[Eloth]

Hmm, Lock was 'town' and Rikkter was 'RI'. Does that mean Lock was roled, or am I reading too much into the inconsistency?


Edit: changed 'to' to 'too'. Two.

This post has been edited by Eloth: 13 March 2014 - 11:47 PM

[Path-Shaper]

It is day two: 35 hours 59 minutes until night time.

13 players still alive; Alkend, Ampelas, Bek Okhan, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Kessobahn, Kilava, Korabas, Monok Ochem, Okaros, Okral Lom, Tiamatha,

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to night


Players not voted; Alkend, Ampelas, Bek Okhan, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Kessobahn, Kilava, Korabas, Monok Ochem, Okaros, Okral Lom, Tiamatha,

[Path-Shaper]

Eloth, on 13 March 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Hmm, Lock was 'town' and Rikkter was 'RI'. Does that mean Lock was roled, or am I reading too much into the inconsistency?


Edit: changed 'to' to 'too'. Two.

My bad, I am up an hour after I usually go to bed. Town. They are town.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 13 March 2014 - 11:48 PM

[Eloth]

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

Eloth, on 13 March 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Hmm, Lock was 'town' and Rikkter was 'RI'. Does that mean Lock was roled, or am I reading too much into the inconsistency?


Edit: changed 'to' to 'too'. Two.

My bad, I am up an hour after I usually go to bed. Town. They are town.

A mod god never sleeps!

[Alkend]

Well, so much for my case.

Anyways, early Day 2 and I want some low posters to talk.

Denul, Mr. Lubricant himself, has 2 posts. About lubricant.

Vote Denul

[Denul]

Hey, guys. Checking in. Unfortunately my low posting will continue for the next 8 hrs. I did say it would happen in sign ups. I should be back in 8-9 hours to catch up and get my thoughts on thread. I haven't even had a chance to read up since my last post. Such is life. Completely understand if I am in line for a lynch. But I will be more active in the coming week. Back in 8-9. Gotta run.

[Path-Shaper]

Weekend Freeze


Will start at 11:40pm tonight. As some people are away Monday (including me) I will unfreeze timer at 10pm Monday night. With 15 hours to go. The thread will remain open, and if you decide to lynch I will do my best to resolve.

[Bek Okhan]

Well, three times town is unfortunate. Bit surprised SR did what he did, saying "sorry dudes and dudettes" was enough. I didn't like the person who more or less suggested to him to modkill himself (Okaros) and I'll dig a bit into their post.

A tip for those who say it is superduper suspicious: lynch the guy anyway instead of "asking" them to modkill themselves, because that's quite an asshole move yourself. SR shouldn't have caved in the way he did, but let's face it, numberwise we're off worse now than if we lynched SR, "info" from the lynch (random as fuck) not withstanding. That was a holier-than-thou mechanics argument if I ever saw one...

Copy paste of parts of Okaros' PM:

Quote

He should know it's always better to lynch an unknown than a confirmed RI. Yes, you might hit another townie of course, but this is expected, especially on day 1. What we do gain from the lynch is train information and new info to analyze on day 2.

Meh. You only get the information if there's something to analyse from it. A day 1 train, which is "expected to lynch a townie" to quote you, seldom gives info unless there's lots of vote switching and/or one can decide on (a) pivot(s) that swung the lynch. There wasn't really any here.

You judge each situation as it is with past experience in mind, but there's no overarching principle that says each lynch train will point to the killers. In this day 1 setting, with talk about lubricant being the most interesting thing happening, also leading to a chase of the same individual (Denul) on day 2, a lynch on SR would have been a decent outcome.
Basically, you're talking out of your ass here.

Quote

So I HATE HATE HATE the self-lynch offering. If you're doing it for meta reasons, like low posting, either ride out the low poster game or get modkilled and stop playing so we don't waste our most important info-gathering tool on you - the lynch.

