[Dolmen 2.0]

Khellendros, on 04 February 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

D, on 04 February 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

The only fighting games I've played enough to remember are Soul Calibur 2 and Dynasty Warriors 4 - both of which are from about 10 years or so. I never really had a problem with the depiction of the female characters in either of those.

Soul Calibur 2 had the infamous dominatrix outfit for Ivy, but the whole game was silly/over-the-top enough in a comic way that I didn't feel it was offensive - Voldo and the giant axe guy had weird dungeon-porn outfits too. Mina also had a really revealing outfit, but the guy characters Kilik and Maxi had 'ripped' shirtless/open jacket costumes, too. At the same time, there were both female and male characters that had much more modest body types and attire, too - I used to always play as Xianghua or Talim, who both had outfits that were a big aesthetically outlandish, but neither had very sexulaized clothes and their bodies were pretty ordinarily shaped. Furthermore, the crazy over-the-top stuff wasn't always sexualized stuff - there's a crazy pirate guy and a hyperactive samurai, for example. It is a good point that you made up-thread that none of the really 'crazy' characters are female, I hadn't really thought about that before.

Dynasty Warriors 4 didn't, IMO, have any problems with its depictions of female characters, except for maybe putting 12-year-olds on the battlefield Arguably Zhu Rong was a little indecent, but that's far more to do with the whole jungle barbarian aesthetic they used for the whole Nanman group, as her husband has similar costumes and their basic soldiers are pretty much just wearing loinclothes sometimes! The only problem I noticed when I played it when I was younger was that there were far fewer female characters to choose from. Then I read the books it's based on and realized that was the book itself, and that Koei was pretty much actively choosing to put *more* female characters in by including the girls who had pretty much no part in the story.

So there are definitely fighting games out there that can be very successful without, IMO, having unrealistic jiggle physics and sexualizing all their female characters. The problem is, that I never played any games in these series after SC2 and DW4... and apparently it has gotten much worse. Haven't played them, so it's hard to be sure, but just from google image searching these series it looks like all the SC girls now have a minimum D-sized breasts, and the DW outfits have definitely trended towards much more revealing+alluring costumes (while the guys have overall gotten younger and muscleyer). Likewise, google image searching Tekken characters doesn't look very diverse or balanced, either. I'm glad that when I was playing fighting games it was 10 years ago, because if I were playing the ones that are coming out now, I would indeed be pissed off about it.

Soul Calibur is/was my favourite fighting game series.

There is a direct, and depressing, correlation between the stark drop in quality of Soul Calibur games and the increase in the size of the female characters' breasts. It's uncanny.

So the question is: Is the latter happening in order to distract from the former? Or is the former a direct result of too much focus on the creation of the latter, i.e. 'style' (the term is used loosely here) over substance?

Its exactly this. Niche market fighting game developers are lazy.

Soul Calibur 4 was great story-wise but terrible improvements to the basic mechanic. Soul Cal 4 had Vadar. Its been boobs ever since:



Not a single thing I can point to as an improvement in the actual gameplay of 5.

This post has been edited by Dolmen Weeks: 04 February 2014 - 09:39 PM

[Aptorian]

She is probably like Samson and her strength is hidden in her boobs. As the series has progressed she has grown more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

[HiddenOne]

You guys are making me want to play some Soulcaliber - stop it, I say

[worry]

I notice, I mind, I find it disgusting, and if I were tyrant I'd have the creators of Dead or Alive thrown into a volcano.

[Silencer]

Is there not a potential market here, for say a Kickstarter indie-type game, which goes out on a limb and says "Fuck it, we're making a fighting game for all the people who don't like/object to the ridiculous characters (male, female, or even non-human) in all fighting games, or who just want a tad more realistic clothing!" ?

I mean...seriously. There's got to be enough people who'd want to play something like that to make it worthwhile. I know it's not exactly standard, but Persona 4: Arena (yes, Japanese!) was a damn sight more restrained on the appearance front for all characters than anything that has been mentioned so far. >.<

[Aptorian]

Fighting games, of a good quality anyway, are quite expensive. Skullgirls, a small fighting game that came out a few years ago, had a kickstarter just to add one extra characters to the game and they asked for a couple hundred thousand dollars.

Financing a good fighting game on kickstarter would cost at least a couple million.

