[nacht]

Spite seems to be a dragon.

In BaB, she has this form.

Quote

She had one stunning glimpse of a great draconic shape, golden-red, claws extended, stooping, snarling teeth agape, before those claws clamped on to the craft and she was plunged beneath the clouded ochre-hued water.

In Bonehunters, she uses SD

Quote

She said, ‘In the name of the Warren of Starvald Demelain, I invoke the ritual of release.’ And from her words descended, through dead tree root, through stone and sand, dissolving ward after ward, a force of entropy, known to the world as otataral.

Is she an Elient or a Soletaken?
She seems like an Elient to me because of her rather dimissive attitude to soletaken.

Quote

Spite sneered her distaste. ‘Soletaken degenerates. Gone feral, I see. What would you have of me?’

I can not recollect who else used the SD warren in the series?

If she is an Elient, there might be an interesting relationship between the Elient and the Azathanaii.

[Traveller]

I thought Spite and Envy were both Soletaken dragons. I haven't read BaB yet, but I guess she's making scathing comments about Soletaken that have gone feral - stayed as dragons and no longer return to human form, rather than Soletaken in general.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 23 September 2013 - 06:44 AM

[Aptorian]

She's soletaken, not Elient. Her parents are:

Forge of Darkness spoilers:

Spoiler

Draconus and Olar Ethil

I think we'll have to wait for the other two books in the Kharkanas trilogy to know what kind of relationship there is between Azathanai and Dragons but considering that K'rul fucked the dragons over royally, and we've seen Triss slaughtering a bunch of them, I doubt there was ever much love.

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 23 September 2013 - 07:06 AM

[Kanese S's]

Traveller, on 23 September 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

I thought Spite and Envy were both Soletaken dragons. I haven't read BaB yet, but I guess she's making scathing comments about Soletaken that have gone feral - stayed as dragons and no longer return to human form, rather than Soletaken in general.

I would assume that Envy is also a Soletaken dragon, though I can't recall an instance of her veering, just on the basis that Spite is.

Spite is shown to be a soletaken dragon from her introduction.

Given their shared parentage, I'd definitely say they're shapeshifters, not true eleint. Though that relationship might be much more complicated.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Spoiler

Here's the thing though, if Spite and Envy are Azathanai (they have two Azathanai parents) then they can change their shape to be whatever suits them. Draconus does it as well in TCG, so maybe its not so much a case of either soletaken or elient but just wanting to be a dragon. I guess it would be answered if when she veered there was note of a spice scent, but if there is absence of this evidence than there aren't many definitive conclusions to be drawn. Then again, maybe they are only able to change their shape to something more closely their same size, weight etc and they are indeed soletaken. But again, not really enough evidence.

Please watch the FoD spoiliers ~Bubba

[Aptorian]

The Dramatis Personae of Bonehunters calls Spite a Soletaken. Also there is a description of her hand, in human form, being rust red with scales... which I wonder might be more related to some worshipped image, than her actual normal appearance, but I don't think there is any reason to second guess her having fed on a Dragon at some point.

During the Tiste civil war a lot of people became Draconean Soletaken. No reason to doubt Spite could have been there. Hell, even as a child she could probably have picked a fight with a Dragon and ate its heart.

I think the Azathanai can be what ever size they want. Kilmandaros is HUGE in Forge of Darkness for example.

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 23 September 2013 - 02:53 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Crustaceous Apt, on 23 September 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

The Dramatis Personae of Bonehunters calls Spite a Soletaken.

That's all I need. Unless I hear otherwise, then I'm going with ST.

But back to OP question, I've always though "Elient" just a fancy name for full-blooded, born-that-way Dragons.

[Kanese S's]

It is, I think.

The difference between Azathanai shapeshifting and Soletaken shapeshifting, mostly if there are any drawbacks of the former, compared to the latter, are as of yet unclear.

If Spite and Envy could have turned into dragons if they wanted anyway, what purpose in becoming soletaken, as Spite at least apparently is? Shits and giggles? Maybe they killed a dragon and drank its blood because they're psychotic and sadistic and thought it would be fun?


Also, is there any instance of Envy taking the dragon form that we assume she has?

[Azathanai]

Kanese S, on 24 September 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Maybe they killed a dragon and drank its blood because they're psychotic and sadistic and thought it would be fun?

This. Whatever fun those two (three?) are up to is only just beginning.

Clearly the Azathanai come into being with astounding raw power, yet I think they are limited in how they use it. Aside from raw strength, perhaps it cannot be channelled externally without a binding of sorts to some aspect of the world. Draconus' veerings seem related to the aspect of Dark, and each of the A's seem to have unique skills, perhaps related to how they chose to bind their powers. Maybe the bindings are of a permanent nature? This could be related to Kallor's curse to "never ascend" - K could be an Azathanai prevented from channelling his powers, yet he is unexplainably powerful.

Anyway, the dragon blood party should be entertaining. Entirely possible the A's require blood to veer.

[worry]

I'm gonna bet they drank from Sheltatha Lore, just to close that circle. And the reason an Azathanai or half-Azathani or whatever would want the blood of Tiam: Chaos. A big no-no for any devout Azathanai. No doubt I'll be wrong to one degree or another!

FoD-specific stuff:

Spoiler

Which reminds me, we might start seeing the Azath (houses) begin their proactivity in the Karkhanas trilogy, huh? Maybe K'rul's deal is the dividing line in the relationship between the Azath Houses and the Ascendants.

Anyway, I don't think Envy has ever veered in the entire series. But she traveled with Rake and Osric, so I think that alone is hint enough; I don't see her agreeing to be carried around in their talons. I suppose at this point I wouldn't be surprised either way though, but I, like everyone else, just presumed it with the Draconus and Spite relationships. Would she ever let her sister have something she didn't?