Agree with the first part, vehemently disagree with the second part for several reasons.
You're saying "if you can't be useful, kill yourself and get out of the way" which

A. lowers town numbers if the guy is a townie faster than balance of the game suggests is good,
B. opens the way for low poster hunts, which are usually distracting from scum hunts in mid- to late-game - low content as opposed to low posting is what yields scum,
C. to be pedantic as hell, reading comprehension is our best tool, followed by questioning, quoting, finds, lover relations, heals and guards because they can actually protect and reveal living CIs and establish shades of grey.Not to mention casemaking. The lynch is an imperfect tool at best and it is used most of the times because town is misguided by scum or by its own blinders. No single CF establishes trust in a living player. All it does is removing doubt from a single player's alignment (two if the lynch is the result of a reveal) at the cost (and in about 20% of the cases at the additional benefit) of removing that player from the game.
<br style="background-color: rgb(243, 249, 246);">

Quote

All that being said, it's unfortunate that Silchas has already made this play because it just makes me think we have to lynch him. Offering to be lynched is inherently suspicious, because it implies bad play (reasoning above) or weaseling out of the spotlight out of pathos from other players. Pathos has no place in Mafia, so the suspicion always remains unless we all sympathize with the poor man's plight and decide to basically CI him for the rest of the game, since it's not often we revisit lynch targets unless they do something egregious that pings the scumdar.

Blergh. Lecturing that looks like Okaros takes a stand, but it is basically all bullshit, including the last bit which is patently untrue.
Let me get my own private soapbox out to do some counter preaching.

People seldom leave the spotlights once they've been a target.
For one, whenever one avenue of inquiry runs dry, people turn back almost automatically, especially if there's little enthusiasm for casemaking.
Another reason is that a future townie who becomes a lynch target will always try and get someone else lynched in his stead, based on the knowledge that he is town - who better than someone who was already suspicious? The same goes for scum, but once fingered, that's usually to prolong the inevitable.

That's incidentally the point where train analysis actually will pay off. As for pathos having no place: bullshit. Decisions on who to trust, who to distrust, who to investigate, who to vote for are first and foremost based on interpretation and interpretation's always subjective and tinged with emotions, including pathos. It's one of the reasons why a strong symp is such a powerful asset to a scum team.

As for self-modkilling, blergh. It's setting a bad precedent. What if at a quarter of the game the most suspicious characters with a town PM decide on a suicide-per-modkill pact, clear themselves that way and leave the scum and just enough town to vote them off standing?

So, for
A. actively suggesting he mod-kills himself "for the benefit of town" when there's no better lynch;
B. making a huge post that really rubs me the wrong way content-wise;
C. lack of a better target:

Vote Okaros.

[Kilava]

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Silchas has been modkilled for quoting his role pm.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Lock is dead. She was Picker, Dolmen Weeks and town.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Rikkter is dead. He was Sergeant Whiskeyjack, Macros and Town

3 town down in a day that is not the best of starts in history.

Assuming 4 scum it's now 9-4

Locks play makes sense now we know it was Dolmen, rookie mistake in a book-themed game talking about something not explicitly mentioned already. I don't see anything in the OP about how much CF information we get so I guess we won't know if we lynch town roled or not but I had WJ down as a role if anyone was.

[Path-Shaper]

It is day two: 23 hours 40 minutes until night time.

13 players still alive; Alkend, Ampelas, Bek Okhan, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Kessobahn, Kilava, Korabas, Monok Ochem, Okaros, Okral Lom, Tiamatha,

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to night

1 Vote for Denul; (Alkend)
1 Vote for Okaros; (Bek Okhan)


Players not voted;Ampelas, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Kessobahn, Kilava, Korabas, Monok Ochem, Okaros, Okral Lom, Tiamatha,

[Denul]

Ok, as promised I am back and going to catch up on thread.

[Okaros]

Ok, Bek, let's take a fun look at ALL of the posts you've made this game besides your most recent:

Bek Okhan, on 13 March 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Rikkter, on 13 March 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

Ok so we're half way through day one and have got squat beyond the empires apparent love of the weredolphin.
has everyone checked in yet even?

Maybe now, but certainly not before you posted that.
Hmm, old school day 1, this. If only Dibs and Morghy were here to rub appendages.

Bek Okhan, on 13 March 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Ampelas, on 13 March 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Silchas Ruin, on 12 March 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

Ampelas, on 12 March 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 12 March 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 12 March 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

Korabas, on 12 March 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

Lock, on 12 March 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 12 March 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Why is that mans shin curved?

