[Ghennan]

So, after a catch-up, I'm not really sure why Jalan stuck in my mind, but on a re-read I don't find him particularly scummy. And Cast has posted basically nothing. Monok's modkill has kind of taken the wind out of my sails, I was fairly sure we were on to something with Monok and Ultama, and suddenly it's all up in the air again.

Grasp is ringing some bells for me, and that drive-by vote was pretty scummy, but I need more time to articulate what it is that bothers me, and right now I need to go to bed.

I'm leaving my vote on Fanderay, because I think the link is interesting, and I need more time to decide how I feel about Ultama.

Vote Fanderay.

Night all!

[Ultama]

That is two votes for Fanderay. I am going to have a look at him.

I will quote and post below;

Day one, page one Fanderay posts a lot of posts. 7 posts on the first page. Call it what you will but it is basically filler. Fluff.

Day One page 2. He votes for me. This is his last post on day one. He said he was catching up but didn't comment on anything else for the rest of that day. The vote came across, to me, at least as a joke vote. It's not something you are serious on to lynch someone for. What irks me, is he says that he is catching up but then does not return until day 2.

Fanderay, on 22 October 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

just like no one's dumb enough to WIFOM on Day 1?

vote Ultama

catching up

Day 2. Page 4, post 160. He highlights Monok's self vote. That is the first thing he picks up on.

Quote

ok, wtf was this?

Does he mention the no lynch, or little amounts of votes, or anything regarding Togg or even the first part of my analysis on Cast. No. He goes straight to what I said about Monok. That is fairly narrow minded of him.

Quote

so, someone grabbing hteir toys and leaving and obstructing town from lynching in the process is... town?

I don't see the logic. If you're town, you ALWAYS play for the team. Even if though your team is full of retards. Just because you're not being listened to doesn't mean you have the right to fuck up everyone else.

And, realistically, that's what MO's self-vote did. It made sure we won't lynch Day 1.

I really don't see how anyone can look at that and consider it "town play"

I underline this. I know I mentioned that Fanderay didn't vote when he did but I don't think he played for town on day one. He was not part of any discussion on lynches and he did a drive by wifom vote on me and disappeared until day two. That irks me quite a lot. That is not very town like. I am not saying his points are wrong but I am saying he comes across as scummy.

Sticks with his day one vote and votes for me again. The only two players he has mentioned all game so far is Monok for the removal of vote and me. So is this very town like? Are we not meant to be looking for scum. Do we do this by focusing on just one player?

He then paints Monok as the symp and I am the scum. This post goes in his favor because it does make sense.

Quote

just, FYI, at this point you had FOUR votes-Pallid, Me, MO and Ghen

so then Trake bitches about lack of participation and puts a "for now" vote on MO.

MO then does a craptastic emosplosion, self votes and tells us he's fucking off for the night, WHILE EFFECTIVELY SHUTTING DOWN THE ONLY LIKELY TRAIN.

the reason his self-vote is suspicious is fuck is not just because it's a dumbass move, but because it's a dumbass move to justify removing from the only viable train atm. And since it's a self-vote out of the fucking blue, it's designed to have people talk about it, rather than about who he was removing from--which is exactly what you'd have us do.

I dunno if you're scum. you may be getting framed by MO. but MO's play screams symp,, so lynching him I'd expect town CF, which isn't helpful at this stage. coupled with your play on Day 2, it's enough in my mind to warrant voting you.

Now Fanderay is more involved in the game, his activity is once again up to a higher level. He is communicating back and forth with me, replying to Monok and Jalan. This period of day two makes Fanderay look good.


YET

since then what have we had? Two posts from him saying

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

that was anti-climactic.

and

Quote

you know you're a humanities major when......

So when we all need to pull together and figure out who we are going to lynch, he disappears again and doesn't give us his ideas. A pattern has emerged. Be active when it doesn't matter but when it counts disappear.

Vote Fanderay

[Trake]

Ultama, on 24 October 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

So when we all need to pull together and figure out who we are going to lynch, he disappears again and doesn't give us his ideas. A pattern has emerged. Be active when it doesn't matter but when it counts disappear.

Vote Fanderay

Not sure I agree here. He was active at a period of relatively high discussion and then quieter when there wasn't much going on. At worst he could be accused of not taking much initiative to make cases and prompt when there's not much happening, but that can be leveled at most people and isn't very damning, and he was quick to get involved when he did.

