[Felisin Fatter]

I started a slow re-read, and want to use this thread to keep track of my questios, theories, etc. If people want to add stuff, I'd like that It'll mostly be a kind of stream-of-consciosness from me which I'll keep adding to.

No need to hide spoilers. (I haven't read all ICE books, but I don't mind spoilers for those either.)

Draconus
Question: What is he doing / trying to achieve? Het carved into his lintel stone 'there will be peace'. Sounds like threat to me - is this his goal? The Tiste have run out of resources, they're an old rotten civilization and there have been a few wars recently. Civil war seems likely under those circumstances - did Draconus arrive to prevent that (if so, he's doing a lousy job), to accelarate the process, to influence the outcome, or what?
Question: Why did he suddenly leave Kharkanas to go on a long trip? Can't he use his powers to travel faster if it's so dangerous to be away?

Background: There was this woman who (a very rare event) rose from lesser noble to higher noble, then she kept that position for 500 years. She seems to have no other family (Q: could this woman also have been an Azathanai?). An unspecified time ago she adopts Draconus as her son. This is how Draconus (who came from nowhere) enters Tiste society. Ten years ago, around the time of the Forkrul war, she 'dies suddenly' and Draconus inherits Dracons hold. Nobody likes or trusts him. He intimidates (and charms?) his way into the chair beside Mother Dark, who appears to be a high priest and Queen of the Tiste. It isn't clear if she did much governing before, but recently she's left all that stuff for Draconus, she 'puts him between herself and everyone else'. This appears to be what Draconus wants, but why? It works very well as a way to destabilize Tiste society.

Theory 1: Good but clumsy Draconus. Draconus wants peace for his 'children' the Tiste. He's trying to help the Tiste but he's very bad at it, being an extremely unsubtle type of person who's no good at politics or any kind of relationships and so he makes it worse and worse ttrying to fix things.
Theory 2: Responsible Draconus. Draconus made the Tiste or is in some other fashion responsible for them. The other Azathanai have told him he needs to fix his mess (all the recent wars, the pollution of the world, etc.) He's doing this, probably by causing civil war to reduce the Tiste number and reduce the civilization in general. (It's getting out of hand, though.)
Theory 3: Draconus didn't choose this. Mother Dark summoned him, because she wanted someone to help her govern, so she could go away to explore chaos or whatever it is she wants. So he finds himself among the Tiste, bound to Mother Dark, and he's trying to do something about it? Or he fell for her genuinely / agrees with her goals and is trying to help her?


Arathan
He's capable, smart, strong both physically and mentally. Yet he completely lacks self-confidence and considers himself such an embarrassing disappointment that he keeps chewing off his fingertops. An interesting combination. There is the mystery of his mother, most probably another Azathanai. There's the mystery of who or what he later becomes (as it's hinted thet he is in the Malazan books). He's associated with water and ice, he's a natural swordsman, he has empathy even for unsympathetic people like Sagander or his sisters, and for animals. He seems to have a deep-buried hatred for his father, though.
Question: Is he actually older than Spite/Envy/Malice? Or does he only believe that? What could that mean for who his mother is?


Feren
It is mentioned there is an 'odd tilt to her eyes', unlike her brother. Is she possibly not a full Tiste either? Making later mixing of bloods even more interesting?

[nacht]

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Theory 1: Good but clumsy Draconus. Draconus wants peace for his 'children' the Tiste. He's trying to help the Tiste but he's very bad at it, being an extremely unsubtle type of person who's no good at politics or any kind of relationships and so he makes it worse and worse ttrying to fix things.

I would support this. I guess it is not easy being a lonely uber-powerful person.

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Theory 2: Responsible Draconus. Draconus made the Tiste or is in some other fashion responsible for them. The other Azathanai have told him he needs to fix his mess (all the recent wars, the pollution of the world, etc.) He's doing this, probably by causing civil war to reduce the Tiste number and reduce the civilization in general. (It's getting out of hand, though.)

I am having a hard time understanding how this would be "responsible" :-)

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Theory 3: Draconus didn't choose this. Mother Dark summoned him, because she wanted someone to help her govern, so she could go away to explore chaos or whatever it is she wants. So he finds himself among the Tiste, bound to Mother Dark, and he's trying to do something about it? Or he fell for her genuinely / agrees with her goals and is trying to help her?

Why cant their relationship be explained by simple old fashioned love.

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He seems to have a deep-buried hatred for his father, though.