[amphibian]

Bruce Lee was crazy ripped for his size. He was maybe 135 lbs and worked very hard to maintain his body fat percentage at a very low level and to eat right to keep the muscle on.

I didn't know QuickTidal was nine years older than me. I'm a man as well.

I think there's not really a market niche for a less exploitative and wholly new fighting game franchise. If one's going to put the work in to develop good characters, put thought in the story and trust the audience, it's easier just to make it a different type of game (fps, mmo, strategy etc). Those likely make vastly more money anyways.

[Gothos]

I'd say there's a LOT wrong with how fighting games portray everyone, not just females, but in different ways. Yeah, scantily clad and unpractical, that's right, you pretty much expect it these days as there's not variation from that model. Then you have males that are (almost) always crazy ripped and massive going barechested for fanservice for girls as well.
These are unrealistic, unreal, etc - sure.
But I approve. If I launch a fighting game I'm expecting everything to be completely ludicrous in every aspect fathomable. It's part of the fun.

[Illuyankas]

Skullgirls is a pretty good example of this where they intended to make a fighting game with the most comprehensible and usable mechanics to do all kinds of crazy cool shit, but made the entire cast scantily clad ladies cause 'that's just what dudes want'.


Basically any response to the 'media is aimed at a specific small crowd' situation that is 'double down on this tiny ever-shrinking audience' is doomed to financial obscurity.

Also Persona 4 Arena is indeed kinda great.

[Silencer]

Maybe Apt, on 05 February 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Fighting games, of a good quality anyway, are quite expensive. Skullgirls, a small fighting game that came out a few years ago, had a kickstarter just to add one extra characters to the game and they asked for a couple hundred thousand dollars.

Financing a good fighting game on kickstarter would cost at least a couple million.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that this was a total ripoff. One character should not cost "a couple hundred thousand dollars". Unless they went way out with specific, unique mo-cap, and even did the rigging from scratch, an add-on already has the controls, the wireframes, probably most of the textures can be recycled, it's literally just making the model and the moves. Unless someone was gloriously overpaid, or they had ludicrously expensive licenses to pay for, there is no way to justify that kind of cost.

I'm not going to dispute the figure of a couple million for a good fighting game, though. That's MUCH more reasonable. A startup would have to get the engine, build the mechanics from the ground up, balance and rebalance, figure out the control scheme, making all the textures, models, animations, story, voice acting, sounds, and so forth from scratch. For many characters (like, what, at least 8?). That is a pretty reasonable figure for all that. Licensing and man-hours alone would be a large cost.

But once that was all in place, anyone asking for anything remotely resembling 10% of the total cost of production is fleecing people. :S

[Grief]

Gothos, on 05 February 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Then you have males that are (almost) always crazy ripped and massive going barechested for fanservice for girls as well.

I don't really think that this is the main reason the males are portrayed like that. I think it's more to do with appealing to the male playerbase again.

I don't think many guys would claim to find the character design (of the men) off-putting in the same way women might object to the character design of the women.

Imo, it's less about all the female characters being pretty (like most of the men are attractive, and those that aren't tend to be portrayed as "joke" characters), and more about them all wearing ridiculously revealing clothes, to an extent that just doesn't apply to the guys.

[Stormcat]

Is she fighting in her bra and panties and heels because she is an object or because he is so much better than the guy that she can fight in a bra and panties and heels and still kick his ass?

It does bother me to some extent. I play World of Warcraft regularly and I like that I can customize my outfits. I noticed a lot of the girls I play with customize their outfits to be a bit.... revealing. So its not just for the guys. On the other hand they don't make pants that look like garter belts for male characters... which I would totally put on my male toon if I had one.

[Illuyankas]

The male designs are far more wish fulfillment than lady fanservice.

(oh wow this was the first suggestion when I googled that crappy webcomic to find this thing)

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 05 February 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

I didn't know QuickTidal was nine years older than me.

I know. I'm old as fuck now. My Bday was not a happy occasion. LOL

[Lycaenion]

Thanks for all the replies, you guys I've been discussing it with some of my class mates as well and they basically said that because fighting games like TEKKEN are aimed at predominately male and younger audiences (teenage boys) that those kinds of women and attires aren't going anywhere. Slap a hot chick on a game - even if she's got nothing to do with the story itself - and it will sell like hotcakes. Do you agree?

