[D'rek]

 Egwene, on 18 February 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

Talking about Disavowed...

I am editing stuff onto Wikia as I go along and entering the name 'Sour' it comes up as already been taken by a mage in the Crimson Guard?! I assume that they are two different persons... or are they? There is that bit where Murk ponders that his old teacher will never forgive him for joining the enemy... HELP!!! Any clarification on those two guys greatly appreciated (but maybe spoiler proof for OP) Thanks

I think Sour was listed as a mage in the Third Company of the Crimson Guard in RotCG's dramatis personae. The 12 listed members of the 3rd Company were all Avowed who broke out of the caves in Umryg and limped into Stratem to meet up with the (much larger) 1st and 2nd Companies. I don't recall Sour specifically being mentioned doing anything but he/she could have been.

Not enough information to decide conclusively, but since the Crimson Guard Sour was Avowed, I think it's likely the one in B&B is a different Sour with the same name.

[Tiste Simeon]

I think the mention of joining with the enemy refers to the fact that his mentor hated the Malazans and here is old Murk working for them! Don't think there are any links to the Crimson Guard there. It's how I read it anyway.

Am over halfway through now! Am enjoying the Murk & Sour storyline and also the Adwami/Warleader and Saeng storylines. Not sure what is going on with Osserc and Gothos but I love Jaghut humour! The thaumaturg army story is a bit ponderous but I like that despite their arrogance they are getting owned by the jungle (and that one dude is captured by a bunch of starving bandits and all his men killed...)

The only thing I dislike is the Crimson Guard plot with Shimmer etc. Every single time it is just "we're on a boat. Everyone on the boat is under some lethargic spell. Rutana says something cryptic. K'azz says something cryptic and looks sad. End scene." And that is it!

[Egwene]

LOL... yeah, know what you mean. I was thinking yesterday, that maybe the reason this book gets a fair bit of negative feedback is the setting. Esslemont does such a good job at describing the oppressive climate and the dense, almost claustrophobic surroundings - add to that the characters (aka Shimmer and K'azz especially) lethargies... it actually transmits to the reader.

I did think it would be a long shot for Sour to be Crimson Guard... but stranger things have happened...

[Tiste Simeon]

Finished! Egwene, everything from here may contain spoilers but will try not to give too much away...

First thoughts: great book! Possibly ICE's best to date. Maybe it's because I was a bit disappointed with OST (and I think that was just because it came straight after TTH which is my favourite of all) but the setting and the oppressive feel of the book were excellent. I obviously have some questions and thoughts though...

So what was all that at the end with Ardata and the QoD? Not really sure what was going on there.

Also the whole invasion of the jungle storyline was seemingly pointless. I'm a bit confused about what we are meant to take from that... I liked it but for example the bit with Golan in the epilogue seemed to suggest

Spoiler

he was completely unaware that he was possibly one of the only Thaumaturgs left and his whole society had crumbled.

Nice Crimson Guard tie in to the Assail novel at the end but again the K'azz storyline was a bit pointless.

However there was a lot to like about this book and I am definitely looking forward to Assail and PLEASE let us have answers about the Vow in that one instead of dropping infinite hints about it!

[nacht]

 Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 20 February 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Finished! Egwene, everything from here may contain spoilers but will try not to give too much away...

First thoughts: great book! Possibly ICE's best to date. Maybe it's because I was a bit disappointed with OST (and I think that was just because it came straight after TTH which is my favourite of all) but the setting and the oppressive feel of the book were excellent. I obviously have some questions and thoughts though...

So what was all that at the end with Ardata and the QoD? Not really sure what was going on there.

Also the whole invasion of the jungle storyline was seemingly pointless. I'm a bit confused about what we are meant to take from that... I liked it but for example the bit with Golan in the epilogue seemed to suggest

Spoiler

he was completely unaware that he was possibly one of the only Thaumaturgs left and his whole society had crumbled.

Nice Crimson Guard tie in to the Assail novel at the end but again the K'azz storyline was a bit pointless.

However there was a lot to like about this book and I am definitely looking forward to Assail and PLEASE let us have answers about the Vow in that one instead of dropping infinite hints about it!

