[NefaraisBredd]

Ok, I have read this series several times and I *still wonder who or what Edgewalker is. Edgewalker intrigues me-hé is seemingly an Elder god but that doesnt really tell us.much. I also find myself wondering WHO Kruppe really is as well. Hé is more than just a genius and hé provés this on several occasions.

Edgewalker might be à Tiste - possibly à Legionary. Hé may also be Azathanai, à potential candidate for Grizzn Farl. No tusks or other distinguishing features are mentioned, so I assume hé.cannot.be.à.Jaghut.

Kruppe is also à potential candidate.for Grizzn Farl. Can Anyone.help me find quotes that might show Rake or Brood having à subtile recognition of Kruppe as Grizzn? kruppes' ability to defy wards and spells (Brood's hammer) goes beyond *being Krul's best friend. Intrresting how manu different beings show up in Kruppes' dreams.

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 29 August 2013 - 05:23 AM

[Grimjazz]

I'm only on the second read through of the series (just finieshed MoI) and until I did a quick search on Grizzn Farl I couldn't even remember ever hearing his name before.

I've just started to read FoD (finally) and I wonder if there will be any clues to Edgewalker's original identity in the Kharkanas Trilogy.

As for Kruppe, I kinda see him as being a future god, maybe he's just one of those rare talent's that are born ever hundred thousand years or so.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Yr treading very close to spoiler territory with that "A" word there so be careful.

As for Kruppe...We know he is special. But we don't know why. Some mysteries are more fun when they remain mysterious.

Edgewalker is kind of the same. Although I am sure at some point who he is will be made much more clear, that has yet to come about as of Toll the Hounds.

[Trull's son]

NefaraisBredd, on 29 August 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

kruppes' ability to defy wards and spells (Brood's hammer) goes beyond *being Krul's best friend.

I'm not sure it does go beyond being buds with Krul. If I'm not mistaken, after the Brood encounter someone close to the event mentions an intercession on Kruppe's behalf. It's assumed to be Krul's doing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Brood's hammer "powered" by warrens, specifically that of Burn, and as such could still be manipulated by Krul in some way? Then again, Krul is usually presented as a weakened god. One example of his limited ability is the Chemalle attack on Gruntle's caravan in MoI. Krul was only able to put the humans involved to sleep in order to keep them alive. Not exactly mountain deflecting powers there.

We'll probably get more info on Edgewalker by the time the current trilogy wraps up.

[Abyss]

MODGOD NOTICE OF THREAD MOVE,
DUE TO REFS TO LATER BOOKS
AND BECAUSE THE OP HAS READ THE ENTIRE SERIES
AND THERE'S NO REASON TO LIMIT THE DISCUSSION TO TtH AND EARLIER BOOKS.
CARRY ON.

[NefaraisBredd]

Wicked! Thanks!

[NefaraisBredd]

It may be more than his protection by Krul-Kruppe slips through Baruks' sorcery like it doesnt exist. Interesting comment about Krul' limitations (ch'malle)which can be explained by the idea that they may be like Elders, immune to sorcery or at least à natural résistance to magic. Kruppe also seems.to be aware of things that hé couldn't possibly know, much like Fisher. Also, Krul is not only weak but hé is stretched thin by all that is happening. This may be the reason why Tayschrenn ends up going into.the bassement at Kruls' bar......as for Edgewalker, I agree that we will likely see more of him in the Karkanas trilogy- i *still think hé may be Arathan. Grizzn was mentioned in Bonehunters or RG (i think) albeit briefly. * Kruppe is the circle breaker, which may imply that hé is incredibly ancient as well. Think about it, Darujhistan? Is full of ascendants and all manner of powerful créatures, yet Kruppe managés to outwit them all and never seems to be affectéd by any of them. None of the big players seem to notice him, hé may be.misdirection personnified (maybe.hé is the Destriant/knight/King of the Warren of meanas or rashan?) I dunno, hé is certainly one of my favorite characters .

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 29 August 2013 - 07:32 PM

[Abyss]

NefaraisBredd, on 29 August 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

...* Kruppe is the circle breaker, which may imply that hé is incredibly ancient as well....

Actually Circle-breaker was Kruppe's name for the Darujhistan city guard he employed as an agent. That was the guy who kept eavesdropping on the councilmembers, and who Kruppe shipped off to be a nobleman somewhere right at the end of the book.

Kruppe's connection to Krul seemed to start because Kruppe's brain was one of the few Krul could contact when he was dormant and inactive at the start of GotM, before Rallick killed an assassin in the Belfry and re-consecrated it. I don't think Kruppe and Krul's relationship ever went further than the god helping him were he could. I don't think Krul ever aspected Kruppe as a Mortal Sword or Champion or whatever role.


Edgewalker seems to be stuck guarding Meanas.

Most descriptions have him as tall as a Tiste but undead like a Tlan Imass, which is really unhelpful all things considered.

He's hinted that he was or is an elder god, but his aspect seems to be extremely limitted, although we see him in TtH appear to become involved in other events, and his chat with Cot in the TCG prologue also suggests he has more going on than just trudging around annoying people who accidentally end up in Meanas.

