[Fanderay]

Trake, on 29 October 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 29 October 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 October 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

I'm here, haven't read anything yet.

Smiley contest!

Party time? :twobeer:

[Fanderay]

xpost. i suppose not. oh, fuckn HO...

[Trake]

Balls.

[Jalan]

Path-Shaper, on 29 October 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

HiddenOne.

And nobody is surprised. Sigh...

[Trake]

Jalan, on 29 October 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 29 October 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

HiddenOne.

And nobody is surprised. Sigh...

I was actually, I'd thought he'd maybe been Togg.

Regardless of stereotype about post-count, that seems a low content game by his standards, certainly more non-committal.

[Ghennan]

Oh, FFS.

I have to go and do some work now. Back later.

[Jalan]

No end of night scene yet. Probably lurking and we'll have to have to wait for night to time out.

I've gotta get going anyways so I'll see you all later.

[Trake]

Jalan, on 29 October 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

No end of night scene yet. Probably lurking and we'll have to have to wait for night to time out.

I've gotta get going anyways so I'll see you all later.

I thought night was instant?

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 29 October 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 October 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 29 October 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

HiddenOne.

And nobody is surprised. Sigh...

I was actually, I'd thought he'd maybe been Togg.

Regardless of stereotype about post-count, that seems a low content game by his standards, certainly more non-committal.

There's a certain level of witty snark I've come to expect of HO. It was sadly lacking this game

[Trake]

Hey mods, I said

I thought night was instant.

[Path-Shaper]

Abo could not believe how things had descended. The shame that had been brought to his abbey! Disgusting monks and their foolish books! Just one book – one book! – he knew, had caused all this to be set in motion, to reveal secrets both new and long buried.

It had been a mistake to ask for the assistance of William of Baskerville. He should have kept the investigation internal, solved it himself, as he had done all the previous problems which seemed to plague this monastery like a bad stench. The friar has asked questions he had no right to ask, was not sticking to the remit of his appointed duties.

But Abo had found out about the nightly activities. And now he had, at last, the scent. He passed through the secret entrance in the reliquary – the reliquary which contained, for Abo, the monastery’s true treasures: the gold, silver and jewels from a thousand donations, tens of thousands of pilgrimages. What beauty was captured in those gems! Abo loved to spend what free time he had within their presence, often adorning his own body precious hoard.

His thoughts on the reliquary, Abo did not hear the secret mirror entrance door to the library slide shut on its ancient mechanism. Did not hear the click of the lock as the door he had gone through did the same. By the time he realised he could go neither further forward nor go back, smoke had already begun filtering through, and his torch was getting dimmer, leaving him in the black darkness, no bright shining jewels to guide his way.



Cast has been killed. He was Abo of Fossanova, town, and Blend.

[Fanderay]

are we all dead yet?

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 4. 36 hours remaining.

5 players alive: Fanderay, Ghennan, Hanas, Jalan, Trake

3 votes to lynch, 3 votes to go to night.


Players not votes: Fanderay, Ghennan, Hanas, Jalan, Trake

[Fanderay]

So, trying to stay positive, we may have killed a symp somewhere along the way.
not gonna try playing on phone much longer, so I'm out till tomorrow. Parting thought:
Hanas has been firmly in my blindspot all game. If someone wants to take a look at him and make a case for smth other than his refusal to vote me, I may be inclined to listen to it.

[Jalan]

Trake, on 29 October 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 October 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

No end of night scene yet. Probably lurking and we'll have to have to wait for night to time out.

I've gotta get going anyways so I'll see you all later.

I thought night was instant?

You're right. I could say that I just wasn't thinking much but instead I'll blame it on there being two games at once, because you don't get to do that very often!

[Jalan]

Fanderay, on 29 October 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

So, trying to stay positive, we may have killed a symp somewhere along the way.
not gonna try playing on phone much longer, so I'm out till tomorrow. Parting thought:
Hanas has been firmly in my blindspot all game. If someone wants to take a look at him and make a case for smth other than his refusal to vote me, I may be inclined to listen to it.

With 12 starting players and presumably some town roles based off what Khell said, I think 3 scum would be almost certain for balance.

Unless the Bernard GUI thing was supposed to really change the game. Serial killer perhaps?