I thought he was more afraid of disappointing his father. I think he suffers from a deep insecurity of feeling unwanted (having been left by his mother and not cared by his father). But most children have found an occasion to hate their parents.

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Question: Is he actually older than Spite/Envy/Malice? Or does he only believe that? What could that mean for who his mother is?

Here is a discussion on Arathan's age.
http://forum.malazan...0-arathans-age/

[Felisin Fatter]

Now halfway chapter two.

nacht, on 09 December 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

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Theory 2: Responsible Draconus. Draconus made the Tiste or is in some other fashion responsible for them. The other Azathanai have told him he needs to fix his mess (all the recent wars, the pollution of the world, etc.) He's doing this, probably by causing civil war to reduce the Tiste number and reduce the civilization in general. (It's getting out of hand, though.)

I am having a hard time understanding how this would be "responsible" :-)

Yep, I was being very cynical there... as it is the very cynical option. Doesn't seem to fit Draconus so far.


Urusander & Osserc
These mirror Draconus and Arathan. Very similar. Urusander is a war veteran who now wants peace and is fascinated by 'just laws'. He also climbed the ranks of Tiste society, which is typically very stagnant, so his power is also dubious and he's distrusted. His 'House' is built on lies, just like Draconus'.
Osserc is an insecure boy without a mother, ignored by his father and given a lousy person for a 'tutor'. He also has huge self-respect issues but seems basically a promising type of guy. Though I'm pretty sure Arathan would kick his ass. Both seem very tragic, doomed characters already, but then, everyone in this book is...

Hun Raal
Very unsympathetic guy, but I like how he's doing basically the same thing as Draconus: They don't want war, they're manipulating things in order to prevent it - but if there's to be war, they mean to win it. And that latter attitude is generally what causes wars to happen (see also: history). Also, his feeling of the people being ungrateful and lacking respect for the veterans who suffered for them is easy to empathize with.

Hidden Words
This theme struck me especially. First there's the bridge that Draconus gifted to Kharkanas, which may or may not have words on the underside, visible only to the river-dwellers (Shake?). And then some very dark, bloody foreshadowing lined to them. These words may also be 'There will be peace', as the phrase is repeated here.
Second, there's the Words on Nimanders gravestone, which are placed facing the corpse (Q: Does this hint that he isn't actually dead? Seems unlikely as he's recently buried.). Silchas is very curious, but for now leaves the grave undisturbed. What does he expect to find? Then they say something like 'these words are for Mother Dark' (who Nimander always served, whatever that implies).
And more in general, echoing it, is the tradition that Tiste are forbidden to learn the Azathanai language, so they can't read it. And every house has secret (hidden) words at its heart.

Anomander, Silchas, Andarist, Hish Tulla
It's weird imagining Anomander as this golden-skinned, dark-haired man. It´s cute imagining a very young Anomander with a very young Hish Tulla. Here we have four actually charming, nice, sympathetic, physically flawless characters together. Highly unusual for Erikson Of course, we know they're all doomed too. Also: Anomander as a very young man (boy?) became a soldier (he isn't in the list of commanders), I presume in the Forulkan war. Q: How long ago is that, exaclty? Do we have a number? Must be between 10 and 30 years ago, right? That number + about 18 is the current age of Anomander and Hish, the brothers are a bit younger. Q: Did they also fight in the forulkan war?
So, here we get two of the biggest influences on Anomanders personality: his first love and his first war. Very interesting.

In general
I like how Erikson contrasts the way people view themselves with the way others view them. I like how Kadaspala genuinely thinks everyone is equal yet takes the servants all around him completely for granted, being a highly privileged person himself. Great writing and very subtle. (More about Kadaspala later.)

[Avernite]

Felisin Fatter, on 09 December 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Theory 1: Good but clumsy Draconus. Draconus wants peace for his 'children' the Tiste. He's trying to help the Tiste but he's very bad at it, being an extremely unsubtle type of person who's no good at politics or any kind of relationships and so he makes it worse and worse ttrying to fix things.

I find this unlikely, based on DoD/TCG. In those books, Mael basically says 'well, imagine Draconus plotted to force Anomander Rake to release him at the precisely right time?' with some huffing and puffing by the Errant et al. about how they can never be sure he planned that far and that subtly. IF this theory is correct, you'd expecty them to immediately say 'oh come on, that bumbling fool?'

