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Single Information Articles Should they stay independent or merge? Rate Topic: -----

Poll: Single Information Articles (10 member(s) have cast votes)

Should single data articles be:

  1. Deleted with the info merged into a larger, more general, article? (3 votes [30.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

  2. Kept in their tiny separate state forever-more? (7 votes [70.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 70.00%

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#1 User is offline   Jade Raven 

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 06:40 AM

The question has been raised on the wiki as to whether or not articles that only have a single piece of information from the books with little chance of further expansion should be deleted if that information is already in another article.

Ozymadiac said:

There is a class of articles that do not provide any information and could be deleted, because they provide a single piece of information. For example, take a look at the article on Okaros. All that is known about Okaros is that it is an Eleint. So, that article can only state that is an Eleint, and the only article linking to this page is the one on Eleint. The article on Okaros and the link towards it might be deleted without any information loss.

They do no harm, but I do spend some time trying to improve them while that isn't possible. More importantly, for the reader it feels the Wikia is a bit stretched out: when you're browsing for fun there are a lot of these dead-end pages you run into.

TL;DR: articles not worth writing nor reading should be deleted included the 1 link directing to it.


The counter-argument:

Egwene said:

I would disagree with Ozymandiac on the subject of deleting pages because there is not a lot of information. I came to this wiki as a user and as such would like every character ever mentioned to be included. It is exactly the sort of trivia I might be looking for. Unless there is a limit to the number of pages I can see no reason to delete even the smallest bit of information. Especially with books still being written in the Malazan world.


I haven't tried a poll before so lets see how this goes.
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#2 User is offline   Ozymandiac 

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 03:58 PM

As a counter-counter-argument to what Egwene said in above post:

We would not delete any information. Again, the article on Okaros serves as a good example. The only thing we know is the following: Okaros=Eleint. Let's assume the two scenarios that will lead to somebody visiting the Okaros page.

The first scenario is that somebody visits the Wikia because he is interested in Eleint. He looks for Eleint and ends up on the intended page. Chances are he will click on some random Eleint mentioned in the article to see what he can learn about them. Now, if I were him, I would really dislike ending up on a page that only says: "Okaros was one of the Eleint." It feels like a dead end, because it is a dead end. I already knew this information.

The second scenario is that somebody searches for Okaros in the search toolbar because he read the name in the books and wonders if he Okaros is mentioned more than once. Now, the only thing the visitor will learn from his visit is that Okaros was an Eleint, either because he ended on Okaros page or the Eleint page.

So, my proposal is: make single-information articles redirects to the intended page and delete the link towards the single-information page. In the case of Okaros: make a redirect towards Eleint and delete the link to Okaros on the Eleint page.
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#3 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:17 PM

I don't have a really strong opinion about this one way or another, but two more bits of thought related to it:

1 - how does the search function work? I know with PBWiki if you typed "Okaros" into the search bar, if there was an article called Okaros it would appear as a clickable drop-down item that takes you right to the article, but if there's no page with Okaros in the name it would only search by page content and in some cases the pages most people would then want as their first result often ended up more like the fifth or sixth.

2 - How/are you doing referencing/quoting? If you are intending to have supporting quotes listed for every article, it is good to have seperate articles for people, places, etc, because then those single pages can easily show exactly what few quotes that thing comes from (ie the Okaros page would have just the two or so quotes that Okaros is mentioned in, and people would not need to dig through a much larger article to see them).

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4 User is offline   Jade Raven 

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:34 PM

View PostD, on 08 February 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

1 - how does the search function work? I know with PBWiki if you typed "Okaros" into the search bar, if there was an article called Okaros it would appear as a clickable drop-down item that takes you right to the article, but if there's no page with Okaros in the name it would only search by page content and in some cases the pages most people would then want as their first result often ended up more like the fifth or sixth.

2 - How/are you doing referencing/quoting? If you are intending to have supporting quotes listed for every article, it is good to have seperate articles for people, places, etc, because then those single pages can easily show exactly what few quotes that thing comes from (ie the Okaros page would have just the two or so quotes that Okaros is mentioned in, and people would not need to dig through a much larger article to see them).


1. A search for Okaros currently would take you directly to the page for Okaros, if it was deleted instead it would take you to a search results page with the page Eleint as, almost certainly, the first result. By putting a redirect in you would automatically go to Eleint page as Ozymandiac says.

2. While I'm still working on the referencing system, there wont be a need for any digging for references in an ideal article. The references/quotes will always be at the bottom of the page with a link down there from a superscript at the end of the line detailing Okaros - like Wikipedia does it. (eg. Okaros[src] ).

************
I am more interested in a full and consistent encyclopedia without compromising in the way that it is presented like a paper version would have to.