[Kanese S's]

Drank from Sheltatha Lore? Hmmm. That would close the circle, yes. Also provides for slightly kinky lesbian things. Maybe too racy for me to start one of my retarded threads about, though (this is your cue to wrinkle your noses in disgust, everyone).

And yeah, that's true, if she did accompany Anomander and Osric, either they all walked, or she flew with them (how cool a scene would that be!).

Furthermore, totally agree on your reasoning that if Spite's a soletaken, Envy has to be. She wouldn't allow herself to be one-upped like that. Plus, if it gives any advantages separate from what they already have due to being Azathanai, they would no longer be evenly matched if one was a soletaken and the other was not, and from what's been shown in the series, they very much are equals in power.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

worry, on 24 September 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

I'm gonna bet they drank from Sheltatha Lore, just to close that circle. And the reason an Azathanai or half-Azathani or whatever would want the blood of Tiam: Chaos. A big no-no for any devout Azathanai. No doubt I'll be wrong to one degree or another!

FoD-specific stuff:

Spoiler

Which reminds me, we might start seeing the Azath (houses) begin their proactivity in the Karkhanas trilogy, huh? Maybe K'rul's deal is the dividing line in the relationship between the Azath Houses and the Ascendants.

Anyway, I don't think Envy has ever veered in the entire series. But she traveled with Rake and Osric, so I think that alone is hint enough; I don't see her agreeing to be carried around in their talons. I suppose at this point I wouldn't be surprised either way though, but I, like everyone else, just presumed it with the Draconus and Spite relationships. Would she ever let her sister have something she didn't?

Closing the circle. Never thought of that.
Hell, she could have turned into a flying squirrel as easily as a dragon. Meanest bitch of a flying squirrel you ever done saw.

Spoiler

I like the idea of the Azath houses becoming more of a player in the series too. Especially since ascendancy appears to be a new thing, in FoD. In fact, I don't think there are any ascendants as of that time. There has to be something to the Azath houses being so benevolent. Do they act in opposition to chaos? Not sure if that's been discussed already. It probably has, because it seems so obvious to me right now. Makes me curious(er) why Osserc would try to destroy one.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i'm not even sure that pure-blood eleint can shape-shift. when have we ever seen a real dragon take any other form but their own? the closest thing is telorast and curdle possessing things while they were ghosts.

FOD

Spoiler

as concerns ascendants, i think we might be witnessing the birth of just such. what happens to Mother dark at the end of the book, if not ascension? draconus gives her the gate of darkness and that's gotta mean something. furthermore, who or what is the 'burn' character encountered by sukul and her follower underground? if she was once a dog-runner, surely her current state required some kind of ascension to achieve. they may be primitive versions, but i believe they're among the first ascendants. urusander could be next, or anomander.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 25 September 2013 - 12:43 AM

[worry]

Spoiler

Agree wholeheartedly. I mean I'm just shooting in the dark, but I hope you guys agree there is plenty of room for interesting tragedy and pathos in the transition from Azathanai as disciples of the Azath to Ascendants as potential enemies/victims of the "angry" Azath -- and perhaps the Nameless Ones are their imperfect replacements...if they stretch this far back into Gothos's history that would be nuts! Maybe there's a schism. Old Man Moon certainly doesn't seem to be an (ex-)"Elder God" in BaB, and the only blood he uses is his (inferred) own from the tattooing process. Anyway, I hope this FoD stuff isn't too far off topic, because I do think it circles back to the arrival of the Eleint, and their direct connection to Chaos. I'm just using spoiler tags because of the weird FoD/BaB order.

[nacht]

In HoC, glossary Starvald Demelain is defined as a warren of the elient.

Quote

Starvald Demelain: The Eleint Warren

In DG it is defined as

Quote

Starvald Demelain: the Tiam Warren, the First Warren

In the series, I can remember only two uses of SD as a warren. Silanah in GotM and Spite in BH.
But it appears that Spite is a soletaken as Apt suggested. (that the Azathanai can take a dragon shape is an interesting twist)

Also interesting is that the only soletaken dragons we seem to see are the Tiste and they use KG. Maybe that is significant somehow.

This post has been edited by nacht: 25 September 2013 - 08:20 AM

[Kanese S's]

I thought Anomander Rake used both Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

If they are the first ascendants (mother dark, urusabder, burn) it makes sense since what with wandering evolving into some kind of order. If there is now an order, then it makes sense that an individual can rise into the next division of that order, sharing power via with the other azathanai via kruls gift.

[nacht]

Kanese S, on 25 September 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

I thought Anomander Rake used both Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain.

Hmm, I dont recall this.
But It is very likely that Dragon Soletakens have access to the SD warren and whether they use it or not is upto them.

[Randomander]

"T'iam, Kalse, Silannah, Ampelas, Okaros, Karosis, Sorrit, Atrahal, Eloth, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, Korbas…Olar. Eleint. Draconean. Dragons. The Pure Dragons. The place where the road comes from is closed. By the mixed bloods who gathered long ago. Draconus, K'rul, Anomandaris, Osserc, Silchas Ruin, Scabandari, Sheltatha Lore, Sukul Ankhadu and Menandore". That's a quote from either DoD or TCG, listing Draconus as soletaken and Olar as pure. Not too sure what it means but it's something
Also, I'm pretty sure soletaken have access to SD, that's the magic they "breathe" onto ppl

This post has been edited by Randomander: 25 December 2013 - 12:30 AM

[Raraku]

It may be a GotMism but the powerful demon that Rake fights towards the end says that he smells the reek of Tiam more than Darkness in Rake.
Also Rake, Ruin and all the other soletaken definitely use the SD warren. That is the sorcery that keeps dragons air-borne even after their wings are broken.