[Felisin Fatter]

True. A deeper plan makes more sense, I just don't see it so far. Probably because I'm a short-sighted mortal Also perhaps, because we only have part one of the trilogy

One thing does point to it, and that's how much Draconus' House is mirroring / balancing the important Tiste players. On this reread it strikes me strongly. If he is doing that on purpose, that's... pretty disturbing to be honest.
- Draconus: counterpoint to Urusander, potential husband of Mother Dark
- Envy, Spite, Malice: Counterpopints to the three Purake brothers. Symbolically, literally - this is becoming a central question in my reread. Did Draconus / the Azathanai create these three on purpose as a balance for those three? As the Purakes are so incredibly charming, heroic, etc. They are not flawless, but flaws they surely lack are: envy, spite and malice.
- Arathan: yet to become clear I think. Osserc possibly? Or perhaps he's a bit of an accident, a wild card?

Envy, Spite and Malice
Haven't appeared much yet in my reread, yet are central. Is Draconus actively stabilizing the Tiste society ('destroying civilization' )? Are these three symbolic reminders of the envy, spite and malice he's sowing? Because that's a reading that makes sense. Or is it the opposite, are they reminders of what he's trying to avoid, trying to suppress? And is their coming into power the sign that he failed? Waht does the death (?) of Malice mean? Will she be back somehow?

Nimander Purake and sons
He was an important noble who 'served mother Dark most loyally'. What does that mean? Was he her lover, her son, her priest, her royal assassin, or what? He died two years ago, no idea how - in her service? Did he die for her on a secret mission or something? Because her response to his death was to elevate his three sons to the highest ranks. In this case, it seems they are literally his sons, at least they certainly believe so. Again, no mention of a mother. What's with that?? Where are all these bloody mothers? Is it perhaps just one person, dropping off babies with their bemused fathers, then moving on to the next?

(Of course, now we meet the Drukorlat's and find out it's even worse if you do have a mother.)

Question: is there even one family in this book that includes (alive and together):
- A mother
- A father
- A child

It seems to me that when there's a mother, the father is dead (or left). When there's a father, the mother isn't even mentioned. And when they are both present, they send the child away to be fostered.

[Felisin Fatter]

Halfway chapter three (I note these down as they occur to me, no particular system to it).

Timeline
One question just got answered: The Purakes all went to war together. Nimander, Anomander, Silchas and Andarist. Sandalath was their hostage at the time, and had been there for a year. Definitelely the forulkan wars then. Also gives us an idea of the timeline. Sandalath was 7-11 at the time, assuming she's a bit over 20 now and considering the ages of the other hostages we see. Anomander had been with his first girlfriend for a year, so he is... 18-21? Sure makes his brothers awfully young to become soldiers.
So my second answer (sorta): the forulkan war started 10-15 years ago and lasted at least three years.
Nimander returns 'soon after' - less than a year I guess? - 'crippled and broken'. We know he died two years ago, so he either recoverd (slowly?) or more likely lived in a broken state for another ten years. The sons stay away (it is suggested) for the rest of the three years Sandalath spends there. That's where I get the idea that the war lasted this long - could be a false assumption in there.

Sandalath is sent back around the same time her father goes home (the end of the war?), not sure if that's a coincidence. Father doesn't even wait for her return but kills himself after only a month at home. Said home has become rather depressing, as it seems the whole village was drafted and everyone is dead, wounded and/or traumatized. And Nerys was not all capable of running the place in his absence.

The Drukorlat family
This part of the story is like a gothic horror story. The father who was away at war, came home only to promptly kill himself (or be murdered?), possibly under the influence of his awful wife. The crumbling house with the burnt-down stable, nearly all the servants fled, the creepy little boy constantly enacting betrayal and death. Cold Nerys, who seems to have no love. Pale, quiet Sandalath, who seems to have no fight.
Even before the war, this family had issues. Sandalaths early memories are: a mother, shutting doors in her face, keeping her away from her father. A father, pacing in his room at night. Hints of a new sibling, who never materialized. Then she's sent away to a place where she's actually given some attention, which makes her feel like a queen (showing how neglected she was before). Nerys seems to not even like her daughter, she lies to her about everything and hurts her thoughtlessly. Nerys quotes Gallan (twice even!): 'the wounded will wound', and seems to be her. She's wounded deeply and now hurts everyone else. She says that she wants her house to rise again, but doesn't actually do anything about it. She can't even run a household, it seems. A very difficult character, I wonder what caused her to be so damaged? Hopefully we get a little more background on her later.
Sandalath is difficult too, she's so very passive. It's easier to see why she's so very damaged, but it's hard to sympathize with her lack of action. She doesn't fight back, not even for the sake of her son, she doesn't doubt her mother's lies, etc. I guess she's very depressed.
Orfantal: I have problems with the idea that he's five years old, but I guess we should blame Gallan for forgetting about childhood after thousands of years.