Curve lens camera maybe? Either that or he's outrunning physics.

It's cause he's a dolphin-man!

its the fabled were-dolphin!!

Oh god no. This is GotM themed mafia, not terrifying romance novel mafia, dammit.

I would totally read crossover malazan epic fantasy/horrible were-dolphin romance

It's because you're a were-homosexual most likely, as dolphins are a tab bit sissy.

A were-homosexual? Does that mean on become fabulous during full moons? Because I could live with that.

Well, considering a period can be called moon-blood, I guess it gives you something to do on nights when the wife is inconvenienced.

Bek Okhan, on 13 March 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 13 March 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

this conversation continues to plummet

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=oWvGlPf-z7I


or rather

http://www.youtube.c...0Gv0&feature=kp

Bek Okhan, on 13 March 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Maybe you'd prefer to stop at going down ebcause your love is calling, instead of meeting Mephisto?

Bek Okhan, on 13 March 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Alkend, on 13 March 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Damn, 10 hours left and all we've got is a lubrication link?

Smooth play by all involved with the lubricant

Bek Okhan, on 13 March 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Makes mental note to self to send SR's remark in an envelope adressed to their significant other.

Bek Okhan, on 13 March 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 13 March 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Silchas, I believe that things need to be refrained from and perhaps pulled back a bit.

This.

Until now you have not made a single serious post, you did not participate in voting at all, and you disappeared for the entire second half of day 1. You only have a single post that isn't about lube or SR's "tasteless" remark. Literally. So, having done fuck all so far this game, I think you came back to find a lot had happened and decided you needed to pretend to participate. You contradict yourself so many times in taking apart my post where I voted for Silchas that its desperation begs for a rejoinder. So here we go.

[Okaros]

You tried pretty hard to cherry-pick quotes from my post that would let you rant for a bit. I'll quote the full post for reference, since you cut most of it and only commented on about a quarter of what I said. I'm sure removing the context made it easier for you to "dig into."

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Ok, so day 1 still pretty slow. Day 1 votes are coming out like a normal game; cases built on nothing are usually better than actual nothing, since they at least provoke argument/defense/discussion. But I agree with whoever said the current votes are weak and oddly, looking at Silchas... I think he's probably telling the truth about the RP bit, but that doesn't mean it's the WHOLE truth. It could be RP AND a bit of signalling/truth/info. And of course the best place to hide information like that would be in the context of RP, which is perfect in this game since pretty much everyone is here in the first place because they love Malaz, so it's always familiar territory. So there's that.

The whole whoops-everyone-is-taking-offense-at-this-post bit doesn't bother me much. Who really cares? It certainly wouldn't be lynch-worthy in my eyes, even on day 1. But it's the mild-mannered self-offering-on-the-lynch-platter comment from Silchas that gets me. Anyone who self-votes or offers to be lynched is automatically a lynch target in my mind, because it is a play that makes no sense except from an "emotional appeal" perspective (AND THIS IS MAFIA, NO ONE CARES HOW YOU FEEL BITCH). Play like this always hurts whatever side the player is on. If he's scum, it's bad because it makes you a lynch target and on day 1 that is pretty fucking bad. If he's town, it's still bad, because it's just plain and simple bad town play. Assuming you're just some RI posting around and RPing and whatever, offering to be lynched never helps town. In M&P games, RIs win the game for town - that is their only job, to stay alive and study the thread and connect information to find scum. If you know you're town but you think your lynch won't matter cause you're just RI, you are wrong. If we DO lynch you, it was a waste, and not just because we lost a town player, but because that player (Silchas in this case) knows he's town but redirects the lynch onto himself. He should know it's always better to lynch an unknown than a confirmed RI. Yes, you might hit another townie of course, but this is expected, especially on day 1. What we do gain from the lynch is train information and new info to analyze on day 2. So I HATE HATE HATE the self-lynch offering. If you're doing it for meta reasons, like low posting, either ride out the low poster game or get modkilled and stop playing so we don't waste our most important info-gathering tool on you - the lynch.

