. To me it felt like he was trying to stop any momentum from gaining and did this with a hyper aggressive counter case. This also pinged my scumdar. Certainly it's not scummy to counter a case on yourself, especially if you know you are inno, but the tone and way in which he presented his own case made Okaros come off as defensive in my eyes.

[Korabas]

Could be a single killer with 2 symps, maybe?

I'd say it's more likely paired killers (perhaps Sorry & Cotillion working together, given the first is possessed by the second in the books?) with 1 symp (I dunno, maybe Lorne? She's working to destroy the BridgeBurners in the books).

[Okaros]

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

Silchas wasn't even low-posting, he's still sitting one post behind Rikkter for most posts this game so far. Makes no fucking sense.

Tiamatha, on 13 March 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

Well now I have to ask the question. Do we want to potentially lynch a towny on top of losing one town member today. Putting us down a probable 3 town players going into the start of day 2. Or do we want to eat the modkill and try to figure out connections with out a day 1 lynch?

Interesting question, but with 16 players, we should have a lot of room. Losing 3 players on night 1 instead of 2 players (assuming this plays like a normal day 1 and they're all town) isn't that big of a difference in a town vs. scum game with this many players. And unfortunately, the lynch train is usually where we get most of the information we need to continue analyzing interactions on thread, and Silchas has robbed us of that. Without a lynch, I don't see how we have much more info on day 2 than we already do now besides an NK.

While I don't completely disagree with this post, I think there is a pretty big difference between losing 3 and losing 2 players. Not only do we get 0 information from the extra death, it throws us off on the odd/even at the end of the game. We now have no choice who we have going in to the final 3 (if it gets that far.) granted thats far down the road, and may not come into play, but the more information we can control, the better. I do agree though that we should have gone for a lynch. That is where we get most of our information and am a little suspicious of Tiam for even suggesting that we don't still try to lynch even with a modkill. When given the choice between lynch and non lynch I will always chose the lynch. FWIW I would have voted Lock had I been around and we needed a vote.

My point was really that we had been forced to choose between losing 2 players and not getting a lynch, or losing 3 players and getting a lynch - the latter option is preferable by a wide margin and therefore the difference between 2 or 3 losses is not as relevant as it could be.

I also thought Tiam's suggestion of a no-lynch was suspicious but had nothing else to go on at the moment and so I put it on the backburner at the time.

[Korabas]

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Finally, to the posts by Bek and Okaral.

While I didn't think there was much substance to the case by Bek, it did seem like he put in some effort. Whats more interesting to me is the reaction, and the OMGUS case by Okaros. That seems like a huge over reaction and subsequent case for a single case/vote. To me it felt like he was trying to stop any momentum from gaining and did this with a hyper aggressive counter case. This also pinged my scumdar. Certainly it's not scummy to counter a case on yourself, especially if you know you are inno, but the tone and way in which he presented his own case made Okaros come off as defensive in my eyes.

Yeah, that's why I'm waffling over whether I like his case or not.


I mean, his case against Bek DOES have merit, but, as you said, he put it out there in a super agressive way. Not sure what to make of it.

[Denul]

Kilava, on 14 March 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Korabas, on 14 March 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

Kilava, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Silchas has been modkilled for quoting his role pm.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Lock is dead. She was Picker, Dolmen Weeks and town.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Rikkter is dead. He was Sergeant Whiskeyjack, Macros and Town

3 town down in a day that is not the best of starts in history.

Assuming 4 scum it's now 9-4

Locks play makes sense now we know it was Dolmen, rookie mistake in a book-themed game talking about something not explicitly mentioned already. I don't see anything in the OP about how much CF information we get so I guess we won't know if we lynch town roled or not but I had WJ down as a role if anyone was.

Why in the world would you assume 4 scum? Usually ratio is 3 town to 1 scum. In a 16 player game, 3 scum would be plenty. You working with extra information?

You posted as I was just posting. I thought that was odd as well. I would have gotten to this later in my quote break down, but I was thinking it was odd. I assumed 3 scum for this game. I get WCS and all, but this is TDMI 4 and I would expect the usual ratios to be present. It does sound like he has some extra info.

And I was assuming a killer pair with a symp each. I was struggling to reconcile it with the OP etc mentioning only Sorry but thought a lone killer to be too much of a risk of a Day 1 town win.