[Felisin Fatter]

Took a pretty long break to read other books but I'm back Just gonna keep forging on ahead I guess. (See what I did there?)


The Shake
We meet the Shake, and they're pretty nasty and desperate too. One is a nearly sociopathic assassin, the 'mother' plots to steal babies (after murdering the parents) and they all worship a conveniently dead god. T'riss casually resurrects said god, who of course isn't happy but who actually seems a relatively nice character so far. The Shakes main oncern is to convince the MD cult that they did not just start a religious war. I wonder how that will play out in the end. Are there any mentions in the main series about Dorssan Ryl as a living spirit/god?




Emral Lanear
The high priest of MD, much favored it seems. She loves Anomander & bros, and loved their father. She seems to have known their mother intimately and to not like her much. Possibly she is their mother, or a close relation (grandmother? aunt?). It seems unlikely from her thoughts that's MD herself could be their mother. However, if she & Nimander are their parent, why would it need to be a big repressed secret? There appears to be only love so far between Emral, Nimander & MD. Does anyone else read it differently?

[Felisin Fatter]

Heh, my reread took a big hiatus... but let's pretend I was here just yesterday

So...

The Tiste royal line & the Throne of Kharkanas / Night / Kurald Galain
I must have skipped over this on my original read, but it is really quite interesting. T'riss asks the two shady Shake dudes (Caplo Dreem the assassin and Warlock Resh) about the royal family - she seems to know next to nothing abot the Tiste - and they answer her somewhat evasively but don't seem to be lying.
This is their story: there was a queen until fairly recently (under a century, probably?) who was married to a non-noble very capable warrior. She loved him a lot. There was a war and the king was fatally wounded; the queen and her Royal Wardens went into the battle to retrieve his body. The queen was never seen after, not even a body, the king's dead body was found. (Waitaminute... was this king maybe Nimander?? Or a previous avatar of Draconus??)
There was no heir, the queen was the last of her line. There was some kin: MD was her half-sister (which side though?), she was considered but rejected on the grounds of 'being unsuited for politics, esoteric interests, too romantic and idealistic'. Says the shady Shake dude, so who knows what this really means. My guess is, MD was always a scholarly obsessive mage.
The two Shake leaders (high priest and priestess) were also close kin. They appear to be siblings, so their spritual 'marriage' is not the consummated type. They made no claim on the throne, though they probably could.
There is no Queen or King of the Tiste now. The throne is empty - maybe, sorta. Because it is now 'The Throne of Night', MD's brand new religion claimed it. MD may or may not have claimed this throne, as it's in a dark room and nobody can tell where she sits... (Sounds like she and Kellanved would get along brilliantly ) Nobody seems to be very interested in figuring out who the actual heir would be.
This last comment by the Shake assassin caught my attention: "The age of kings and queens is past, warlock. The lesson was lost on no one. By love aggrieved she cast the realm into chaos. This shall not happen again." That seems to refer to the last queen and her husband, but what if it refers to another 'she' (too)??


Also: WHAT happened to the queen? No body, really. Is she still a prisoner of whoever they were at war with at the time?

This is another one for the 'times are a-changing' list. Many recent upheavals for the Tiste (all connected, but I can't quite make out how as the chronology is so vague):
- There was a lot of war and a lot of dying and horrible trauma in those wars. Whole areas are falling into ruin and famine for lack of functional adult population.
- The monarchy has died off. (Also in war.) There has been little interest in reviving it.
- Mother Dark became a Goddess and is in the process of starting a new religion. She has yet to sanctify her temple (which she took from the dead rivergod).
- K'rul opened the paths and thereby changed the way magic works. The mages are still adjusting.
- Many upstarts (all martially talented) are shaking up the calcified old noble families: the Purake brothers, Draconus, Scara Bandaris and more.
- The vitr is creeping on threateningly and creepy stuff is crawling out of it. (Soon, dragons?)

And now T'riss has arrived to shake things up more, reviving the river god, activating the Shake, blessing or cursing people left and right and generally making everyone even more nervous.