The logical conclusion is that he is or was aspected to Shadow at some point and was dragged along when KE broke. That said we've seen aspects change, so in theory he could be anybody, including Grizzn Farl, tho i still doubt that.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Abyss, on 29 August 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

...trudging around annoying people who accidentally end up in Meanas.

What a job!

[Abyss]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 29 August 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Abyss, on 29 August 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

...trudging around annoying people who accidentally end up in Meanas.

What a job!

But seriously, it's not like we've seen him actually DO anything. he shows up, acts all ominous and meancing and decomposing and stuff and then other people do stuff and shit happens.

If not for Curdle and Telorast's comments about him and that they brought him in on the TtH meeting, i'd wouldn't believe he could do much more than heckle.

[NefaraisBredd]

I guess i need to be more specific in my posts-I am aware that Kruppe wasn't the circle breaker as such, yet, hé was definitely the mastermind behind the while enterprise. We all know hé is the Tesla of Wu, however, I suspect there is something more to him than his genius and Kruls' help. I am not suggesting that hé is aspected by Krul, I just think that there is more than charisma at work when it comes to Kruppe. For example, why do people always forget important things that they want to speak to Kruppe about ? How is it that hé can see through Any glamour/spells ? How does hé defeat the High Preist of Shadow(Iskaral is incredibly powerful, dont be fooled by appearances)? Where did hé get his (awesome) all-powerful mule? (i was in-stitches, i was laughing so hard) Again, how does hé know almost everything about everyone (and everything)? It aint just cause hé is the Eel. When Derudan and the cabal are shitting their pants, hé calmly strolls about ! (cause hé.knows he's got two aces up his sleeve (i couldn't resist à Scorch & Leff reference . )

Edgewalker is à mystery. Although he appears to be 'inactive' due to his lack of action, i've always considéréd the quiet ones (who dont do or say much) the most dangerous because they have the least to prove. Heck, if he can give Temper the 'willies' then he is prolly as tough as he looks. Many times we see Edgewalker conversing with powerful beings and they all seem to be cowed by him or at least they recognize that hé is à former badass who prolly shouldn't be.messed with. Cotillion seems to be one.of the few who is daring enough to push Edgewalker and even manages to surprise him. Think about it, Shadow may he broken but it is still immense. Edgewalker shows up everywhere (eg: Blood&Bone) cause he is the guardian of Shadow. The hounds don't bother him and Shadowthrone is vexed with him yet he won't move against him. If I remember correctly, NOBODY crosses Shadowthrone (excepting Quick Ben and he is CraZy) I can't get away.from the .feeling that Edgewalker is Arathan, or a Tiste.

My last speculation had me puzzled but I'm sure ill find out more in the second book of the Tiste series. I am referring to Arathans' momma-who is.she? We.get some hints in FoD but not much. We can assume MD don't like her or wouldnt like her. I.think I recall mention of Draconian blood in Arathan but I could be confusing him with Nimander. Grizzn knows her/of her. What do you think? Queen of Dreams? Ardata? Burn? I'm gonna read FoD again and try to add some.qutes to this thread.

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 29 August 2013 - 10:58 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

i still maintain that edgewalker is father light. even if that means urusander is edgewalker. i can see no other ready candidates that fit. not even from FoD. tulas shorn? dead in hoods war. scara bandaris? we all know the story. an azathanai might be edgewalker, but it feels off. the only azathanai we know of who ever became undead is olar ethil. through the ritual of tellann, she turned into a back of dried of sticks and stones of her own accord. most of the others find it abhorrent and unless there's some azathanai we're yet to meet who is as crazy as olar ethil, which i admit is possible, then urusander seems the most likely option.

as for who kruppe is, i believe SE has been asked this very question, probably around the time the TOR reread was hitting MOI and Caladan Brood wasn't hitting our favourite eel. someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i think he said kruppe is just kruppe, an amazingly skilled practitioner of mockra, like, savant level. the highest of high mages. and if he uses all his power to simply fool everyone around him rather than crush their minds with raw power, well, that just proves his genius.

[NefaraisBredd]

Thanks! I was trying to remember the Warren of illusion (mockra) but it wasn't coming to me. I guess I was hopin for a more 'mysterious' origin of Kruppes' powers but that makes sense. His genius combined with an aptitude for magic would be all that hé really needs.

As for Edgewalker, I never thought that it might be Father Light. Now that you mention it, he could be the Hust forgemaster as well. Thanks for your contributions!

[Trull's son]

Mockra is the warren of the mind, I suppose, not so much illusion. I like the Urusander = Edgewalker idea. Not sure there's much evidence supporting it, but the fact that Urusander is such a prominent character in Forge and yet makes no appearance and is not mentioned throughout the original series seems a bit off.

[Abyss]

NefaraisBredd, on 29 August 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

I guess i need to be more specific in my posts-I am aware that Kruppe wasn't the circle breaker as such,

ummm...

NefaraisBredd, on 29 August 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

...* Kruppe is the circle breaker...

...so yeah, you might want to work on that.