All that being said, it's unfortunate that Silchas has already made this play because it just makes me think we have to lynch him. Offering to be lynched is inherently suspicious, because it implies bad play (reasoning above) or weaseling out of the spotlight out of pathos from other players. Pathos has no place in Mafia, so the suspicion always remains unless we all sympathize with the poor man's plight and decide to basically CI him for the rest of the game, since it's not often we revisit lynch targets unless they do something egregious that pings the scumdar.

Anyway, that was too long a post to say that I think Silchas made a mistake that deserves pressure unless a more obvious target presents itself.

Vote Silchas

for now. I should probably be around until timeout though.

Bek Okhan, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Well, three times town is unfortunate. Bit surprised SR did what he did, saying "sorry dudes and dudettes" was enough. I didn't like the person who more or less suggested to him to modkill himself (Okaros) and I'll dig a bit into their post.

A tip for those who say it is superduper suspicious: lynch the guy anyway instead of "asking" them to modkill themselves, because that's quite an asshole move yourself. SR shouldn't have caved in the way he did, but let's face it, numberwise we're off worse now than if we lynched SR, "info" from the lynch (random as fuck) not withstanding. That was a holier-than-thou mechanics argument if I ever saw one...

Copy paste of parts of Okaros' PM:

Quote

He should know it's always better to lynch an unknown than a confirmed RI. Yes, you might hit another townie of course, but this is expected, especially on day 1. What we do gain from the lynch is train information and new info to analyze on day 2.

Meh. You only get the information if there's something to analyse from it. A day 1 train, which is "expected to lynch a townie" to quote you, seldom gives info unless there's lots of vote switching and/or one can decide on (a) pivot(s) that swung the lynch. There wasn't really any here.

You judge each situation as it is with past experience in mind, but there's no overarching principle that says each lynch train will point to the killers. In this day 1 setting, with talk about lubricant being the most interesting thing happening, also leading to a chase of the same individual (Denul) on day 2, a lynch on SR would have been a decent outcome.
Basically, you're talking out of your ass here.

I guess we'll have to go through this slowly. First, I did try to lynch Silchas - I placed my vote on him and said I don't see any way that we shouldn't lynch him. So, you've got your facts a bit wrong there. As for the modkill comment, well, let's save that one for later. Second, my PM, eh? Easy enough mistake. Did you forget that not everyone else has off-thread comms? Been reading too many PMs from someone else? Not damning, but also simply untrue.

Nobody mentioned this principle you're talking about. Each lynch train becomes more valuable in terms of being analyzed as more lynches happen. Having three lynch trains to look back on and analyze is much better than having two. Of course day 2 is still a tenuous situation. We've barely moved into the middle of the game yet. And yet, that still doesn't counter the fact that train information IS important, even on day 2, or we wouldn't bother lynching on day 1 since we usually have so little to go on. So what are you saying here? First you say that lynch train information from day 1 isn't useful, then you go on to say that a lynch on SR would have been a "decent outcome". (I'm sure that's easy to say looking back at his CF.) If the first statement is true, why do we bother lynching on day 1? (I realize you didn't show up to vote, so you don't have any point of reference so far this game.) I'm talking out of my ass? You are not even agreeing with yourself; at least my position is consistent. If a lynch on SR is decent, why would a lynch on Lock be any worse?

Unless you're just upset about the modkill, which was a completely separate issue - it has nothing to do with how day 1 should be played and whether or not a lynch is good on day 1 (you'll notice most players on thread agreed with this even post-modkill, and I believe Tiam brought it up first). So if that's your argument you are in the minority. But let's look at your post anyway.

Bek Okhan, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Quote

So I HATE HATE HATE the self-lynch offering. If you're doing it for meta reasons, like low posting, either ride out the low poster game or get modkilled and stop playing so we don't waste our most important info-gathering tool on you - the lynch.