This post has been edited by Felisin Fatter: 19 July 2015 - 07:21 PM

[Felisin Fatter]

Mother Dark, the GoddessAfter gifting Anomander with the awesomeness (?) of white hair T'riss has an audience with MD and Syntara. After just a few moments , Syntara stumbles out, all bleached and offended and she leaves. Warlock Resh informs the others that time was twisted in there by T'riss and days might have passed for them (or not). And that T'riss spilled some vitr in there. When Anomander and Emral enter the throne room, they can suddenly see in the darkness. MD is definitely sitting on the throne now and says the temple is now sanctified. T'riss left with a teleport - she was really showing off her power here!
She blesses Anomander and Emral, turning them black except for A's hair. Which bothers MD, as does A's parentage which she is very vague about though even the vaguest mention really upsets Emral. More hints that Emral could be their real mother, but that it's best kept secret for some painful reason.
The priesthood of MD is not too happy, since they have a goddess but no religion so they don't know what to do.
Then, she asks Anomander to give her peace (ie. no civil war) which he considers an impossible request, especially with Draconus away and unable to help. Mention of Draconus upsets MD a lot- did he leave without her permission?
Anyone who now comes to her gets turned into a Tiste Andii who is totally black and can see in darkness.


Crazy theory: Draconus is is the Rake brothers mother. (Emral sees their father's face in them, so I'm assuming Nimander is the actual father.) He came to Nimander as a woman. Painfult to Emral, who loved Nimander, and perhaps MD did too. She had triplets (seems to be a thing with azathanai) and left, possibly wiping the kid's memories considering Anomanders response to that question about remembering his mother or wanting to know about her.
rIt has a nice symmetry: Draconus would have 7 kids this way. Two triplets who mirror/cancel each other in so many ways. And Arathan, who seems to represent doubt or something - he may be meant as a peacemaker.


Crazier alternative theory: Nimander was the last queen's beloved husband (though he also served her sister MD at the same time, twisted family...) This does mean the Shake dudes lied about his death, but maybe they think 'broken' is as good as dead (maybe he was in a coma for ten years??). And after she sacrifices herself for him, everyone is so upset they disown the sons and wipe their memories because for some reason they don't want them on the throne. I can't quite buy this, but it would be interesting...
It could work if 'Mother Dark' does not refer to the specific person we met, but simply means 'queen of the tiste' so we misread some earlier pronouncemennts... hmmm....


Origin of the Liosan
This one is highly ironic, we see here how the origin of the high and mighty liosan and the great 'Father Light' is base ambition, lust for power, jealousy and manipulation. Syntara and Hun Raal are very unpleasant; I expect they'll end with a knife in eachtothers backs. Syntara now has the power (through vitr) to turn Tiste intoTiste Liosan.


Questions:
Whose idea was it to make MD a goddess?
What happened to the old river god, long ago; why were all the memories of those days destroyed? (Guilt indeed?)
Who is Anomanders mother, why doesn't he remember her (as the oldest child) and why doesn't he want to know who she was/is? Emral and MD do know and are unhappy about the implications, why? They both hint at telling, but shy away from the consequences, why?
What happened to the queen, where is she? Which war was it she disappeared in, also the Forulkan one?

[Andorion]

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Crazy theory: Draconus is is the Rake brothers mother. (Emral sees their father's face in them, so I'm assuming Nimander is the actual father.) He came to Nimander as a woman. Painfult to Emral, who loved Nimander, and perhaps MD did too. She had triplets (seems to be a thing with azathanai) and left, possibly wiping the kid's memories considering Anomanders response to that question about remembering his mother or wanting to know about her.rIt has a nice symmetry: Draconus would have 7 kids this way. Two triplets who mirror/cancel each other in so many ways. And Arathan, who seems to represent doubt or something - he may be meant as a peacemaker.

That would make Envy Rake's half sister. Given their subsequent history, ....eeww.


Nice post and ideas. Its been some time since Forge of Darkness. Might have to pick it up again.

[Felisin Fatter]

Reading between the lines; what is actually happening?

About halfway through the book, trying to get a view of the bigger picture.

- Location: It is a continent, with several areas. The Tiste part (Kurald Galain), the Jaghut part (including the abandoned city Omtose Phellack), an ara belonging to the Azathenai, a Forulkan part (whatever the Forkrul warren is called... slips my mind), an arctic part where Jheleck and Jheck live (wolf shapeshifters), a distant area where Thel Akai live, idem for the Imass.
In the Tiste part is a large river that used to be worshiped as a god, some remnant forests with a remnant 'primitive' tiste population and the 'first city', Kharkanas. In there is a citadel that once was a temple to the river god, since it's death has grown into a royal palace and has recently been converted into a temple for the deified semi-queen Mother Dark.
The history of this continent stretches away into myth (and it's people can live for a thousand years, so that is a looong history). For example, the tiste forgot how the river god died. It seems there was peace and plenty for most of that time, leading to stagnation of the civilizations. That is now falling apart fast, probably because of resource exhaustion. Things had become unsustainable and this, I think, caused the Azathanai/gods to take action.
There is another continent, where the High King rules, he is rumored to be sailing from there right now.