You want to be technical? Okay, if I'm a lone killer I don't know who my symp(s) are but know I don't have a partner so 3 tops. If I have a partner I figure either a symp each or one symp between the two, 3 or 4. If I'm a symp I know who my master(s) are and figure I'm a lone symp or one of a pair, 3 or 4. So lots of 3s and 4s. Play to WCS, 4 scum.

By airing my assumption I can see what other people think of it, we can generate discussion from it. Well done. Now what do you think scum roles are?

The only way I can see a single killer not being very risky is with an inheritance mechanic like in Shins last game with a sleeper killer becoming active on the death of the initial killer. Of course I had Hairlock in my notes for that which was disproved by SRs implosion.

I could see an inheritence mechanic in play and it would make sense given the numbers. That or 2 killers and a single symp perhaps..which I think is more likely. But again, I go back to my belief that we are reading to much into to flavor being presented by PS. I think we are limiting ourselves if we don't explore outside of what has been written in scenes. On a side note, this was a constructive response to a little information prodding I had done. It makes me less suspicious of Kilava. Whereas if Kilava had blown up and come at me with a 500 word counter case and voted me... I would have been much more suspicious of her. Hence my reasons for questioning Okaros in my above posts.

[Okaros]

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Finally, to the posts by Bek and Okaral.

While I didn't think there was much substance to the case by Bek, it did seem like he put in some effort. Whats more interesting to me is the reaction, and the OMGUS case by Okaros. That seems like a huge over reaction and subsequent case for a single case/vote. To me it felt like he was trying to stop any momentum from gaining and did this with a hyper aggressive counter case. This also pinged my scumdar. Certainly it's not scummy to counter a case on yourself, especially if you know you are inno, but the tone and way in which he presented his own case made Okaros come off as defensive in my eyes.

I was very pointed because I genuinely think that Bek's half-assed case appears to be a hidden treasure trove of really scummy suggestions that a town player would not make. My vote for Silchas yesterday was reasoned and styled in the same way, cause that's how I make cases, so take it or leave it. I knew a relatively quick reply to Bek would make me seem defensive, but if you actually look at the merits of what he said and I responded to, the content clears up a lot, I believe.

Korabas, on 14 March 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Could be a single killer with 2 symps, maybe?

I'd say it's more likely paired killers (perhaps Sorry & Cotillion working together, given the first is possessed by the second in the books?) with 1 symp (I dunno, maybe Lorne? She's working to destroy the BridgeBurners in the books).

Interesting - I also had the thought that perhaps Sorry and Cotillion were separate characters and working together as the killer pair. No idea how likely this is but it was one of the first things to cross my mind when the game started.

[Okaros]

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

<snip>

I could see an inheritence mechanic in play and it would make sense given the numbers. That or 2 killers and a single symp perhaps..which I think is more likely. But again, I go back to my belief that we are reading to much into to flavor being presented by PS. I think we are limiting ourselves if we don't explore outside of what has been written in scenes. On a side note, this was a constructive response to a little information prodding I had done. It makes me less suspicious of Kilava. Whereas if Kilava had blown up and come at me with a 500 word counter case and voted me... I would have been much more suspicious of her. Hence my reasons for questioning Okaros in my above posts.

I don't want to harp on this forever, but I do want to clarify that asking one question - "Do you have extra information [because of this post I'm quoting]?" - is quite different from a semi-long case laid out with very few supporting quotes from the original post that is the basis of the case. Short prodding for information would not provoke a 500-word response; a 300-word case along with a vote might, though.

[Ampelas]

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

Lock, on 13 March 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Ha yeah true enough. ANYTHING I say may dig my grave but I think I should lay out some perspective.


Rikkter named me nemesis. We are fated to do battle it seems!

2 Votes on me, going off my muddled debate on the scene posts, is fair but Rikkters vote landed me on even pegging with him. I mean its a bit bizarre to echo someone this closely on thread Day 1 right? We post in similar patterns and are garnering suspicion early game. Starting to feel like I'm being tagged here.

The case against Rikkter isn't all that flimsy. Rikkter is eager as am I, any redirect argument works just as easily in his case pinning blame onto me. Also he claimed he'd be out to get me initially and here we are! I spewed gibberish on thread in a muddle to get talking and I have to own up to that. It was Poorly done.