I'd like to hear back from him.

[Trake]

I also disagree on his vote being a joke, I don't think it was, drive by though it was.

I don't think he's hugely narrow minded focusing in on MO, it was a much more noticeable event than anything else going on, and I think his analysis of the importance of MO's removal was accurate. At worst it's mildly hypocritical commenting on failed lynches because he'd drove by and wasn't around, but it's an important event and I'd find it ridiculous to say that this would preclude him discussing it.

[Trake]

By my count we have around 5 hours left.

I'm going to

remove vote

Because I don't want to give people the excuse of "oh, it's the only option" amongst other things.

I will be around for time out.

[Ultama]

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Ultama, on 24 October 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

So when we all need to pull together and figure out who we are going to lynch, he disappears again and doesn't give us his ideas. A pattern has emerged. Be active when it doesn't matter but when it counts disappear.

Vote Fanderay

Not sure I agree here. He was active at a period of relatively high discussion and then quieter when there wasn't much going on. At worst he could be accused of not taking much initiative to make cases and prompt when there's not much happening, but that can be leveled at most people and isn't very damning, and he was quick to get involved when he did.

I'd like to hear back from him.

Are you defending him, whilst voting for him based on Hanas possibly symping?

I disagree with you, he was active when I was firing questions at him which prompted him to answer. Yet when I went away, he went away too, yet there were other people posting on thread. His two lines that he posted was in amongst discussion and his comment on the modkill was a one line thought.

With regards to his vote, I said I thought it was a joke vote when he did it. You may argue that it was intentional but you don't really vote people like that without any substance behind it. He voted drive by style, did not elaborate on it and did not try to rally others behind him for the lynch.

[Ultama]

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

By my count we have around 5 hours left.

I'm going to

remove vote

Because I don't want to give people the excuse of "oh, it's the only option" amongst other things.

I will be around for time out.

You've been very wishy washy all game. Fact. I am not going to call you to vote, it was your initial vote that got this started. I may have preferred to go elsewhere today but you cemented Ghennan's vote in place. They are not likely to be back before day end which means we will be one vote down when/if we decide to go elsewhere. What's your game here hey?

[Lock]

I'm back, and I will be around to vote.



I have no qualms voting Fanderay if needed, as it seems that is where things are headed, but I want to do some looking first.



@Ultama - Do I detect that you have decided to bring it down a notch today?

[Trake]

Ultama, on 24 October 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

By my count we have around 5 hours left.

I'm going to

remove vote

Because I don't want to give people the excuse of "oh, it's the only option" amongst other things.

I will be around for time out.

You've been very wishy washy all game. Fact. I am not going to call you to vote, it was your initial vote that got this started. I may have preferred to go elsewhere today but you cemented Ghennan's vote in place. They are not likely to be back before day end which means we will be one vote down when/if we decide to go elsewhere. What's your game here hey?

You keep saying things like this. First I made MO self vote and now I made Ghennan drop a drive by amd leave? Right...

Your game view (including phrases like "got this started"), seems very centred around following. If you prefer to go elsewhere, do so, we have 5 hours left.

Did you read my vote? It was a vote I wanted to leave on overnight because I felt it may lead to some interesting observations.

Thus far the most interesting of those have been that Ghennan seems keen to follow something, and that you seem happy to vote literally anywhere.

[Ultama]

Lock, on 24 October 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

I'm back, and I will be around to vote.



I have no qualms voting Fanderay if needed, as it seems that is where things are headed, but I want to do some looking first.



@Ultama - Do I detect that you have decided to bring it down a notch today?

Looking at my play regardless whether or not you agree with my points that I have made. Day one I decided to be low key, trying to improve my game and only post what I thought was relevant, I felt that day one went slow and we didn't get a lynch. So day two I thought I would do something about that, create posts, look into players and promote discussion.

[Ultama]

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ultama, on 24 October 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

By my count we have around 5 hours left.

I'm going to

remove vote

Because I don't want to give people the excuse of "oh, it's the only option" amongst other things.

I will be around for time out.

You've been very wishy washy all game. Fact. I am not going to call you to vote, it was your initial vote that got this started. I may have preferred to go elsewhere today but you cemented Ghennan's vote in place. They are not likely to be back before day end which means we will be one vote down when/if we decide to go elsewhere. What's your game here hey?