- K'rul - magic, (all?) life: he spilled his own blood to open pathways to other dimensions (?), changing how magic works. My guess is, he's preparing for evacuation (which we know is what will happen). However, his new pathways immediately get abused, innocent blood is spilled in them and K'rul is in serious trouble, maybe even dying.

- Olar Ethil - Imass: she performed the ritual to make bonecasters, i.e. shape-shifters. To stop the Imass from hunting all the great beasts into extinction (either too late, or it didn't help much). I think this means she is already a soletaken dragon herself at this point, also because her name is already 'Olar Ethil' and she seems strongly bound to the Imass. This might mean the first source of Dragon blood is already in the past in this book, leaving open the possibility that Draconus and his kids are also draconic. And, because of the whole balance thing, it would not surprise me if she's already in love with Tool at this point (mirroring Draconus and MD).
Then there is her creature Burn, an Imass witch/ascendant, who sleeps to dream a world for all the people - maybe this is Wu? (If in later books she is still in that cave, somewhere in Kurald Galain or Kurald Emuhrlan, that would explain why it is so vital to defend those warrens!).

- Draconus - Tiste: he is pretending to be a normal Tiste, he loves Mother Dark. He wants peace, whatever that means. He tries to win/keep MD's love by giving her stupidly powerful gifts, which seems kinda... clueless. Yet he is known as a planner, so perhaps he has reasons?

- Olar + Draconus: there is history and old love between them, but also darker feelings. They made the evil triplet together, though those clearly belong to Draconus.

- Urusander / Hunn Raal / Syntara / Osserc / The Legion: claim to want peace, but they don't mind starting a war and a genocide or two to get it. Urusander is being used here, as he doesn't care much for power and truly wants peace. The Legion are a bunch of hard damaged veterans who can't deal with peace. They won the war, but are now a threat to their own.

- MD / Draconus / The rake brothers / allies: What MD wants is unclear. Knowledge and power I'd guess, to save her people from extinction. Maybe she is wit K'rul, preparing for evacuation. Maybe she wants divine power so she can start all over, but this time better. Who knows. For now, she wants peace but is too busy to do something about it. Her allies are all forging weapons and armies because they expect civil war soon. They are also veterans, but the types who are sick of war and would not commit genocide.

- Shake: Neutral so far, but also desperate and willing to kill to get what they need. They are not happy their god is back and their leaders might be dying.

- T'riss (Queen of dreams): seems to be there to make everyones dreams come true (and how happy and grateful they are! ). Resurrect the river god, deify MD, give Syntara the power of bleach, etc. Looks like she's lighting the fuse.

- Hood: has lost his wife and declares war on Death itself - and allies are actually flocking to him.


Possible inconsistency:
When Draconus hears an Azathenai committed murder (Karish), spilled blood, he is appalled. Yet we know he fought in the Forulkan war and made quite an impression, so didn't he kill a bunch of Forkrul then? Or did he only give orders and doesn't that count? Or is war different?

[Felisin Fatter]

The Azathanai
This part is still completely baffling, even on a reread. Old Man Moon guy is awesome but I have no clue what he's about, Olar Ethil is creepy but very mysterious, the stuff that happens is very nightmare-like and weird. Some interesting bits and pieces:
- Draconus finally accepted Arathan as his son. This gave the boy a huge boost, he actually commanded the guards and stood up for himself! Seems Draconus also (partly?) unchained him.
- Arathan finds out he's gonna be a daddy and he freaks out. Seren leaves before they even speak to eachother again.
- Olar Ethil confirmed she's the mother of the evil triplet. She also said to her they were only 'three memories of pain', which one could read to mean they are not triplets, but three separate conceptions. Not sure if it matters.
- It is interesting that her name is already 'Olar Ethil' here. It could be an anachronism by our narrator. Or it could mean she is already a dragon (or always was?). I posted something in crazy theories as a result She mentions being bothered by the bonecasters, I suspect this means she already performed the soletaken ritual on them - and herself. She also seems strongly bound to the Imass and not even in control anymore of her own physical shape. She complains a lot about it, wanting to be prettier. She seems very unstable emotionally.
- Olar Ethil finds Arathan's name hilarious. Why?? We know it means 'walks on water', so maybe his mom has to do with water/ice/the opposite (fire??). Or it could be because MD's original name is (as some people theorize) Aranatha, so he named his son sorta after her. (Yet another gift she is unlikely to appreciate...) Or option three.
- Olar doesn't ask what he named their daughters.
- Olar asks Draconus if he's gonna see Arathan's mom now, so she believes this is an option at this point. Could mean it's not T'riss or Ardata, but some other Azathanai who is still around (Kilimandaros?).
- Also Arathan has a fascinating dream about babies floating up and his mom leaving for the sea - no clue what this means. And Olar eats a man's head and makes him like it. Right.