Still do not see how any of the things I listed make sense this early in an M&P game for anyone trying to hint anything. Speculating early game is always risky as it pins a spotlight on you but I thought it'd be the way to get on with things. Thats really the extent of it. I think votes on me are
a bit forced, making a meal of things. Atleast one of the people on my vote train is being opportunistic. Thats my 2 coins worth.

Underlined is mine. I think he may have a point here. I wouldn't be surprised if there were scum on his train at this point. especially as the day is winding down and the scum would really be wanting a lynch. Though, at that point it is only 4 people on the train, Kiliva, Kesso, Rikk (inno) and Tiam. 2 more votes quickly follow this post by Lock, I would throw them in the mix as well.

I'm not saying that there weren't scum players on Lock's train, but scum aren't the only ones who want lynches. It was getting towards the end of the day, and most of us who were around wanted the lynch, because we needed the information from it.

[Kessobahn]

Korabas, on 14 March 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Finally, to the posts by Bek and Okaral.

While I didn't think there was much substance to the case by Bek, it did seem like he put in some effort. Whats more interesting to me is the reaction, and the OMGUS case by Okaros. That seems like a huge over reaction and subsequent case for a single case/vote. To me it felt like he was trying to stop any momentum from gaining and did this with a hyper aggressive counter case. This also pinged my scumdar. Certainly it's not scummy to counter a case on yourself, especially if you know you are inno, but the tone and way in which he presented his own case made Okaros come off as defensive in my eyes.

Yeah, that's why I'm waffling over whether I like his case or not.


I mean, his case against Bek DOES have merit, but, as you said, he put it out there in a super agressive way. Not sure what to make of it.

Personally, I feel like either A) Bek is scum trying to seem helpful but with a lot of holes in his case, and Okaros is legitimately trying to counter it and show that Bek is scummy due to his case, Okaros is jumpy scum, or C) two overeager, aggressive townies chomping at the bit to catch scum. I'm honestly not sure which one to go with yet, after seeing each of these three possibilities fulfilled in other games (See Espers for A).

[Kessobahn]

Ampelas, on 14 March 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

Lock, on 13 March 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Ha yeah true enough. ANYTHING I say may dig my grave but I think I should lay out some perspective.


Rikkter named me nemesis. We are fated to do battle it seems!

2 Votes on me, going off my muddled debate on the scene posts, is fair but Rikkters vote landed me on even pegging with him. I mean its a bit bizarre to echo someone this closely on thread Day 1 right? We post in similar patterns and are garnering suspicion early game. Starting to feel like I'm being tagged here.

The case against Rikkter isn't all that flimsy. Rikkter is eager as am I, any redirect argument works just as easily in his case pinning blame onto me. Also he claimed he'd be out to get me initially and here we are! I spewed gibberish on thread in a muddle to get talking and I have to own up to that. It was Poorly done.

Still do not see how any of the things I listed make sense this early in an M&P game for anyone trying to hint anything. Speculating early game is always risky as it pins a spotlight on you but I thought it'd be the way to get on with things. Thats really the extent of it. I think votes on me are
a bit forced, making a meal of things. Atleast one of the people on my vote train is being opportunistic. Thats my 2 coins worth.

Underlined is mine. I think he may have a point here. I wouldn't be surprised if there were scum on his train at this point. especially as the day is winding down and the scum would really be wanting a lynch. Though, at that point it is only 4 people on the train, Kiliva, Kesso, Rikk (inno) and Tiam. 2 more votes quickly follow this post by Lock, I would throw them in the mix as well.

I'm not saying that there weren't scum players on Lock's train, but scum aren't the only ones who want lynches. It was getting towards the end of the day, and most of us who were around wanted the lynch, because we needed the information from it.

Totally agree with you, Amp. Just reading over how the voting happened, there wasn't any swing, and it just kind of seemed like a resigned piling on of votes to get a lynch, as opposed to scum quickly building up a train in the final minutes to get a lynch. Of course, as you say, there could be scum on that train, but there's nothing to suggest that its any more likely than your average lynch train.