You keep saying things like this. First I made MO self vote and now I made Ghennan drop a drive by amd leave? Right...

Your game view (including phrases like "got this started"), seems very centred around following. If you prefer to go elsewhere, do so, we have 5 hours left.

Did you read my vote? It was a vote I wanted to leave on overnight because I felt it may lead to some interesting observations.

Thus far the most interesting of those have been that Ghennan seems keen to follow something, and that you seem happy to vote literally anywhere.

No. I disagree with you but I like your reasoning for doing it (your observation on Ghennan and I). Maybe you are trying to figure things out all on your own but your vote is becoming useless. Why would people respond to your vote when they know you will remove it anyway? You haven't even given Fanderay a chance to respond to your vote before removing it. We need to lynch today and 5 hours is not a long time when you need 6 votes for a lynch. Ghennan has voted and stated they will not be back. So that leaves us with one less vote.

[Trake]

In essence, I am don't like the manner in which people are following my vote and the justifications they are giving for doing so. I would like to hear back from Fanderay.

I will also be around to vote.

It is not wishy washy not to want to let people get away with hopping on a train with the excuse of simple momentum, or not to want to create an illusion that we only have one choice when that is not that case. It is common sense.

This accusation of erraticism is getting tiring (and is utterly hypocritical, may I add). I have been playing like this all game. Being wishy washy and simply not being tunnel visioned are different things. Making several different assertions and putting pressure in several different places is one thing. Being middle of the road, non committal and vague on every assertion you make is another.

[Trake]

Ultama, on 24 October 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ultama, on 24 October 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

By my count we have around 5 hours left.

I'm going to

remove vote

Because I don't want to give people the excuse of "oh, it's the only option" amongst other things.

I will be around for time out.

You've been very wishy washy all game. Fact. I am not going to call you to vote, it was your initial vote that got this started. I may have preferred to go elsewhere today but you cemented Ghennan's vote in place. They are not likely to be back before day end which means we will be one vote down when/if we decide to go elsewhere. What's your game here hey?

You keep saying things like this. First I made MO self vote and now I made Ghennan drop a drive by amd leave? Right...

Your game view (including phrases like "got this started"), seems very centred around following. If you prefer to go elsewhere, do so, we have 5 hours left.

Did you read my vote? It was a vote I wanted to leave on overnight because I felt it may lead to some interesting observations.

Thus far the most interesting of those have been that Ghennan seems keen to follow something, and that you seem happy to vote literally anywhere.

No. I disagree with you but I like your reasoning for doing it (your observation on Ghennan and I). Maybe you are trying to figure things out all on your own but your vote is becoming useless. Why would people respond to your vote when they know you will remove it anyway? You haven't even given Fanderay a chance to respond to your vote before removing it. We need to lynch today and 5 hours is not a long time when you need 6 votes for a lynch. Ghennan has voted and stated they will not be back. So that leaves us with one less vote.

Why wouldn't Fanderay respond?

I've made it clear that I am happy to vote him for those reasons and will be around to do so. I simply don't want to be on the train right now because I feel like it encourages people to hop on with the excuse of it being the easy train.

Moreover, he's got more pressure on him to do so than when I voted him in the first place.

[Trake]

Also, Ghennan voting and leaving, while it certainly influences the numbers, is not something to influence how scummy something is. Other than Ghennan himself.

It seems people dropping votes and leaving, without discussing their vote beforehand or leaving time for comment on it, is something of a recurrent issue in this game.

[Ultama]

Well, look, your reasons are sound but you could actually have waited a while to see what players jump onto the "easy" train. I don't think any train is "easy" but I can see what you mean by an "easy" vote, those people have to be called into question, but now what you have done is made voting harder for the people who don't know much of what is going on, or are unsure about certain players but just want to lynch for the sake of more information. We are allowed to lynch wrongly. By doing so we are cutting down the suspect pool. There is not going to be a perfect reason for voting someone, is that what you are looking for? A concrete reason, someone to come out and say they are scum? more than likely scum are lay low right now and waiting to be that easy vote. There is no incentive for them to come online and fuck themselves over. We have to goad them into it.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 2. 5 hours and 20 minutes remaining.


10 players alive: Cast, Fanderay, Ghennan, Grasp, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Togg, Trake, Ultama

6 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night.