Spoiler

The expedition into Himatan was a feint to ensure that no ascendants/gods were aware of the ritual in the temple of light (and in that respect it was quite successful)
The K'azz storylines show us some things (and ICE took his time to make the points).
1. Kazz is deeply distressed
2. Something is happening to the Crimson Guard that they themselves are not aware of (except Kazz). At this point we share the same distress that Shimmer is feeling.
3. The rebel (disavowed) and the mainline factions meets onscreen (vs offscreen). Once Skinner is eliminated they are now one big happy family. So the story arc of the disavowed is now resolved and merged into the main guard storyline)
4. We get to see how badass Ardata can be. Credit to ICE in creating the atmosphere of a real menacing goddess

This post has been edited by nacht: 20 February 2014 - 04:53 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

I'll definitely agree with your last bit. Her power is pervasive & a bit scary!

Still not that clear what went on with her & T'riss at the end though...

And just to be clear re: the Thaumaturgs they were

Spoiler

trying to do another "Crippled God" again to Kallor cos they knew he was back with a vengeance but they failed due to Pon Lor & Shaeng. Right?

[nacht]

 Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 20 February 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

I'll definitely agree with your last bit. Her power is pervasive & a bit scary!

Still not that clear what went on with her & T'riss at the end though...

And just to be clear re: the Thaumaturgs they were

Spoiler

trying to do another "Crippled God" again to Kallor cos they knew he was back with a vengeance but they failed due to Pon Lor & Shaeng. Right?

Spoiler

The T'riss and Ardata fight was the most disappointing part of the story to me. It was a great buildup but ended very vaguely. It seems T'riss won out and was able to convince Ardata to change some things, specifically regarding her daughter and also to "stand down" regarding the crippled god (I thnk)

You are right regarding the Thaumaturgs. They were trying to pull down the jade giants either to control their power or directly use them to pummel Kallor.

[Egwene]

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease, can you all un-spoiler everything???!!! Having to click all the 'show' buttons is driving me nuts!!!!

Yeah, as I meant to say, don't worry about me not being finished yet... just makes me all the more intrigued to come across spoiler... so, carry on without hiding everything. Really, honestly, faced with all those hidden replies... you should have heard my screams of frustration wherever you are!

I am not reading as fast because I am working, sometimes, and also getting side-tracked with editing the Wikia...

Just read the chapter with Murk clocking Burastan as a former Red Blade...

The jungle raises some questions... reading the description of the Thaumaturg's army... they must be at least 20000 strong... how on earth could you get an army that size through a jungle???? With carts and all??? Not sure that it all adds up... and no, I am not bothered by this sort of thing but curious nevertheless...

[Spoilsport Stonny]

You are on the internet. "Clicking" things is inherent.

[nacht]

 Egwene, on 20 February 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease, can you all un-spoiler everything???!!! Having to click all the 'show' buttons is driving me nuts!!!!

Yeah, as I meant to say, don't worry about me not being finished yet... just makes me all the more intrigued to come across spoiler... so, carry on without hiding everything. Really, honestly, faced with all those hidden replies... you should have heard my screams of frustration wherever you are!

I am not reading as fast because I am working, sometimes, and also getting side-tracked with editing the Wikia...

Just read the chapter with Murk clocking Burastan as a former Red Blade...

The jungle raises some questions... reading the description of the Thaumaturg's army... they must be at least 20000 strong... how on earth could you get an army that size through a jungle???? With carts and all??? Not sure that it all adds up... and no, I am not bothered by this sort of thing but curious nevertheless...

I tried but I just can't
These are big big spoilers
Don't worry about this thread. Just read the whole thing and come back. It will be a lot more fun.

[Tiste Simeon]

Sorry Egwene I just didn't want to ruin anything for you but won't put anything else in spoilers... Another thing I want to clarify is the Osserc & Gothos scenes. Firstly I dunno how ICE dud it but with the exception of the Cowl/Temper bit, absolutely nothing happened yet I found myself completely drawn in by that plot line! My theory is that Osserc was aware that something was going down in the Temple of Light in Jacuruku & wasn't sure if he should sacrifice himself to stop Bad Stuff happening. Gothos, though a bit of a prick (man I love Jaghut humour!) was able to convince him it was the right thing to do and Osserc somehow absorbed most of the backlash of whatever Saeng did in the Temple. He isn't quite dead though & thanks to L'oric & Spites intervention (where is the fan art of nekkid Spite btw???) He is now healing up in Kurald Thyrllan.