[Ampelas]

Denul's recent upsurge in posting has me twitching. Going from one of the lowest posters to one of the highest in a few hours looks like serious post padding. He says a lot, but very little of it is actually helpful and some of it is contradictory.

Here, he suggests that it's suspicious that people jumped on Lock's train so quickly, seemingly ignoring the fact that we had so little time left, and very few options, that that was the only way to get a lynch. Also, I said it earlier but I'll say it again, it's not only scum that want a lynch! (This becomes relevant in a moment).

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

Lock, on 13 March 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Ha yeah true enough. ANYTHING I say may dig my grave but I think I should lay out some perspective.


Rikkter named me nemesis. We are fated to do battle it seems!

2 Votes on me, going off my muddled debate on the scene posts, is fair but Rikkters vote landed me on even pegging with him. I mean its a bit bizarre to echo someone this closely on thread Day 1 right? We post in similar patterns and are garnering suspicion early game. Starting to feel like I'm being tagged here.

The case against Rikkter isn't all that flimsy. Rikkter is eager as am I, any redirect argument works just as easily in his case pinning blame onto me. Also he claimed he'd be out to get me initially and here we are! I spewed gibberish on thread in a muddle to get talking and I have to own up to that. It was Poorly done.

Still do not see how any of the things I listed make sense this early in an M&P game for anyone trying to hint anything. Speculating early game is always risky as it pins a spotlight on you but I thought it'd be the way to get on with things. Thats really the extent of it. I think votes on me are
a bit forced, making a meal of things. Atleast one of the people on my vote train is being opportunistic. Thats my 2 coins worth.

Underlined is mine. I think he may have a point here. I wouldn't be surprised if there were scum on his train at this point. especially as the day is winding down and the scum would really be wanting a lynch. Though, at that point it is only 4 people on the train, Kiliva, Kesso, Rikk (inno) and Tiam. 2 more votes quickly follow this post by Lock, I would throw them in the mix as well.

Here he points out the two who made the lynch inevitable, again glossing over the fact that we needed a lynch and there were no other realistic options.

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Ampelas, on 13 March 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

The original vote for Monok was based on a post about fish-based lubricant that was commented on by Denul. To single that post out, in the middle of a conversation about homosexual were-dolphins, seems a little like cherry-picking.

Likewise, the vote on Rikkter was based on being eager to start and on contributing off-topic discussions.

While I tend to believe Lock when he says he was just trying get conversation started, I also think he is our only realistic lynch target for day. Some of his speculation hinted at having knowledge that the rest of us don't, and seems be trying to make the game more difficult than it is by suggesting that there are multiple factions.

vote Lock

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

I mostly think Lock got his lore mixed up and didn't read the scenes carefully enough, but I agree that his response was less than ideal. None of the current targets are particularly convincing but I am willing to vote Lock to get a lynch, and with the modkill we still need 9 votes out of 15 to lynch, instead of 8 out of 15. So that's the burden of an extra vote that we wouldn't normally need.

For now I'm going to

Remove Vote
Vote Lock

here are the 2 votes directly after Locks post. At this point they have made Lock the only true lynch option with the amount of time remaining.

But then here, he agrees with the need for a lynch (underlining is mine):

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

[snip]

While I don't completely disagree with this post, I think there is a pretty big difference between losing 3 and losing 2 players. Not only do we get 0 information from the extra death, it throws us off on the odd/even at the end of the game. We now have no choice who we have going in to the final 3 (if it gets that far.) granted thats far down the road, and may not come into play, but the more information we can control, the better. I do agree though that we should have gone for a lynch. That is where we get most of our information and am a little suspicious of Tiam for even suggesting that we don't still try to lynch even with a modkill. When given the choice between lynch and non lynch I will always chose the lynch. FWIW I would have voted Lock had I been around and we needed a vote.

So... scum want a lynch, but Denul also wanted a lynch? He's cherry-picked a couple of posts from the lynch train, without including any of the context of the lynch, and suggested they are scummy, in an attempt to look helpful.

He also picks a couple of posts that "ping his scumdar", but again, doesn't do much about them, there is no case, there isn't any cohesion, and he doesn't follow anything up.

It may just be because the post below is aimed at me, but this really irritated me:

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Ampelas, on 13 March 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

Interesting. Silchas' comment was tasteless, but it's nothing worse than we've heard from Maccy or Vengeance when they get on a roll.