But if we do go along with the idea of 3 scum vs 9 town, yeah obviously a scum is now dead. Problem is though we never got CFs for MO and Togg, right? So for all we know one of those two was a symp or even a killer and both our lynches were indeed town.

There's too many possibilities with those two modkilled CFs unknown that we can't really have any sort of reliable idea of where exactly we stand. We just have to treat this as DDay again and keep on going with what we do know.

[Ghennan]

So, by popular demand, some thoughts on Hanas.

He doesn't say much day one.

Day two, he starts off with this:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

I'd say that two more people spring out from day 1 and the root of it is here in this little exchange.

Trake, on 22 October 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Ultama, on 22 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Vote Togg

Togg has not posted yet.

Remove vote

Vote Togg

Flimsy excuse for someone who hasn't posted yet?

Seems like a signal.

First, there's Ultama. He does the ever risky vote for someone not there - sometimes it is seen as a prod to post, sometimes it backfires, especially when it is followed by the argumentation that you shouldn't lynch the potential mod-kill and that basically leads to a morass. So basically, the way he lands into trouble is pretty standard: an act that doesn't sit well with people and that opens theoryland, making it worse by defending himself and then people piling on.


Then, there's Trake. He plays a somewhat aggro game. The voting and the jumping between votes stands out - not so much aggressive perhaps as more of a tagging for stuff he doesn't like. In turn, that allows others to first place the wishy-washy label on him, and then when Trake continues some prodding and voicing suspicions, there's the almost INEVITABLE a symp-tag being applied.
Because we nowadays expect good inno's to develop tunnel vision and a pile-on mentality, I suppose.

The little interesting thing here is that first Trake votes along, then, in 3 posts, makes a 180, and creates the option for a train.
Pallid is then eager to jump on.

I am not going to jump to conclusions. If Trake is a symp, it will tell at some point. Examining his day 1 is only useful in connotation with extra days, see if there are people who are consequently left out, subtly defended (probably by shifts of attention). We'll have to play the long game with multiple IGMEOY perspectives, perhaps also taking disappearances off thread in stride.
If he is inno, that too will show. Either through a NK or through behaviour.

Based on day 1, I'd jump on MO. Now to go on to day 2.

This post doesn't really say much, except that he suspects Trake is a symp, with no indication of who or why Trake may be symping. The crux of his argument is that Trake voted along with Ultama, but then changed his vote, which is patently untrue since Trake said his vote was based on the idea that Ultama was signalling Togg. And then Pallid follows Trake's vote, which is apparently somehow scummy, even though there have been no indications of suspicions of Pallid so far.


Then comes Trake's assessment of the connection between Hanas and Fanderay:

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

Hanas next. Coasts day one.

When he comes back, we get this:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

First impression: Monok Ochem is turning the fairly valid middle-of-the-road accusation into a WIFOM-case by self-voting, at a time where he 'established' that someone else is the only option anyway. I'd say it's a gamble based on the fact that in the collective memory this ridiculous meltdown will survive, not the previous accusation - a meltdown that is then explainable.

Now to forge on. I'll be posting with pauses - still have work to do.

Fairly obvious topic. Seems to be implying MO as symp here.

He does a summary of day one, talks about me and Ultama, it's all pretty non-commital really.

He then picks up Ultama here:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Here, awake and surprised I am alive. Why the fuck we couldn't get a lynch is beyond me, I knew it, I knew Togg would come on with a last minute, "I will post more at a later time" promise. It's not a huge deal we didn't lynch as it pushes D day back which the scum will not like. Now to have a look at everyone and see why people are keeping low, why we didn't get a lynch and anything else that comes to mind.

I can't help but ask how it is not a big deal for town considering we delay a lynch on a consensus suspicious character - whether that's you, or Monok, or Trake, or Togg, or whomever. Because unless we shift play style dramatically, we will just do the day 1 lynch day 2, and we're a full day behind on acting on our suspicions.

Again, pretty obvious points, just the usual lynch better than no lynch stuff. Seems like good to pick up.

But it's also worth noting in the context of what he goes next.

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Argh. Between Grasp - Trake and now Fanderay - Ultama this is devolving rapidly in hissy-fit sniping. It should at the least be entertaining....
That being said, someone is coming apart.

[..]

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Scrap that, you voted for me, then disappeared until the next day. You left your vote and was not around to change or discuss things any further. Also look at your reason for vote.