Agree with the first part, vehemently disagree with the second part for several reasons.
You're saying "if you can't be useful, kill yourself and get out of the way" which

A. lowers town numbers if the guy is a townie faster than balance of the game suggests is good,
B. opens the way for low poster hunts, which are usually distracting from scum hunts in mid- to late-game - low content as opposed to low posting is what yields scum,
C. to be pedantic as hell, reading comprehension is our best tool, followed by questioning, quoting, finds, lover relations, heals and guards because they can actually protect and reveal living CIs and establish shades of grey.Not to mention casemaking. The lynch is an imperfect tool at best and it is used most of the times because town is misguided by scum or by its own blinders. No single CF establishes trust in a living player. All it does is removing doubt from a single player's alignment (two if the lynch is the result of a reveal) at the cost (and in about 20% of the cases at the additional benefit) of removing that player from the game.
<br style="background-color: rgb(243, 249, 246);">

I'll first counter your points:

A. Yes, a modkill certainly upsets the balance of the game. No one wants a modkill. After calling me pedantic, this is almost comical. I never wanted a modkill, and I'll go into why I said what I did in a moment.
B. I'm not seeing the relevance here. Asking people to keep playing even IF they are low posting opens the way to low poster hunts? Because that's exactly what I said (quoted below).
C. Pedantic bear is pedantic? You're doing the same thing in this post that I was doing, buddy. Giving your own opinion on how the game should be played and acting like it's obvious. So you're already guilty of what you're accusing me of - always nice to point the finger while committing the same crime... Second..reading comprehension, hmm. Really? Is that important in a text-based information game? I was assuming we all had a grasp on this already or we wouldn't be here. And guess what - you conveniently dismissed the fact that I was explicitly talking about how RI should be playing . RI don't have finds, lovers, heals, or guards. It's like you only read half my post and decided it was a nice hook to latch onto. Notice this nice quote you ignored:

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

RIs win the game for town - that is their only job, to stay alive and study the thread and connect information to find scum. If you know you're town but you think your lynch won't matter cause you're just RI, you are wrong

Really, so you think that what I meant by that was we should not bother questioning, quoting, making cases? I clearly stated how I think RI should be playing, this game and in general - which was to stay alive and gather information and lynch. And yes, the lynch is one of if not the most important tools in the RI role. Often time most RIs are NOT making cases or starting lynch trains - most players either agree/disagree and vote accordingly. This means that as an RI, if, God forbid, someone else happens to make a good case, as an RI you can obviously try to make a counter case or any number of things, but in the simplest form, your power now lies in your vote. Do you vote for this person with a good case on them so we can hopefully hit scum and/or get a CF and analyze train info? Or do you not vote and sit around and hope your team wins? These are contradictory viewpoints, and only one can be considered good RI play, in general (allowing for exceptions, which can happen depending on the game or mechanics).

So either you a) didn't read my post, b ) lack your own self-proclaimed required reading comprehension, or c) you ignored it because it basically undermines your point so badly that it simply could not be made with my quote sitting next to it. Take your pick and let us know which one it was.

About the modkill - I made one comment about it in my entire post, and here it is:

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

If you're doing it for meta reasons, like low posting, either ride out the low poster game or get modkilled and stop playing so we don't waste our most important info-gathering tool on you - the lynch.

To be totally clear, I was not genuinely suggesting Silchas modkill himself. You'll also notice at this point he wasn't even a low poster. I made a strong, black-and-white statement like this (in the same context as my whole post) because offering to be lynched is the equivalent of not playing. You get lynched, you die, no more game for you (this is town vs. scum, I don't think we'll see anyone resurrected from the dead in TMDI 4). My point was that you should always keep playing, even as a low poster - try to do your best and make useful comments. This is still sitting on the crux of my whole post, which is "this is a really bad idea if you are RI - here are better ideas on how to play". I encouraged him to ride out the game if he thought he was just going to low post, and then I suggested that if he wasn't going to play, get modkilled. This is harsh, but I said it really to get a rise out of Silchas (I clearly did, just not the reaction I wanted) and provoke him into a real defense instead of "QQ, plz lynch me because I'm sad now". I believed it would be effective because if you were really going to intentionally modkill yourself on day 1, why sign up and play? That would make no sense to me, so his almost INSTANT decision to modkill himself after the first bit of real pressure from another player shows that Slichas didn't care about helping his team win (or else he would have defended himself or let himself be lynched instead of modkilled) and had no interest in even playing the game, since he threw in the towel halfway through day 1, before there was a train on him or any serious suspicion yet, aside from my original and only post pressuring him. Claiming that how SR feels about playing the game is in any way my fault is one you'll have to explain. Nobody who really cared about playing the game would modkill themselves at the first hint of a suggestion that they should, regardless of how he may have interpreted what I said.