2 votes Fanderay: Ghennan, Ultama
1 vote Ultama: Fanderay
1 vote Cast: Grasp

Players not voted: Cast, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Togg, Trake

[Trake]

Ultama, on 24 October 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Well, look, your reasons are sound but you could actually have waited a while to see what players jump onto the "easy" train. I don't think any train is "easy" but I can see what you mean by an "easy" vote, those people have to be called into question, but now what you have done is made voting harder for the people who don't know much of what is going on, or are unsure about certain players but just want to lynch for the sake of more information. We are allowed to lynch wrongly. By doing so we are cutting down the suspect pool. There is not going to be a perfect reason for voting someone, is that what you are looking for? A concrete reason, someone to come out and say they are scum? more than likely scum are lay low right now and waiting to be that easy vote. There is no incentive for them to come online and fuck themselves over. We have to goad them into it.

We are allowed to be wrong, but we should still try and make the most of lynching.

Part of that means not letting people away with easy votes if it's avoidable. Sure, it might have been interesting to see who made them, but I don't see that it's a great deal of information there, because they'd just be voting to get a lynch.

The easy votes I find interesting are Ghennan's and your own. Ghennan basically just abandons his own suspicions in favour of following someone, while you throw a bunch of justifications on top that I'm not really sure hold up for me.

[Grasp]

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

By my count we have around 5 hours left.

I'm going to

remove vote

Because I don't want to give people the excuse of "oh, it's the only option" amongst other things.

I will be around for time out.

This is weird.

[Ultama]

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Ultama, on 24 October 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Well, look, your reasons are sound but you could actually have waited a while to see what players jump onto the "easy" train. I don't think any train is "easy" but I can see what you mean by an "easy" vote, those people have to be called into question, but now what you have done is made voting harder for the people who don't know much of what is going on, or are unsure about certain players but just want to lynch for the sake of more information. We are allowed to lynch wrongly. By doing so we are cutting down the suspect pool. There is not going to be a perfect reason for voting someone, is that what you are looking for? A concrete reason, someone to come out and say they are scum? more than likely scum are lay low right now and waiting to be that easy vote. There is no incentive for them to come online and fuck themselves over. We have to goad them into it.

We are allowed to be wrong, but we should still try and make the most of lynching.

Part of that means not letting people away with easy votes if it's avoidable. Sure, it might have been interesting to see who made them, but I don't see that it's a great deal of information there, because they'd just be voting to get a lynch.

The easy votes I find interesting are Ghennan's and your own. Ghennan basically just abandons his own suspicions in favour of following someone, while you throw a bunch of justifications on top that I'm not really sure hold up for me.

Should they? So you are going one step further in the self righteous department then? The Super Townie ^ Here he is. You obviously know who is scum. Everyone else is beneath you. You build yourself up as someone who wants to lynch but then you knock everyone's vote down because it doesn't match your ideals of a right vote. People followed your vote on Fanderay because they saw something in your reasoning, your initial vote and you decided to put your neck out there with a vote. So people have chosen to follow you and add their own two cents. You may not like my reasoning for voting Fanderay. You may not like Ghennan's But do you like your own? Or has Hanas convinced you otherwise? At the end of the day, you started this train. Now you are trying to convince us to not vote that way or for the reasons we find? Hail the mighty fucking Trake who knows better hey. This is what I said about your fucking vote being useless. Why would anyone else want to vote along with you in future when you are saying that that vote is a trap and your actually going after the voters over the voted. You voted Fanderay. Then Ghennan. Then me, whoop, we have a fucking train.

Why did I not vote Cast or Jalan. Firstly, Cast was being voted for by Grasp. I do not trust Grasp. I do not want to create a third train so the votes are split and we end up not lynching anyone. So I followed the train started by you, someone whom I had come to trust a little and then you go and be a fucking dick.

Fuck you Trake.

[Grasp]

Remove Vote

Vote Fanderay

So, are we going to time out without a lynch again? Removing a vote 5 hours before the end is trouble if you ask me. Trake is kind of hard to miss, the elephant in the room so to speak, and I'm now really starting to wonder if we are giving him a free pass. We assume the most talkative ones are usually town, often called stupid townies at that, but what if we have scum mascarading as themselves, playing as they would in a game where they have a townie role. I'm doing a case, however painful, on Trake tomorrow, and then probably voting him.