Fanderay, on 22 October 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Ultama, on 22 October 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

You are quite funny Trake. This is a very low TDMi game, why would someone signal in a low TDMi game? No one is dumb enough to signal. Voting Togg for nothing better than to lynch a non active player. My reason is posted right underneath my vote. You don't like the reason? Go suck a dick. It's my reason and I don't see a better option or didn't at the time.

just like no one's dumb enough to WIFOM on Day 1?

vote Ultama

catching up

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

So that is not the best reason, but you don't post after you catch up. Monok follows your vote and if Trake was smart and wanted a lynch he could have voted for me and the train could have really got underway.

Are you trying to invalidate another player's earlier vote solely based on their participation, when they point out a WIFOM straight from the book?
And you pick a top 4 and are 'sure' about it (but don't name them or say why), on day 2, a day without a lynch or train analysis? Ultama, you're getting off the rails with a little bit of pressure and some namecalling.
I don't hold your wrong recollection of whether or not Fanderay voted you against you as much as he does (although the fact that you accuse him without checking is worrying), but your play is sketchy and smells like panic, even more so since you don't fact check.

Basically, you opened the gates for a (100% speculative) case to be constructed about starting a train on a non-participant to seem active (because scum don't start trains, dontchaknow),only to then Silencer style NK the guy who votes you first.

Note, while he portrays it as a pissing contest, he's very definitely attacking Ultama, and defending Fanderay. Ultama's criticism of Fanderay claiming to be catching up and then disappearing is pretty valid really. It's a standard thing to pick up. Yet Hanas portrays it as "trying to invalidate another player's earlier vote solely based on their participation". Which really skips the specific point, in favour of a rather damning generalisation. Reading Hanas, you'd think Ultama had posted "fuck off, your post count is too low to have an opinion", as opposed to "you said you were catching up and then showed no sign of posting".

It is really noticeable how much Hanas mentions Fanderay. These are extracted from all his subsequent posts till now:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

I'd say only the current game counts, as the past is the past.
As for a reason... pff. Non-participation, mid-train switch, OM halting his lynch (I'm firmly with Fanderay on that topic). Pick your reason. Or have two at the price of one. .

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I can see what people are saying about Monok being a killer but I don't think symp has crossed their minds.

It crossed Fanderay's.
Your argument of MO not posting enough to be a symp is invalid. His window of posting opportunity does not dictate his role, nor does his role dictate his window of posting.

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Depends on the PoV. See what Fanderay posts.

It's just something I picked up on when looking at all his posts. It just jumps out at you - Fanderay, Fanderay, Fanderay, Fanderay, every post you know? By the end I was thinking "get a room", but perhaps they have one already.

He mentions very few other players. When he does mention others, it's on things like Monok, or attacking Ultama. It didn't feel like he mentioned other people in the same way - looking at what they were saying about others etc, as opposed to just taking issue with their posts. Like primary vs. secondary sources as a comparison.

I mean, you're allowed to agree with people. It just struck me noteworthy that the only time I felt he's really got involved has been to strongly agree with Fanderay and to attack the person Fanderay was attacking (even though he saw it as a hissy-fit argument).

Then Hanas defends with this:

Hanas, on 24 October 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Trake, on 24 October 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

Anyhow, I've got to be off for the night. Tomorrow is busy, particularly in the morning, but I ought to be able to chime in with a good 4-5 hours left.

I think I'll

Vote Fanderay

Before I head off though, particularly on account of Hanas' behaviour. There seems to be more evidence of connection there as opposed to individual odd bits of play, particularly since the MO modkill knocked the wind out of the Ultama connection a bit.

If you see it as me riding his coattails, fine. As for symping/ fake-symping him, well, I could see the possibility, although it is so extremely blatant and hardly needed when it comes to Ultama, who is perfectly capable of self-destructing spectacularly anyway.

I'd say the factual reason is quite simple, really. Ultama, I and Fanderay were on at the same time, which was while Ultama was having his pocket-meltdown, which was then the natural subject to discuss.
When there's three active players you tend to communicate with each other, about each other.

Which is kind of true, but not the whole picture. He doesn't at all direct anything to Fanderay, no interaction between them at all. Everything he says about Fanderay is directed at Ultama, which is kind of odd.