Onward -

Bek Okhan, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Quote

All that being said, it's unfortunate that Silchas has already made this play because it just makes me think we have to lynch him. Offering to be lynched is inherently suspicious, because it implies bad play (reasoning above) or weaseling out of the spotlight out of pathos from other players. Pathos has no place in Mafia, so the suspicion always remains unless we all sympathize with the poor man's plight and decide to basically CI him for the rest of the game, since it's not often we revisit lynch targets unless they do something egregious that pings the scumdar.

Blergh. Lecturing that looks like Okaros takes a stand, but it is basically all bullshit, including the last bit which is patently untrue.
Let me get my own private soapbox out to do some counter preaching.

People seldom leave the spotlights once they've been a target.
For one, whenever one avenue of inquiry runs dry, people turn back almost automatically, especially if there's little enthusiasm for casemaking.
Another reason is that a future townie who becomes a lynch target will always try and get someone else lynched in his stead, based on the knowledge that he is town - who better than someone who was already suspicious? The same goes for scum, but once fingered, that's usually to prolong the inevitable.

That's incidentally the point where train analysis actually will pay off. As for pathos having no place: bullshit. Decisions on who to trust, who to distrust, who to investigate, who to vote for are first and foremost based on interpretation and interpretation's always subjective and tinged with emotions, including pathos. It's one of the reasons why a strong symp is such a powerful asset to a scum team.

I just flat out disagree with you here. And please recognize, this is a disagreement about the fundamentals of how to play Mafia, not anything related to this game specifically. In my experience, in M&P games or normal town vs. scum games (that's what this is), when the lynch comes down to two targets and there are trains on both, it usually swings one way and never swings back. The person who got let off the hook is not a primary target anymore because we usually cannot afford to waste another day lynching him based on any new information gained from the day's lynch (CF), lynch train, and night actions. The search almost ALWAYS turns to someone else - as you yourself have proven. You decided the next highest target from day 1 gets a pass, despite Monok even getting 3 votes that never moved, and you vote for me instead. This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You'll notice Alkend did the same thing - dismissed the other target from the previous day and decided to put pressure on a low-poster, Denul. So you're just factually wrong about this being a generally true statement - I won't disagree that sometimes we do go back and lynch people who were targets from previous days, but it's not common that they are the first players examined after night gets resolved. So we disagree, and so far, the play this game supports my view and not yours.

Comment about pathos - again, I was using strong wording to emphasize that whining about being a lynch target almost never works and no one cares if you go down crying while sitting on your hands. That's what I meant when I said this first:

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Anyone who self-votes or offers to be lynched is automatically a lynch target in my mind, because it is a play that makes no sense except from an "emotional appeal" perspective (AND THIS IS MAFIA, NO ONE CARES HOW YOU FEEL BITCH)

You're right in that if you can convince players to take pathos into account when they are analyzing the game, it is a very strong play, which is why you're right, a good symp DOES do that because it fucks with town, not because it helps them. I've been talking the whole time about the basic town RI role and from your own words, your dissenting opinion only applies if you're scum. Gee, how convincing, RI's should be playing like scum to win the game! Your analysis and conclusion of my argument culminates in suggesting a playstyle that DOES NOT HELP TOWN, but instead you say it EXPLICITLY HELPS SCUM. What the fuck does that make you? Doesn't sound like good advice coming from a townie....

Bek Okhan, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

As for self-modkilling, blergh. It's setting a bad precedent. What if at a quarter of the game the most suspicious characters with a town PM decide on a suicide-per-modkill pact, clear themselves that way and leave the scum and just enough town to vote them off standing?

So, for
A. actively suggesting he mod-kills himself "for the benefit of town" when there's no better lynch;
B. making a huge post that really rubs me the wrong way content-wise;
C. lack of a better target:

Vote Okaros.