However, I also object to the pity self-vote, and I'm prepared to vote Silchas for the lynch.

"I am prepared to vote for..." in other words, "I'll vote for whoever has the most votes"

This pinged my scumdar. If you are voting just to get a lynch, say so. This sounds like he is just waiting around and will vote for whoever without actually saying that.

I literally said "I'll vote for the lynch". Not for whoever has the most votes, but for Silchas, if it was required. Again, a quote taken out of context, paraphrased to look scummy when the original was nothing of the kind, and then left with no further comment or follow-up.

Denul is trying very hard to look helpful while being nothing of the sort.

Vote Denul.

[Okaros]

Quick comment -

Amp, something has been bugging me about Denul's return, and I think you hit it pretty close. There were a lot of facets of the Lock lynch that Denul almost deliberately skipped over...for instance, when he quoted our posts as the last two that "made the lynch inevitable", I had made two posts in quick succession and he only quoted the second with the vote. In the first I said that Lock was at L-4 and we had around 2 hours left. It was 90 minutes before L-3, and Okral showed up just in time to hammer with only 20 minutes left on the clock. We BARELY got the votes for a lynch - there was no speed lynch or rush at all, we were hurting for people to show up and vote. He also didn't mention that voting was more necessary than before due to the modkill and the extra vote required to achieve "majority", since the modkill altered that. So I think his analysis of the lynch train is poor and shows that he may be trying to steer the thread a bit while leaving a lot of things out.

I want to hear from both Denul and Bek, in regards to Amp's case and mine, respectively.

Incidentally, this is an example of why I think Bek is full of shit when he said that the lynch train wouldn't be useful on day 2. Even if we were somehow unable to gather info directly from the votes and how/when they were made, a lot can be gathered by seeing someone ELSE analyze the lynch train, as I think is happening here with Denul.

[Bek Okhan]

Okaros, on 14 March 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

Quick comment -

Amp, something has been bugging me about Denul's return, and I think you hit it pretty close. There were a lot of facets of the Lock lynch that Denul almost deliberately skipped over...for instance, when he quoted our posts as the last two that "made the lynch inevitable", I had made two posts in quick succession and he only quoted the second with the vote. In the first I said that Lock was at L-4 and we had around 2 hours left. It was 90 minutes before L-3, and Okral showed up just in time to hammer with only 20 minutes left on the clock. We BARELY got the votes for a lynch - there was no speed lynch or rush at all, we were hurting for people to show up and vote. He also didn't mention that voting was more necessary than before due to the modkill and the extra vote required to achieve "majority", since the modkill altered that. So I think his analysis of the lynch train is poor and shows that he may be trying to steer the thread a bit while leaving a lot of things out.

I want to hear from both Denul and Bek, in regards to Amp's case and mine, respectively.

Incidentally, this is an example of why I think Bek is full of shit when he said that the lynch train wouldn't be useful on day 2. Even if we were somehow unable to gather info directly from the votes and how/when they were made, a lot can be gathered by seeing someone ELSE analyze the lynch train, as I think is happening here with Denul.

I never said anything about a day 2 lynch being not useful. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Also, the fact I didn't contribute much day 1 doesn't exclude me from being contributing or useful elsewhere/elsewhen, as you try to bring across by quoting my day 1 posts.
Frankly, you try and diffuse my post by counter-pointing a finger without ever trying to figure out why scum (just in case I am one) would make such an accusation and what the gain would be.

That, to me, means that you're hiding something. I am happy to go down, come up town and have everyone asking why and how I got such a rise out of you: where there is smoke, there is fire.

also, pro-tip: if you want to diffuse a case by being disparaging: less is more. You're overdoing it big time.

And now, I am off to bed.

[Denul]

Well, I am damned if I do damned if I don't. I had barely participated due to RL. 2 Posts in the first day and was a non factor. I come on today and now I am post padding. I post when I can, and I post as much as I can because thats what helps in end game. I hate low posters that are involved in end game who haven't posted and we have nothing to go on. So I like to make sure I get content out in the limited time I can post so that I am never that guy. Take that how you will.

Regarding Amp's "case". It has the same ring that Okaros' case has. It's an over reaction to some pressure. His points are off. regardless.