[Kalam&Quick]

Felisin Fatter, on 23 July 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Reading between the lines; what is actually happening?

- Hood: has lost his wife and declares war on Death itself - and allies are actually flocking to him.


Possible inconsistency:
When Draconus hears an Azathenai committed murder (Karish), spilled blood, he is appalled. Yet we know he fought in the Forulkan war and made quite an impression, so didn't he kill a bunch of Forkrul then? Or did he only give orders and doesn't that count? Or is war different?

i think with this its not about the murder itself but about WHO they murdered.
We don't know much about hood's current relationship with the world(as he is not yet the god of death) but so far he seems to be a pretty powerful, influential jag hut, seeing as even draconus has a bit of hesitation when going to confront hood, and even kind of seems a little worried(or at least concerned) at the fact that he could have an enemy out of Hood( who up until now we know and just a normal jaghut, and not originally a azanthai like draconus/olar ethil/killamandaros/gothos(maybe?)/ grizzly fart etc)
I mean to have draconus a little shaken at possibly being his enemy, means he not only must be incredibly power, even for a jag hut, but also that he is very well known.

I think the situation is different with the forulkan war because the forulkans invaded the tiste as a people, versus say, Killy walking in and murdering mother dark or draconus in cold blood without any warning or reason.
errestas basicly blind sided not only karish, but also Hood/the Jaghut with this murder, because 1, there was no tension/fights between the jaghuts/hood and the azathania and from what we can see, and 2. was there any real reason for them to be there to kill karish? (based on draconus' response when finding out, its somewhat obvious that he was not expecting/needing anybody to die in order to make the Darkness frisbee)

And

Also back to my first point, i think with the forulkan war, that was more a sqabble between the races them selves, and simply had draconus helping the taste out(as I'm sure Killy was there helping out the forulkan) similar to how the tiste and the jackels fought a few wars, or like the jaghuts living with the dog runners, Etc. They were more situations where the peoples/races themselves started a fight, the "gods" were there just to help there respective race/clean up after everything.

[Kalam&Quick]

Felisin Fatter, on 25 July 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

The Azathanai.
- Olar asks Draconus if he's gonna see Arathan's mom now, so she believes this is an option at this point. Could mean it's not T'riss or Ardata, but some other Azathanai who is still around (Kilimandaros?).

ummmm...if kilimandaros is his mother, i don't think she would have nearly begged draconus to let her bone him in the middle of the Jaghut tower. i mean she was literally pleading with him to let her do it with him, and even went as far as to grab at his crotch.


I mean kilimandaros is pretty weird, but i don't think she is that weird. but then again, i don't know. it is possible. i mean, solar over here is eating peoples faces with her belly and making them like it, and naked girls are walking out of oceans of mercury so i guess anything is possible.

[Andorion]

Kalam&Quick, on 31 January 2016 - 01:34 AM, said:

Felisin Fatter, on 23 July 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Reading between the lines; what is actually happening?

- Hood: has lost his wife and declares war on Death itself - and allies are actually flocking to him.


Possible inconsistency:
When Draconus hears an Azathenai committed murder (Karish), spilled blood, he is appalled. Yet we know he fought in the Forulkan war and made quite an impression, so didn't he kill a bunch of Forkrul then? Or did he only give orders and doesn't that count? Or is war different?

i think with this its not about the murder itself but about WHO they murdered.
We don't know much about hood's current relationship with the world(as he is not yet the god of death) but so far he seems to be a pretty powerful, influential jag hut, seeing as even draconus has a bit of hesitation when going to confront hood, and even kind of seems a little worried(or at least concerned) at the fact that he could have an enemy out of Hood( who up until now we know and just a normal jaghut, and not originally a azanthai like draconus/olar ethil/killamandaros/gothos(maybe?)/ grizzly fart etc)
I mean to have draconus a little shaken at possibly being his enemy, means he not only must be incredibly power, even for a jag hut, but also that he is very well known.