Then he returns to make this summary post, which involves nothing of substance:

Hanas, on 24 October 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am here for the next 90 minutes and can vote.

Basically:
Ultama is probably town for meta-reasons.
I like Ghennan so far.
I am patently unsure about Trake.
It might be very related to the last few hours, but Grasp seems very pushy to get a lynch almost to the point of skipping reasoning entirely.
I can't remember seeing much of Lock.
Cast, meh.
Fanderay: don't see a reason to lynch him. It is basically from rubbing people the wrong way and Ultama fall-out.
Jalan, wtf, 28 posts but can't remember a single one.

I really disliked MO and am sad we didn't get a CF there.

Except that he defends Fanderay YET AGAIN.


And then after that makes a vote for an easy lynch that several other people had suspected of being scummy earlier. This is seen (rightly or wrongly) as an attempt at derailment from Fanderay.

Hanas, on 24 October 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

You know what... let's just vote a coaster. This situation is damned unpleasant, and the mod-kills invite trouble by following too quickly with no info from them. In the current environment I'd rather lynch someone on whom I have absolutely no read whatsoever and who seems to like to keep it that way, despite a decent post count, than lynching someone on who some shades of grey are gathered and who at the least is being discussed.

Vote Jalan.

[Ghennan]

This is after the end of day two:

Hanas, on 28 October 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Haven't caught up since the forum died on me last week, so no firm grasp on content here and now... but a switch from Fanderay to Grasp for the lynch? Meh. Even if I calculate in that I may have seem sympy, the case stunk. As for Grasp, yes, he was wishywashy, but there were better targets. Also, wonder what Trake has to say about Ultama mentioning Jalan as a potential lynch target.
When I did that, the tiger was all happy to call it "the derailment towards an easy target he expected from me".

Finally: Tatts: show some god-damned patience next time, play to your strengths, don't think you know it all, don't start making weird claims that you can't back up and MOST OF FUCKING ALL, don't melt down like Emmenthaler on a leaky nuclear reactor. I didn't want to go out with the meta-stuff (Fanderay's STFU, ASSHOLE at this point is pre-emptively noted) but it was so god-damned clear it was you and that you were inno that not mentioning it would have been hypocritical. Even though you deserved a lynch for the actual play.

I think with Trake, there's a huge skeleton in the closet that we need to discuss as he seems involved in everything.
Jalan seems present a lot but hasn't got much fire and the time I tried, Trake jumped on it. Wonder if that had to do with me as a suspected symp, or with Jalan.
I am also not sure about Lock, who seems to subsistence post, and I don't like Cast for some reason or other - mainly because I have the unsubstantiated impression that he is there when there are vote swings.

He criticises the lynch, throws some more suspicion Trake's way but again never follows it up. He points towards Cast and Lock as low posters.

Hanas, on 29 October 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

[snip]

So your case for last day's main lynch target (which came from a shitty association case) is that he didn't show an appetite for dying but voted for someone else, combined with an all fresh and new association case?
If Ultama is the suspected symp, why would he be killed? Imho, the reason Tatts was killed was because he was PIed by association already by the meta-using part of the thread, thus giving us no new info.

I think this is incredibly lazy work and it comes off as scum revitalising an earlier case with some new arguments. The fact that Cast is very cautiously offering support without a vote is making me suspicious as well.


Vote Ghennan.

Sounds like you're setting someone up.

Finally, his response to my day-three case on Fanderay. He rubbishes the case, then counter-votes me. His argument against it is disbelief over the connection with Ultama (which is fair enough, it was a stretch), but doesn't really address any of the other parts of it. And I don't understand. It just seems like Hanas is doing his best to get Fanderay lynched, with all the attention he is putting on the cases, and the constant defence even after he has been connected to Fanderay.

So, as summary: Hanas seems to skim the edge of just providing enough input to not be accused of having no content. He frequently proposes lynches of people who are already getting heat, or who are low posting, which feels pretty lazy to me. He hasn't ever been on at the end of the day, which could be a timezone issue, or could be a preference to not be around when most of the discussion is happening, and most of the pressure is on. He constantly defends Fanderay, which, to avoid being accused of bias, I will let you all make up your own minds about.