Ampelas, on 14 March 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

Denul's recent upsurge in posting has me twitching. Going from one of the lowest posters to one of the highest in a few hours looks like serious post padding. He says a lot, but very little of it is actually helpful and some of it is contradictory.

Here, he suggests that it's suspicious that people jumped on Lock's train so quickly, seemingly ignoring the fact that we had so little time left, and very few options, that that was the only way to get a lynch. Also, I said it earlier but I'll say it again, it's not only scum that want a lynch! (This becomes relevant in a moment).

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

Lock, on 13 March 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Ha yeah true enough. ANYTHING I say may dig my grave but I think I should lay out some perspective.


Rikkter named me nemesis. We are fated to do battle it seems!

2 Votes on me, going off my muddled debate on the scene posts, is fair but Rikkters vote landed me on even pegging with him. I mean its a bit bizarre to echo someone this closely on thread Day 1 right? We post in similar patterns and are garnering suspicion early game. Starting to feel like I'm being tagged here.

The case against Rikkter isn't all that flimsy. Rikkter is eager as am I, any redirect argument works just as easily in his case pinning blame onto me. Also he claimed he'd be out to get me initially and here we are! I spewed gibberish on thread in a muddle to get talking and I have to own up to that. It was Poorly done.

Still do not see how any of the things I listed make sense this early in an M&P game for anyone trying to hint anything. Speculating early game is always risky as it pins a spotlight on you but I thought it'd be the way to get on with things. Thats really the extent of it. I think votes on me are
a bit forced, making a meal of things. Atleast one of the people on my vote train is being opportunistic. Thats my 2 coins worth.

Underlined is mine. I think he may have a point here. I wouldn't be surprised if there were scum on his train at this point. especially as the day is winding down and the scum would really be wanting a lynch. Though, at that point it is only 4 people on the train, Kiliva, Kesso, Rikk (inno) and Tiam. 2 more votes quickly follow this post by Lock, I would throw them in the mix as well.

Here he points out the two who made the lynch inevitable, again glossing over the fact that we needed a lynch and there were no other realistic options. I didn't gloss over it. I stated a fact. You 2 jumping on the train made Lock's lynch inevitable. Thats it. Defensive much? If you 2 would have jumped on my train, it would have made my lynch inevitable. I don't see how pointing this out is scummy. I think it's something that should be noted by everyone. DOes it mean you are scum? No, but I have seen my fair share of scum that tilt trains in order to get a lynch.

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Ampelas, on 13 March 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

The original vote for Monok was based on a post about fish-based lubricant that was commented on by Denul. To single that post out, in the middle of a conversation about homosexual were-dolphins, seems a little like cherry-picking.

Likewise, the vote on Rikkter was based on being eager to start and on contributing off-topic discussions.

While I tend to believe Lock when he says he was just trying get conversation started, I also think he is our only realistic lynch target for day. Some of his speculation hinted at having knowledge that the rest of us don't, and seems be trying to make the game more difficult than it is by suggesting that there are multiple factions.

vote Lock

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

I mostly think Lock got his lore mixed up and didn't read the scenes carefully enough, but I agree that his response was less than ideal. None of the current targets are particularly convincing but I am willing to vote Lock to get a lynch, and with the modkill we still need 9 votes out of 15 to lynch, instead of 8 out of 15. So that's the burden of an extra vote that we wouldn't normally need.

For now I'm going to

Remove Vote
Vote Lock

here are the 2 votes directly after Locks post. At this point they have made Lock the only true lynch option with the amount of time remaining.

But then here, he agrees with the need for a lynch (underlining is mine):

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

[snip]

While I don't completely disagree with this post, I think there is a pretty big difference between losing 3 and losing 2 players. Not only do we get 0 information from the extra death, it throws us off on the odd/even at the end of the game. We now have no choice who we have going in to the final 3 (if it gets that far.) granted thats far down the road, and may not come into play, but the more information we can control, the better. I do agree though that we should have gone for a lynch. That is where we get most of our information and am a little suspicious of Tiam for even suggesting that we don't still try to lynch even with a modkill. When given the choice between lynch and non lynch I will always chose the lynch. FWIW I would have voted Lock had I been around and we needed a vote.