Now I would have to say that there would be no information loss, but I would also say there is no penalty either way for a direct search from the search bar. A frustration penalty may occur when clicking through from a link on the Eleint page, but I would dispute that the same frustration would happen by arriving at it by directly searching or using the category tree. And this brings me to my main argument for keeping the tiny articles; the category index allows for another way to search for things and view information. In this case going to Category:Eleint should show all the known Eleint.

With regards to it being frustrating to edit/expand these articles I have been thinking of creating a template to indicate to both the reader and editor that the article is information complete. It could turn around frustration to satisfaction knowing that you have finished or completed that article.

I realise this is a pretty esoteric topic to discuss when the wiki is so unfinished, but such is the nature of internet arguments.

Does anyone actually have a reference for Okaros? I just had a look in the PB wiki and it seems Okaros is a true Eleint and not a soletaken whose mother (ancestor?) was T'iam.
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#5 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:18 AM

The re-direct / optimized search combined with your idea for the references sounds like it would work well. The only thing there is that since the series is on-going, there does need to be a method (that is accessible to regular editors) to remove the redirect and make it a full page again, if for example Okaros suddenly becomes a major character in the Toblakai trilogy.

View PostJade Raven, on 08 February 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

Does anyone actually have a reference for Okaros? I just had a look in the PB wiki and it seems Okaros is a true Eleint and not a soletaken whose mother (ancestor?) was T'iam.


Off the top of my head, I recall (s)he was among the Eleint listed by Rud Elalle in MT when Udinaas and Feather Witch visit the Refugium. There might have been another reference to Okaros in DoD/TCG, but nothing comes to mind (I think that was just Alkend, Kessobahn, Karosis and Anthras that were previously only mentioned by Rud Elalle but got more mentions in DoD/TCG {leaving Okaros and Karatallid as the only two only mentioned once} ).

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#6 User is offline   Jade Raven 

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 09:10 AM

View PostDrek, on 09 February 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

The re-direct / optimized search combined with your idea for the references sounds like it would work well. The only thing there is that since the series is on-going, there does need to be a method (that is accessible to regular editors) to remove the redirect and make it a full page again, if for example Okaros suddenly becomes a major character in the Toblakai trilogy.

Doing a redirect is possible without even logging in. Most things are. One of the few (editing) powers reserved to Admins is the ability to outright delete a page (reversion is possible after this).

Drek said:

Off the top of my head, I recall (s)he was among the Eleint listed by Rud Elalle in MT when Udinaas and Feather Witch visit the Refugium. There might have been another reference to Okaros in DoD/TCG, but nothing comes to mind (I think that was just Alkend, Kessobahn, Karosis and Anthras that were previously only mentioned by Rud Elalle but got more mentions in DoD/TCG {leaving Okaros and Karatallid as the only two only mentioned once} ).

Wow, you really are as good as they say you are. Posted Image

This post has been edited by Jade Raven: 09 February 2014 - 09:10 AM

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#7 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:35 AM

I second your wow, Jade_Raven! Get D'rek to proofread the entire Wikia!!!!

One reason I would like to keep separate pages is that little information is information in itself. I have often looked up obscure characters and when I see only a marginal entry, I assume that no, I did not miss anything, the character really is just a walk-on extra. It also allows for easy expansion should that character get more on-stage time in any of the forthcoming books.
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#8 User is offline   Jade Raven 

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:41 AM

I have updated Okaros to better reflect the final goal for these types of articles.
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#9 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:08 PM

That is exactly the sort of page I had in mind for one-off appearances. Thanks, Jade_Raven :)
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#10 User is offline   Gabriel Chase 

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:40 PM

I like this posterís idea, which is usually the sort of thing seen in Wikipedia at large, at any rate:

View PostOzymandiac, on 08 February 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

make single-information articles redirects to the intended page and delete the link towards the single-information page. In the case of Okaros: make a redirect towards Eleint and delete the link to Okaros on the Eleint page.

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#11 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:21 AM

It doesn't worry me too much where the info is stored, as long as it is searchable, that is, if for example I put Okaros into the search box, I will get to that information.

Although, having said that... if someone searches for Okaros and ends up on the Eleint page... it would be quite confusing. Unless the re-direct is to the part of the page where Okaros is actually mentioned.

There is another point to be considered...

The Wikia is work in progress. So some contributors may have opened a page with very little info on it as they are looking towards adding more as they come across it whilst reading. And as I have said before... SE and ICE are still writing and Okaros may have a leading role in the next book...
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#12 User is offline   Jade Raven 

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:14 PM

Based on the votes and arguments given I have updated the Manual of Style to indicate that single-information articles be allowed. Any further debate should be taken to the Manual of Style's talk page.
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