I think that is what happened anyway...

[Aptorian]

Pssst, Egwene.

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Are you sure this is the last spoiler box?

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[spoiler]MODGOD NOTICE OF MORE SPOILER BOXES

This post has been edited by Abyss: 21 February 2014 - 06:20 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Man i wish I could rep from my phone!

[Egwene]

I am still looking, Maybe Apt Rep due!!!

Agree with your thoughts on Jaghut humour, Simeon. Loved Hood in tCG. The conversations between Gothos and Osserc certainly demand jumps in one's thought process..

Reading Shimmer's recollection of the vow... what are the speculations about the area where it happened? Was it one of the original Ritual of Tellan sites? That would certainly make for interesting speculation on how the vow is progressing... Is K'azz depressed because he has realized that he has condemned everyone to turn into T'lan Crimson Guard?! And is Kilava the woman who was seen by Shimmmer?

[Abyss]

 Egwene, on 21 February 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

I am still looking, Maybe Apt Rep due!!!

Agree with your thoughts on Jaghut humour, Simeon. Loved Hood in tCG. The conversations between Gothos and Osserc certainly demand jumps in one's thought process..

Reading Shimmer's recollection of the vow... what are the speculations about the area where it happened? Was it one of the original Ritual of Tellan sites? That would certainly make for interesting speculation on how the vow is progressing... Is K'azz depressed because he has realized that he has condemned everyone to turn into T'lan Crimson Guard?! And is Kilava the woman who was seen by Shimmmer?

I think it was a Tellan site, if not THE Tellan Ritual site.
I think it was Kilava.

I think K'azz is depressed because he knows he'll have to die to release the remaining Avowed from the Vow and most of them wouldn't want to be released anyways.

[Egwene]

Not sure I agree with that, Abyss. K'azz doesn't strike me as the sort of guy who would shy away from his own death if he thought it was for the best for his followers. I would think it more likely that he doesn't know how to put it to the rest that they are in reality walking corpses and, when whatever it is happens, they will all, dead and so-called alive brethren do the dust-to-dust bit?! Given how Shimmer reacts to K'azz's, in her eyes, premature aging, I think he must be shi.... well, trembling in his boots.

If we are seeing a version of the Tellan ritual then would it possibly require someone/thing akin to a Silverfox to release the ones bound? Is that what they are looking for in Assail? Could it be the un-known woman from the ritual?

PS: finished the book now. Jungle definitely not my favourite backdrop but thrilled about all the revelations and looking forward to the grand finale

[Tiste Simeon]

The "us Crimson Guard are all undead and that is a bit mental and hey, does that mean we can turn into dust cos that is a way cool party tri... I mean oh noes we're going to end up like the T'lan Imass, and I used to be so hawt" theory makes a lot of sense to me. Still not sure how that related to K'azz in the Dolmens and what happened to him there...

[Abyss]

 Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 22 February 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

The "us Crimson Guard are all undead and that is a bit mental and hey, does that mean we can turn into dust cos that is a way cool party tri... I mean oh noes we're going to end up like the T'lan Imass, and I used to be so hawt" theory makes a lot of sense to me. Still not sure how that related to K'azz in the Dolmens and what happened to him there...

Not quite. It seems more like the vow denies them an afterlife. We know avowed heal, after all.

[Tiste Simeon]

Ah but do we know that the T'lann Imass didn't heal at first? It might be a very slow degradation process... I genuinely can't remember...

[Abyss]

 Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 28 February 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

Ah but do we know that the T'lann Imass didn't heal at first? It might be a very slow degradation process... I genuinely can't remember...

Good point and interesting theory. The Imass and millenia older than the Avowed, so there's no telling if they aren't what the Avowed could eventually become.

There are some major differences between the Tellan Ritual and the Vow tho', notably the Imass drew on their own warren, their Bonecasters, and clan links, while it seems like anyone willing to swear to K'azz became part of the Vow. The Ritual worked over distances, all the Avowed were standing right there. Imass souls dissipate, Avowed become Brethren. Tattersail can release Imass from the Ritual, it doesn't seem like K'azz can...