So... scum want a lynch, but Denul also wanted a lynch? He's cherry-picked a couple of posts from the lynch train, without including any of the context of the lynch, and suggested they are scummy, in an attempt to look helpful. I am trying to be helpful. I am trying to point out the people that pushed the lynch from possible to probable. I never even said you were scum. More defensiveness from you. Also, scum wanting a lynch, and me wanting a lynch are not mutually exclusive. I stated that I believe that lynching is our best opportunity for gaining information. Where people fall on a lynch train is good information. Why does this ruffle your feathers so much? Just because it's you? I'm not making a case here. I am pointing out something that happened so those that want the information can use it.

He also picks a couple of posts that "ping his scumdar", but again, doesn't do much about them, there is no case, there isn't any cohesion, and he doesn't follow anything up. All I had time to do, and all I said I was going to do was read up on the thread and post my thoughts. I didn't say I was going to make a case. I think it's clear who I was angling towards, but I didn't have enough time, or a feel good enough about the game to make a concrete case. Have you never had posts that you thought were scummy, but couldn't back up with a case? Isn't better that I put that out there rather than keep it to myself until I am sure? Brother, there is no sure in Mafia, and usually when you are sure, you are wrong.

It may just be because the post below is aimed at me, but this really irritated me:

Denul, on 14 March 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Ampelas, on 13 March 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

Interesting. Silchas' comment was tasteless, but it's nothing worse than we've heard from Maccy or Vengeance when they get on a roll.

However, I also object to the pity self-vote, and I'm prepared to vote Silchas for the lynch.

"I am prepared to vote for..." in other words, "I'll vote for whoever has the most votes"

This pinged my scumdar. If you are voting just to get a lynch, say so. This sounds like he is just waiting around and will vote for whoever without actually saying that.

I literally said "I'll vote for the lynch". Not for whoever has the most votes, but for Silchas, if it was required. Again, a quote taken out of context, paraphrased to look scummy when the original was nothing of the kind, and then left with no further comment or follow-up.

Denul is trying very hard to look helpful while being nothing of the sort. How was it taken out of context? You wrote it. I posted the entire quote and stated why I thought it was scummy. You are doing to me the exact same thing you claim I am doing to you, with a lot more supposition.

Vote Denul.

We have all weekend to vote so am not dropping one yet. I won't be around much this weekend, but will be around Monday.

In response to Okaros' question, I definitely think your case on Bek was thought out and has some good points, but like I said, the way in which you came out guns blazing to the slightest bit of pressure is what has my hackles up. But like Kesso said, it could also be 2 over eager inno's berating each other. I'd like to see Bek's response to your case.

[Denul]

Okaros, on 14 March 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

Quick comment -

Amp, something has been bugging me about Denul's return, and I think you hit it pretty close. There were a lot of facets of the Lock lynch that Denul almost deliberately skipped over...for instance, when he quoted our posts as the last two that "made the lynch inevitable", I had made two posts in quick succession and he only quoted the second with the vote. In the first I said that Lock was at L-4 and we had around 2 hours left. It was 90 minutes before L-3, and Okral showed up just in time to hammer with only 20 minutes left on the clock. We BARELY got the votes for a lynch - there was no speed lynch or rush at all, we were hurting for people to show up and vote. He also didn't mention that voting was more necessary than before due to the modkill and the extra vote required to achieve "majority", since the modkill altered that. So I think his analysis of the lynch train is poor and shows that he may be trying to steer the thread a bit while leaving a lot of things out.

I want to hear from both Denul and Bek, in regards to Amp's case and mine, respectively.

Incidentally, this is an example of why I think Bek is full of shit when he said that the lynch train wouldn't be useful on day 2. Even if we were somehow unable to gather info directly from the votes and how/when they were made, a lot can be gathered by seeing someone ELSE analyze the lynch train, as I think is happening here with Denul.

I'll comment on this one last time before I am out for the weekend. All I was doing was pointing out who the swing votes were. You and amp have your panties in a bunch because you were the 2. Do I think you are both scum? Probably not, as that would be really bad and overtly obvious play. In and of itself, it means nothing, after all, every lynch, good or bad has a swing point, but it's these kinds of things you can tie together with other things to come up with a good case. As amp pointed out, and as I posted on thread, if I was around I would have been on the train to get a lynch, but the fact remains, we lynched an inno and you 2 were the swing votes.