A bad precedent? How about just bad in general? No fucking shit it's bad. Oh wait...then you go to EXPLICITLY SPECULATE on the possibility that Hey, if all the town players who appear suspicious on thread just modkill themselves, town can easily just find scum and win the game! Are. You. Fucking. Serious. You actually suggested that a large number of town players modkilling themselves could benefit town. Holy fucking shitballs, Batman. I can't think of a worse idea for town - STOP PLAYING, FORGET CASES, JUST BREAK THE GAME AND GIVE US YOUR CF PLZ. Scum talking if I ever fucking heard one.

As for your "summary" of reasons to vote me, well, they lack so much substance now that addressing them again would be a waste of time. And I think my reasons for voting you are now pretty clear.

Your post is the scummiest post so far this game.

Vote Bek Okhan

[Korabas]

Kilava, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Silchas has been modkilled for quoting his role pm.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Lock is dead. She was Picker, Dolmen Weeks and town.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Rikkter is dead. He was Sergeant Whiskeyjack, Macros and Town

3 town down in a day that is not the best of starts in history.

Assuming 4 scum it's now 9-4

Locks play makes sense now we know it was Dolmen, rookie mistake in a book-themed game talking about something not explicitly mentioned already. I don't see anything in the OP about how much CF information we get so I guess we won't know if we lynch town roled or not but I had WJ down as a role if anyone was.

Why in the world would you assume 4 scum? Usually ratio is 3 town to 1 scum. In a 16 player game, 3 scum would be plenty. You working with extra information?

[Denul]

OK, I am all caught up. I have a few quotes to comment on. First;

Okral Lom, on 13 March 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Silchas Ruin, on 12 March 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

Back.

Anyone up for a few card games? I've got me Deck o' Dragons right here in me pocket.

Well it's tenuous at best, but the only thing really game related that stuck out at me is this. Either it's just RP or Silchas is trying to set themselves up as Fiddler.

Can't believe no one brought this up... Why would someone try and out someone setting themselves up as Fiddler? Even if you notice it, you keep it to yourselves and hope scum don't notice. This post set off some alarm bells.

[Denul]

Korabas, on 14 March 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

Kilava, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Silchas has been modkilled for quoting his role pm.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Lock is dead. She was Picker, Dolmen Weeks and town.

Path-Shaper, on 13 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Rikkter is dead. He was Sergeant Whiskeyjack, Macros and Town

3 town down in a day that is not the best of starts in history.

Assuming 4 scum it's now 9-4

Locks play makes sense now we know it was Dolmen, rookie mistake in a book-themed game talking about something not explicitly mentioned already. I don't see anything in the OP about how much CF information we get so I guess we won't know if we lynch town roled or not but I had WJ down as a role if anyone was.

Why in the world would you assume 4 scum? Usually ratio is 3 town to 1 scum. In a 16 player game, 3 scum would be plenty. You working with extra information?

You posted as I was just posting. I thought that was odd as well. I would have gotten to this later in my quote break down, but I was thinking it was odd. I assumed 3 scum for this game. I get WCS and all, but this is TDMI 4 and I would expect the usual ratios to be present. It does sound like he has some extra info.

[Korabas]

I can't decide if Okaros has a point about Bek or if he's just gotten really defensive all of a sudden.

[Denul]

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Eloth, on 13 March 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 13 March 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Silchas Ruin, on 12 March 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

Back.

Anyone up for a few card games? I've got me Deck o' Dragons right here in me pocket.

Well it's tenuous at best, but the only thing really game related that stuck out at me is this. Either it's just RP or Silchas is trying to set themselves up as Fiddler.

Or as Tattersail (see PS' last story post). Or maybe Tayschrenn. But I agree Okral, the wording sounds a bit odd.

Ok, so day 1 still pretty slow. Day 1 votes are coming out like a normal game; cases built on nothing are usually better than actual nothing, since they at least provoke argument/defense/discussion. But I agree with whoever said the current votes are weak and oddly, looking at Silchas... I think he's probably telling the truth about the RP bit, but that doesn't mean it's the WHOLE truth. It could be RP AND a bit of signalling/truth/info. And of course the best place to hide information like that would be in the context of RP, which is perfect in this game since pretty much everyone is here in the first place because they love Malaz, so it's always familiar territory. So there's that.