If we think that Fanderay isn't scummy, then Hanas is probably at best a symp fake-symping Fanderay in order to get him lynched. If we entertain the possibility that Fanderay is scum, then Hanas goes to being potentially connected with him. The issue I have here is that Fanderay proposed a closer look at Hanas.

I'm conflicted.

[Ghennan]

In the interest of balance, Jalan.

The main thing about Jalan is that he's really... nice. He has a lot of filler posts with no content, but he also asks a lot of questions and shares a lot of ideas, he comments a lot on cases, although he hasn't actually made any cases himself. He tends to be pretty pleasant, which I think is where the accusations of him not posting content have come from. He doesn't stick in your mind because he doesn't start fights with people.

Prodding questions come relatively early on in the game:

Jalan, on 22 October 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Trake, on 22 October 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Actually, that just makes the vote seem more signal like. Why would you make such a useless vote, that looks suspicious, otherwise?

If it's a signal how is it supposed to work? Togg is one of the killers, Ultama is symp, so Ultama votes Togg to signal the other killer and hopes desperately we don't all agree to vote out his low-poster killer master Togg?

He has a big analysis of Ultama's posting style on day two:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Ok serious time. Ultama, your behaviour today is extremely... I don't know. Misguided?

Big cases about post counts and changes in behaviour on DDay, covering the whole of the game up to there? Sure, that's legit.

Doing the same thing on Day 2? Talking about differences in posting frequency between the first half of day 1 and the second half of day 1? That's just stupid. That's a 36 hour period. You can't make reliable patterns out of that.

That's the first problem.

Second problem: you seem to want to make a case on everybody. Why? What purpose does that serve? How does that help town? I repeat: IT IS DAY 2. Trying to go through everybody on day 2 is not only useless because there's too many people and too little information but it clouds the thread with post after post of you grasping at the faintest straws to analyze about people and the vast majority of that grasping is not helpful at all (and fuck these alt names, I'm not signalling Grasp here and I'm not going back to rewrite that sentence just to remove the graspings dammit!)

You want to make a case on Day 2? Go ahead. It's a good thing. But Day 2 is a time to get focused, not to throw shittons of little tidbits into a blender and hope it comes out looking like anything but goopy shit.

The problem is that this is bad play whether you're town or scum pretending to be town. Looks bad on you either way but doesn't convince me you are scum by itself. So now I need to keep reading up and think about why you're doing this as if it isn't just misguided crap townie play which it probably is and see if there's a reason I can see scum doing something stupid like this.

At least this game aint dull!

Here he's almost aggressively nice:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I can dig the explanation about Trake's vote switch, but OTOH it is coming from Hanas and Fanderay.

Trake if you don't mind can you discuss your vote on Monok? I'd like to hear how you saw the situation.

I was going to be there for a while to switch if needed, and Monoks play bothered me, so I decided to vote him. I didn't expect my vote to hurt the Ultama train, it would've been 4:1:1 instead of 5:1, and I'd made it clear that I was around and happy to vote Ultama.

Edit: formatting, and missed a word

Can you go deeper? I want to understand your thought process that lead to actually deciding to switch your vote to MO.

Yeah you were going to be around to change it again later, but still switching votes off a train onto someone even if its just for pressure is very noticeable and not something I get the feels you'd have done at some of your other angry times.

Not saying it was necessarily a bad move just trying to get into your PoV more.

Although here he gets fairly angry about Ultama's play. He's still not really angry towards anyone, and he isn't picking any fights. His problem is with something that most players have already agreed on.

Jalan, on 24 October 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Hanas, on 24 October 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 24 October 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Hanas, on 24 October 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am here for the next 90 minutes and can vote.

Basically:
Ultama is probably town for meta-reasons.
I like Ghennan so far.
I am patently unsure about Trake.
It might be very related to the last few hours, but Grasp seems very pushy to get a lynch almost to the point of skipping reasoning entirely.
I can't remember seeing much of Lock.
Cast, meh.
Fanderay: don't see a reason to lynch him. It is basically from rubbing people the wrong way and Ultama fall-out.
Jalan, wtf, 28 posts but can't remember a single one.

I really disliked MO and am sad we didn't get a CF there.

\
since when is "meta" a fucking excuse?