I think the situation is different with the forulkan war because the forulkans invaded the tiste as a people, versus say, Killy walking in and murdering mother dark or draconus in cold blood without any warning or reason.
errestas basicly blind sided not only karish, but also Hood/the Jaghut with this murder, because 1, there was no tension/fights between the jaghuts/hood and the azathania and from what we can see, and 2. was there any real reason for them to be there to kill karish? (based on draconus' response when finding out, its somewhat obvious that he was not expecting/needing anybody to die in order to make the Darkness frisbee)

And

Also back to my first point, i think with the forulkan war, that was more a sqabble between the races them selves, and simply had draconus helping the taste out(as I'm sure Killy was there helping out the forulkan) similar to how the tiste and the jackels fought a few wars, or like the jaghuts living with the dog runners, Etc. They were more situations where the peoples/races themselves started a fight, the "gods" were there just to help there respective race/clean up after everything.

Also consider that Draconus is living incognito among the Tiste. He probably didn't even use his powers in the Forulkan war but simply played the part of a Tiste noble

[Kalam&Quick]

that is very true, He mostly likely would not have revealed much, other wise he would be more then just a disliked noble, i mean if they saw what he could unleash, they would either out MD and make him Father Dark or would run from him as fast and as far as possible haha.

because it was hinted at that if he were to get into an all out fight (i forgot against who the reference was) but that it would raise the sees and shatter the continent and worse.

[ritchiediaz]

I'm on a re-read as well and think there are many great points in this thread.

Once I'm back home I will make some more detailed observations / comments but I definitely agree that Emral Lanear could well be the mother of the brothers Purake.

[Kanese S's]

Felisin Fatter, on 23 July 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Possible inconsistency:
When Draconus hears an Azathenai committed murder (Karish), spilled blood, he is appalled. Yet we know he fought in the Forulkan war and made quite an impression, so didn't he kill a bunch of Forkrul then? Or did he only give orders and doesn't that count? Or is war different?

Well, we treat war differently, don't we?

Just because a soldier killed enemy soldiers in battle doesn't mean that he's cool with a member of his family going and randomly murdering someone.

[PLUGO]

Just finished my Re-Read of FOD wow so much to process.

First thoughts . . .

I assumed the Azathenai & the Jag Hut are equally powerful and basically kept out of each other's way particularly after Jag hut society collapsed. They both seemed to spend their immortality creating lesser races, who now thanks to Kr'ul have begun to ascend into true power themselves. Burn among the Dog Runners and Mother Dark among the Tiste. I figured that's why Draconus was appalled both by the murder of a Jag Hut (had any of them been known to die before this?) and his connection to that murder.

I'm wondering if Draconus's plan with gifting the gate of darkness to the Tiste is a means of securing their future. His reaction to Krul making magic available to all beings beyond the Azathenai & the Jag Hut is to lay claim to darkness, presumably his realm of influence, in the name of the Tiste. For some reason he didn't consider that Errastas would be inspired by the both Draconus & Krul and use blood magic to try an claim an area of influence for himself.


Wild Idea: I occasionally wondered if Malice would end up being Kettle and the events depicted here are actually happening in the distant past upon the continent of Lether.

[Kanese S's]

PLUGO, on 14 July 2016 - 12:47 AM, said:

Just finished my Re-Read of FOD wow so much to process.

First thoughts . . .

I assumed the Azathenai & the Jag Hut are equally powerful and basically kept out of each other's way particularly after Jag hut society collapsed. They both seemed to spend their immortality creating lesser races, who now thanks to Kr'ul have begun to ascend into true power themselves. Burn among the Dog Runners and Mother Dark among the Tiste. I figured that's why Draconus was appalled both by the murder of a Jag Hut (had any of them been known to die before this?) and his connection to that murder.

I'm wondering if Draconus's plan with gifting the gate of darkness to the Tiste is a means of securing their future. His reaction to Krul making magic available to all beings beyond the Azathenai & the Jag Hut is to lay claim to darkness, presumably his realm of influence, in the name of the Tiste. For some reason he didn't consider that Errastas would be inspired by the both Draconus & Krul and use blood magic to try an claim an area of influence for himself.


Wild Idea: I occasionally wondered if Malice would end up being Kettle and the events depicted here are actually happening in the distant past upon the continent of Lether.

Holy shit I hadn't even considered that for Malice. I mean, might not be true. But it would be awesome.