The whole whoops-everyone-is-taking-offense-at-this-post bit doesn't bother me much. Who really cares? It certainly wouldn't be lynch-worthy in my eyes, even on day 1. But it's the mild-mannered self-offering-on-the-lynch-platter comment from Silchas that gets me. Anyone who self-votes or offers to be lynched is automatically a lynch target in my mind, because it is a play that makes no sense except from an "emotional appeal" perspective (AND THIS IS MAFIA, NO ONE CARES HOW YOU FEEL BITCH). Play like this always hurts whatever side the player is on. If he's scum, it's bad because it makes you a lynch target and on day 1 that is pretty fucking bad. If he's town, it's still bad, because it's just plain and simple bad town play. Assuming you're just some RI posting around and RPing and whatever, offering to be lynched never helps town. In M&P games, RIs win the game for town - that is their only job, to stay alive and study the thread and connect information to find scum. If you know you're town but you think your lynch won't matter cause you're just RI, you are wrong. If we DO lynch you, it was a waste, and not just because we lost a town player, but because that player (Silchas in this case) knows he's town but redirects the lynch onto himself. He should know it's always better to lynch an unknown than a confirmed RI. Yes, you might hit another townie of course, but this is expected, especially on day 1. What we do gain from the lynch is train information and new info to analyze on day 2. So I HATE HATE HATE the self-lynch offering. If you're doing it for meta reasons, like low posting, either ride out the low poster game or get modkilled and stop playing so we don't waste our most important info-gathering tool on you - the lynch.

All that being said, it's unfortunate that Silchas has already made this play because it just makes me think we have to lynch him. Offering to be lynched is inherently suspicious, because it implies bad play (reasoning above) or weaseling out of the spotlight out of pathos from other players. Pathos has no place in Mafia, so the suspicion always remains unless we all sympathize with the poor man's plight and decide to basically CI him for the rest of the game, since it's not often we revisit lynch targets unless they do something egregious that pings the scumdar.

Anyway, that was too long a post to say that I think Silchas made a mistake that deserves pressure unless a more obvious target presents itself.

Vote Silchas

for now. I should probably be around until timeout though.

After a slow day, and few votes, Okaros votes Silchas here. This was a long winded post that, when i first read it thought "He is trying real hard to contribute here." In and of itself it isn't much, but I did think it was odd.

[Denul]

Ampelas, on 13 March 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

Interesting. Silchas' comment was tasteless, but it's nothing worse than we've heard from Maccy or Vengeance when they get on a roll.

However, I also object to the pity self-vote, and I'm prepared to vote Silchas for the lynch.

"I am prepared to vote for..." in other words, "I'll vote for whoever has the most votes"

This pinged my scumdar. If you are voting just to get a lynch, say so. This sounds like he is just waiting around and will vote for whoever without actually saying that.

[Denul]

Okaros, on 13 March 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

Silchas wasn't even low-posting, he's still sitting one post behind Rikkter for most posts this game so far. Makes no fucking sense.

Tiamatha, on 13 March 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

Well now I have to ask the question. Do we want to potentially lynch a towny on top of losing one town member today. Putting us down a probable 3 town players going into the start of day 2. Or do we want to eat the modkill and try to figure out connections with out a day 1 lynch?

Interesting question, but with 16 players, we should have a lot of room. Losing 3 players on night 1 instead of 2 players (assuming this plays like a normal day 1 and they're all town) isn't that big of a difference in a town vs. scum game with this many players. And unfortunately, the lynch train is usually where we get most of the information we need to continue analyzing interactions on thread, and Silchas has robbed us of that. Without a lynch, I don't see how we have much more info on day 2 than we already do now besides an NK.

While I don't completely disagree with this post, I think there is a pretty big difference between losing 3 and losing 2 players. Not only do we get 0 information from the extra death, it throws us off on the odd/even at the end of the game. We now have no choice who we have going in to the final 3 (if it gets that far.) granted thats far down the road, and may not come into play, but the more information we can control, the better. I do agree though that we should have gone for a lynch. That is where we get most of our information and am a little suspicious of Tiam for even suggesting that we don't still try to lynch even with a modkill. When given the choice between lynch and non lynch I will always chose the lynch. FWIW I would have voted Lock had I been around and we needed a vote.