It is a certain's player's obsession to be a pushy towny and it nearly always leads to a major fuck-up on day 2. I am perfectly willing to vote him because
1) it is not good for town
2) this time he may be scum,

but I would be in no way surprised it was just another instance of day 2 syndrome on that particular player.

I have a problem with this.

I don't want to go all Macros here, but maybe the problem with malazan mafia is that townies playing like shit at the start of the game is a way to get VPI'd? So next game that I'm scum (esp. symp) I should do stupid "pushy" shit like Ultama is doing here, make a bunch of bad cases and piss everyone off so that I can be VPI for meta reasons and coast to victory?

When in the flying fuck did that become permissible?

I'm not done catching up yet, but the case on Fanderay doesn't appeal to me at all (seems it's entirely based on the fact that Hanas interacts with him and Ultama more than everyone else? I agree with the bit that they seem to be on at the same time) and I don't anticipate any other trains forming so

Vote Ultama

because apparently I'm shit at alting people so I don't have any meta excuses to PI him, and if you have a fucking weird crazy quadcase explosion followed by an angry OMGUS meltdown you look like scum to me and deserve to be tested.

If these hidden meta reasons are true, well then fuck you you deserve to be lynched so that maybe the next game you'll actually help town instead of fucking your own team over a barrel!

He is very determined in his dislike of the Fanderay case, and says later that he won't vote on it even for a lynch. But it doesn't come off as defending Fanderay, just pointing out the logical inconsistencies in the case

Jalan, on 25 October 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

I still don't feel that the Fanderay case has any salt and no one has brought up anything new since the initial case to sway me.

I could get behind a Grasp vote. I'm not really convinced the posting consistency means anything, but he does seem to be coasting a bit and there's connections there that can be expanded tomorrow.

My main preference is still Ultama for his multicasing and meltdown. He seems more reasonable now but that switch in behaviour back to calm is in some ways more suspicious. Scum would be more likely than town to feel the need to force themselves to go back to acting calm and to tone down their accusations. Claiming that the poor cases were fishing is a very weak excuse.

Below is another instance of him sharing ideas. The post is well constructed, and it certainly makes his thoughts clear, but I have a problem with him suggesting people and then not making a case on them.

Jalan, on 29 October 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

I do agree with Hanas that Trake bears some looking at today.

Trake has been extremely active and aggressive, putting lots of votes down for small reasons.

It's common for town to look for scum amongst the "coasters", the low-posters or the "middle of the road" players, because those used to be the best hiding places for scum. They still work as hiding places now - though not as well as in mafia 20 - but we've also seen in the last generation scum hide by being very active, enabling them to avoid all the traditional suspicion.

This game so far shows the validity of that, as Trake really hasn't had much public suspicion cast on him at all. If he is scum he's just had to keep up the pace of posting his many suspicions and vote hopping, but otherwise has had no pressure.

Of course, he absolutely could be just a townie doing the same thing. But the interesting thing to me is that day 2 was very spread out in terms of trains - at some point we had 8 votes cast on 5 players. That's a tricky situation for scum, because you would want to sound convinced by a good case, but at the same time want to make sure the lynch succeeds. You would not want to be seen as suspicious for jumping around from train to train, nor would you want to be switching to the biggest train with a very weak justification for why you've changed your mind from your previous target. Lastly, if the day ends with you being a lone vote on another player, it is very visible and you may end up having to deal with defending yourself about it or at least incorporating it into your behaviour for the rest of the game.

So overall, days like that can be very tricky for scum, and IMO it's when you might see them treading very carefully.

What's interesting to me, then, is that Trake was very happy to vote hop around a lot on day 1, and early on day 2 when there were only a couple trains he hopped onto MO, then onto Fanderay. But once we got up to four trains existing, he removed his vote and didn't vote again all day.

So, in summary for Jalan. Lots of posting, and a fairly good mix of filler posts with questions, responses to cases, and sharing of his own thoughts. His content posts tend to be well thought out and logical. He doesn't make any cases, which could be a lack of time, though he seems to spend a lot of time on the content he puts in his posts generally. He was around for the end of day two, but not day three, although he did say he only just missed it. There are a couple of connections, he made lots of digs at Ultama day two, he has been talking for a while about his dislike of Trake but not done anything about it, and he was emphatic in his dislike of the Fanderay case.

[Ghennan]

Got to have dinner, but I'll return later to say more about Trake.