Quote

... I just think that there is more than charisma at work when it comes to Kruppe. For example, why do people always forget important things that they want to speak to Kruppe about ? How is it that hé can see through Any glamour/spells ? ...

Sinisdar Toste, on 30 August 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

...as for who kruppe is, i believe SE has been asked this very question, probably around the time the TOR reread was hitting MOI and Caladan Brood wasn't hitting our favourite eel. someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i think he said kruppe is just kruppe, an amazingly skilled practitioner of mockra, like, savant level. the highest of high mages. and if he uses all his power to simply fool everyone around him rather than crush their minds with raw power, well, that just proves his genius.

To mindfuck the High Alchemist, He's got to have High Mokra at a minimum, and that usually brings along some Meanas, Rashan and Thyr for good measure.

Quote

Edgewalker is à mystery. Although he appears to be 'inactive' due to his lack of action, i've always considéréd the quiet ones (who dont do or say much) the most dangerous ...Shadow may he broken but it is still immense. Edgewalker shows up everywhere (eg: Blood&Bone) cause he is the guardian of Shadow. The hounds don't bother him and Shadowthrone is vexed with him yet he won't move against him. If I remember correctly, NOBODY crosses Shadowthrone (excepting Quick Ben and he is CraZy) I can't get away.from the .feeling that Edgewalker is Arathan, or a Tiste.

It's pretty clear he's got something going on, and while we have yet to see him act directly, he still manages to influence events, by example he helped Temper with a warning, and he encouraged Cots to free the thre chained dragons.

Quote

.... I am referring to Arathans' momma-who is.she? We.get some hints in FoD but not much. We can assume MD don't like her or wouldnt like her. I.think I recall mention of Draconian blood in Arathan but I could be confusing him with Nimander. ...

Afaik, not Draconus nor any of his kids are soletaken as of the end of FoD.

Sinisdar Toste, on 30 August 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

i still maintain that edgewalker is father light. even if that means urusander is edgewalker. i can see no other ready candidates that fit. not even from FoD. tulas shorn? dead in hoods war. scara bandaris? we all know the story. an azathanai might be edgewalker, but it feels off. the only azathanai we know of who ever became undead is olar ethil. through the ritual of tellann, she turned into a back of dried of sticks and stones of her own accord. most of the others find it abhorrent and unless there's some azathanai we're yet to meet who is as crazy as olar ethil, which i admit is possible, then urusander seems the most likely option.
....

NefaraisBredd, on 30 August 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

...As for Edgewalker, I never thought that it might be Father Light. Now that you mention it, he could be the Hust forgemaster as well. Thanks for your contributions!

Trull, on 30 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

...I like the Urusander = Edgewalker idea. Not sure there's much evidence supporting it, but the fact that Urusander is such a prominent character in Forge and yet makes no appearance and is not mentioned throughout the original series seems a bit off.

For what little we know, it's entirely possible.

Up until RG i held out hope he might be Scabby Bloodeye, but that seems impossible now.

[Daeg]

I like this topic as it applies to kruppe. It seems to me that power beckons power....

People become powerful one of 2 ways....they are children of the powerful or they are an anomaly. A convergence.

Its hard to explain people like dassem or trull or kruppe or karsa or tool without accepting the concept of power convergence.

Along those lines...when anyone gains sudden power..ganoes paran as master of the deck for example...a convergence takes place and power gathers to the convergence point.

I think treach is a two-fold example...he is child to kilava so he is born powerful...but until he physically dies his true power has not converged to the point of ascendance.

That's just my point of view. My explanation is not terribly thorough and certainly invites holes to be poked in it. =)

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on 30 August 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

as for who kruppe is, i believe SE has been asked this very question, probably around the time the TOR reread was hitting MOI and Caladan Brood wasn't hitting our favourite eel. someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i think he said kruppe is just kruppe, an amazingly skilled practitioner of mockra, like, savant level. the highest of high mages. and if he uses all his power to simply fool everyone around him rather than crush their minds with raw power, well, that just proves his genius.

If it's the same one I'm thinking of, SE basically said Kruppe was a mystery even to SE himself, ie there are many possible explanations but the series itself doesn't indicate which one is "right".

The thing with Kruppe is that he absolutely could be nothing more than what he seems - an exceptional genius, middling Mockra user, and spy master with a friend named K'rul. Everything we see him knowing can be chalked up to K'rul or his spy network, none of his schemes need him to be more than a very intelligent mortal man, and we rarely see direct magic interfacing with him, in which case it is usually small-time Mockra stuff like making Murillio forget things.

Kruppe *could* be the long-forgotten Grandmother Dark in disguise, or he could be "just" an exceptional mortal, and I like that both are possible.

[NefaraisBredd]

Wow, I just realized how stupid I am, lol. Arathan and GF exist as separate entities.in.the same.space and time. Obviously not a good theory, duh!

[king in chains]

i am convinced that vatha urusander is edgewalker -by the way that statement is not plagerised -sarcasm,ah the naivety of youth

[theocean]

have we really ever seen anyone try to take a stand against edgewalker?? Verbally or physically? I cant recall anyone really giving him any backt alk.