[Gothos]

Barely anything has anything to do with any sort of story in fighting games, Lycaenion. It's actually a lot more of an eye sore in online browser games - artwork is bound to bombard you with jiggly boobies and outfits skimpier than lingerie.

Take a game with any sort of depth and it gets different. Mass Effect series has, for the most part, done this more or less right - better than any I know of. Barring Samara's outfit from ME2 and Ashley from ME3 it's all very tame in that regard.

World of Warcraft armors have gotten more sane over the years and are very similar between the sexes. This also applies to SW:TOR. The Elder Scrolls games generally follow this too (not that there's no mods for "better" body models and skimpier armor, for those who want it, and there's plenty who do).

The only fighting game I've ever followed, Mortal Kombat, didn't use to have much in the way of fanservice apart from all the gore, but the latest installment gave female models seriously voluptuous bodies. It's kind of distracting, and a bit over the top, sure. Sure makes you want to play Jade more, though... (but seriously, victory animation using her weapon as a dancing pole? really? REALLY?). Then you've got the mixed, weird feelings with Mileena.......

Fanservice sells, and if RPGs (especially BioWare) are any indication, fanservice for girl gamers is on the rise. See: Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3. In general, fanservice indeed isn't going anywhere.

[amphibian]

I think the fanservice characters in fighting games aren't going anywhere, but there's many, many game series and single games that aren't fighting games and don't have fanservice characters that also do well. Having fanservice is NOT a required component of a successful game in most niches of the gaming market. People will always choose quality over boobs if it's a binary choice. The actual choice spectrum in fighting game features some sort of Mendoza line (taken from baseball statistics) in which the game quality deteriorates far enough that even boobs can't make it a palatable buy. I don't know where it is, but someone here probably can pinpoint the games that are just above it or below it.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 07 February 2014 - 01:45 PM

[Lycaenion]

Thanks guys for all the replies, I think I have enough now

[Gabriel Chase]

As a 38 year old man, I lost any feelings for female fighting game characters a long time ago. For a while now all that matters is the fighting style. Sure, I used to giggle at some women, felt embarrassed at others, wondered at the bizarre need for jiggly physics. Nowadays I will happily play Taki in Soul Calibur or Sarah Bryant in Virtua Fighter because of her fantastic techniques.

[Wolfy]

Silencer, on 05 February 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that this was a total ripoff. One character should not cost "a couple hundred thousand dollars". Unless they went way out with specific, unique mo-cap, and even did the rigging from scratch, an add-on already has the controls, the wireframes, probably most of the textures can be recycled, it's literally just making the model and the moves. Unless someone was gloriously overpaid, or they had ludicrously expensive licenses to pay for, there is no way to justify that kind of cost.

I'm not going to dispute the figure of a couple million for a good fighting game, though. That's MUCH more reasonable. A startup would have to get the engine, build the mechanics from the ground up, balance and rebalance, figure out the control scheme, making all the textures, models, animations, story, voice acting, sounds, and so forth from scratch. For many characters (like, what, at least 8?). That is a pretty reasonable figure for all that. Licensing and man-hours alone would be a large cost.

But once that was all in place, anyone asking for anything remotely resembling 10% of the total cost of production is fleecing people. :S

Actually by the end of the campaign it funded several characters for DLC release on console, the port, bonus stages and general game improvements. It was also 2d side fighter which takes significantly more work to implement well then modern 3d engine fighters

Regarding the original topic I think fighters have definitely gone down hill in character design overall since the late 90s early 00's when I played SFII, Soul Caliber 2/3, Guilty Gear, Tekken Tag a lot (university was next door to an arcade XD).
I tend to play female characters such as Julie, Cammy, Taki, Dizzy or May as they tend to be fast and agile or unique which I like and generally initially choose because I like their attitude, overall design or perceived playstyle over any thoughts of how alluring the outfit may actually be.

As someone who doesn't really play them anymore from the outside I think the fighting genre is rather confused, you have marketing that wants to generate visual appeal to young immature boys and a player base that is inherently super competitive. To me they'd logically be more concerned about combo's, moves and winning then sitting there drooling over X or Y character aka gameplay which from what I've heard has slowly gotten worse over time whilst the character design has gotten increasingly ridiculous. Heck the only time player likely mentally acknowledge a characters sex appeal is during the in victory/pre-game cut scenes that seem to be in the newer generation of fighters where they slap you in the face with it.