[Okaros]

Bek Okhan, on 14 March 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

Okaros, on 14 March 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

Quick comment -

Amp, something has been bugging me about Denul's return, and I think you hit it pretty close. There were a lot of facets of the Lock lynch that Denul almost deliberately skipped over...for instance, when he quoted our posts as the last two that "made the lynch inevitable", I had made two posts in quick succession and he only quoted the second with the vote. In the first I said that Lock was at L-4 and we had around 2 hours left. It was 90 minutes before L-3, and Okral showed up just in time to hammer with only 20 minutes left on the clock. We BARELY got the votes for a lynch - there was no speed lynch or rush at all, we were hurting for people to show up and vote. He also didn't mention that voting was more necessary than before due to the modkill and the extra vote required to achieve "majority", since the modkill altered that. So I think his analysis of the lynch train is poor and shows that he may be trying to steer the thread a bit while leaving a lot of things out.

I want to hear from both Denul and Bek, in regards to Amp's case and mine, respectively.

Incidentally, this is an example of why I think Bek is full of shit when he said that the lynch train wouldn't be useful on day 2. Even if we were somehow unable to gather info directly from the votes and how/when they were made, a lot can be gathered by seeing someone ELSE analyze the lynch train, as I think is happening here with Denul.

I never said anything about a day 2 lynch being not useful. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Whoops, looks like your reading comprehension failed you again. I said:

Okaros, on 14 March 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

Incidentally, this is an example of why I think Bek is full of shit when he said that the lynch train wouldn't be useful on day 2. Even if we were somehow unable to gather info directly from the votes and how/when they were made, a lot can be gathered by seeing someone ELSE analyze the lynch train, as I think is happening here with Denul.

Obviously I can only be referring to the day 1 lynch train in this sentence, as nothing else could possibly make logical sense. And to that, you did say it would not be useful, several times....

Bek Okhan, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Copy paste of parts of Okaros' PM:

Quote

He should know it's always better to lynch an unknown than a confirmed RI. Yes, you might hit another townie of course, but this is expected, especially on day 1. What we do gain from the lynch is train information and new info to analyze on day 2.

Meh. You only get the information if there's something to analyse from it. A day 1 train, which is "expected to lynch a townie" to quote you, seldom gives info unless there's lots of vote switching and/or one can decide on (a) pivot(s) that swung the lynch. There wasn't really any here.

You judge each situation as it is with past experience in mind, but there's no overarching principle that says each lynch train will point to the killers. In this day 1 setting, with talk about lubricant being the most interesting thing happening, also leading to a chase of the same individual (Denul) on day 2, a lynch on SR would have been a decent outcome.
Basically, you're talking out of your ass here.

You tried to equivocate with nice nuggets like "You judge each situation as it is with past experience in mind." Good job. However, you did bold and italicize my quote, "What we do gain from the lynch is train information and new info to analyze on day 2." And then you said I was talking out of my ass. And also that the day 1 lynch train "seldom gives info." And of course, in your eyes, "there wasn't really any [info] here".

Reading comprehension, amirite?

Bek Okhan, on 14 March 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

Also, the fact I didn't contribute much day 1 doesn't exclude me from being contributing or useful elsewhere/elsewhen, as you try to bring across by quoting my day 1 posts.
Frankly, you try and diffuse my post by counter-pointing a finger without ever trying to figure out why scum (just in case I am one) would make such an accusation and what the gain would be.

That, to me, means that you're hiding something. I am happy to go down, come up town and have everyone asking why and how I got such a rise out of you: where there is smoke, there is fire.

also, pro-tip: if you want to diffuse a case by being disparaging: less is more. You're overdoing it big time.

And now, I am off to bed.

I wasn't diffusing the case on me - I was using it against you, to build my own case. You fucked up numerous times in that post, as I've extensively gone over, and you aren't going to brush it off with a "I'm off to bed after not posting all day again and refusing to explain!" If you're town, explaining can only help you. It'd be great if you were town, actually, because then we could move on to trying to find real scum. But so far you aren't helping us do that - and you aren't getting off the hook so easily.