[Dolmen 2.0]

Solidsnape, on 10 August 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Satan, on 10 August 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Alright, fine! I'll be the oddball! Again!

The question has two parts, both which demands considerations: How would each of them protect you and how would the other eight get at you? By pure, deductive reasoning, there should really only be a contest between two contenders: Darth Vader, as you all seem to like so much, and the Predator. Why? Because the have INTERSTELLAR SPACE SHIPS! Have one of those spirit you away would automatically put you out of reach for the other seven. If it was a question of who would come out in single combat, it'd be a lot harder to decide. But it's not. It's about who can keep the others from getting to you.

At first I was with the rest of you. Darthy is clearly the most badass for pure power. He can command planet destroying weaponry. His space ship armada is a power beyond what any of the others can muster (unless Hellboy goes all horny on us, of course). And that's before you count in his power over the force. If it was a dick measuring contest, his would probably be the smallest of them all. Unfortunately, his also notoriously bad at hide and seek. The Star Wars movies documents fairly well how easy it is to hide from the Empire. Nevermind that he can destroy planets, if he doesn't know which planet you are on that little trick becomes useless. And it will become useless if Preddy is the one to protect you. If ever there was a hide and seek champion, it was Anne Frank. But a very close second was The Predator. For fuck's sake, both he and his ship has cloaking! He doesn't even have to try! He'd just flip a switch and we'd cruise to a planet with a good climate that isn't an historical hunting ground for slightly too big a prey. Vader would spend the rest of his days blowing up planets willy nilly and the rest would stomp their feet back on earth (given that Vader hasn't blown it up yet).

This also works the other way around. Darth, never the most conspicuous of men, would not be hard to find in a galaxy and it is embarrassingly easy to sneak aboard one of his ships. Predators - hunters extraordinaire - would be in, slit my throat, and out again before my body had hit the floor. There's no way Vader would be able to hold them off forever. He'd have to be with me all the time. Like, ALL THE TIME! When I'd go for a poop, there he'd be, watching me, with that heavy breathing of his. Going to bed? There he'd be, tortuously breathing in your ear until you fall asleep. Having a morning shower (yes, maccy, a morning shower)? Be prepared to be grossed out when he takes his armour off! The second he'd take his eyes off you, the Predators would strike.

You can keep your Vader. I'll have The Predator protect me, thank you very much.

A very convincing argument. I'll give you that.

IF we're talking Hide and go seek here...I'm almost swayed. one issue I see here is the fact you will have to live with a predator. they are ugly. I'm not keen on bunking up with anything that opens its mouth in four directions.

also pretty sure batman has inter dimensional travel so he takes his hide and go seek up a notch or two.

[Tiste Simeon]

I think Bryns post could be one of the best/geekiest posts I have read in a long time.

I also have a bit of a Jackman man crush (hands off Una!!) but he gets beaten by a team of ninjas where Batman beats a team of ninjas... Hmmm... Will have to consider it further...

[Elzhi]

Satan, on 10 August 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Alright, fine! I'll be the oddball! Again!

The question has two parts, both which demands considerations: How would each of them protect you and how would the other eight get at you? By pure, deductive reasoning, there should really only be a contest between two contenders: Darth Vader, as you all seem to like so much, and the Predator. Why? Because the have INTERSTELLAR SPACE SHIPS! Have one of those spirit you away would automatically put you out of reach for the other seven. If it was a question of who would come out in single combat, it'd be a lot harder to decide. But it's not. It's about who can keep the others from getting to you.

At first I was with the rest of you. Darthy is clearly the most badass for pure power. He can command planet destroying weaponry. His space ship armada is a power beyond what any of the others can muster (unless Hellboy goes all horny on us, of course). And that's before you count in his power over the force. If it was a dick measuring contest, his would probably be the smallest of them all. Unfortunately, his also notoriously bad at hide and seek. The Star Wars movies documents fairly well how easy it is to hide from the Empire. Nevermind that he can destroy planets, if he doesn't know which planet you are on that little trick becomes useless. And it will become useless if Preddy is the one to protect you. If ever there was a hide and seek champion, it was Anne Frank. But a very close second was The Predator. For fuck's sake, both he and his ship has cloaking! He doesn't even have to try! He'd just flip a switch and we'd cruise to a planet with a good climate that isn't an historical hunting ground for slightly too big a prey. Vader would spend the rest of his days blowing up planets willy nilly and the rest would stomp their feet back on earth (given that Vader hasn't blown it up yet).

This also works the other way around. Darth, never the most conspicuous of men, would not be hard to find in a galaxy and it is embarrassingly easy to sneak aboard one of his ships. Predators - hunters extraordinaire - would be in, slit my throat, and out again before my body had hit the floor. There's no way Vader would be able to hold them off forever. He'd have to be with me all the time. Like, ALL THE TIME! When I'd go for a poop, there he'd be, watching me, with that heavy breathing of his. Going to bed? There he'd be, tortuously breathing in your ear until you fall asleep. Having a morning shower (yes, maccy, a morning shower)? Be prepared to be grossed out when he takes his armour off! The second he'd take his eyes off you, the Predators would strike.

You can keep your Vader. I'll have The Predator protect me, thank you very much.

Good comparison. Glad I'm not the only Predator fan so far. I hadn't even thought about the Predator's ships.

[amphibian]

I don't get the ship thing so many of you are focusing on.

If one character has a ship, the others presumably are able to get onboard - even Marv, the most out of place person in this entire thing - if they can find the ship.

Not to mention having title or command of a ship means little to nothing in this hyper-hypothetical universe. Marv can hijack some doofy merchant ship, get to a planet or station and then bash his way in. Only RoboCop would be hampered by his moral/ethical obligations from hijacking a ship. He might be able to tag on with some do-gooder billionaire or a mega-Police ship.

Hellboy could magic himself right next to the kidnapee.

[Gnaw]

Dolmen+, on 10 August 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

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I...Cant figure this one out.

Is it a "who can beat up who" question or a logic problem?

Two of the entrants only kill bad guys. Most of the rest claim that but are a bit ambivalent about who gets to define 'bad'.

So if only one is going to protect you it's down to Darth or the Predator.

The Predator doesn't strike me as the type to protect others.

Darth isn't going to help you unless there's something in it for him.

So the only logical answer is:

The 10th choice. The Doctor!

Edit: I forgot to add the implication of the "2 of the entrants only kill bad guys". If only 1 will protect you and 2 only kill bad guys, you must be a bad guy.

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 10 August 2013 - 11:03 PM

[Dolmen 2.0]

I'm assuming this is an obligation type deal. You must be protected regardless of the disposition of the protector. Protection doesn't mean fighting, it means saving your life by any means available, Or so Satan points out quite elaborately.

Darth vader wins on power levels it seems but if all of the other eight are after you at once we question how practical fighting them all can be. Seems running away is the best option.

[tiam]

Satan, on 10 August 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Alright, fine! I'll be the oddball! Again!

The question has two parts, both which demands considerations: How would each of them protect you and how would the other eight get at you? By pure, deductive reasoning, there should really only be a contest between two contenders: Darth Vader, as you all seem to like so much, and the Predator. Why? Because the have INTERSTELLAR SPACE SHIPS! Have one of those spirit you away would automatically put you out of reach for the other seven. If it was a question of who would come out in single combat, it'd be a lot harder to decide. But it's not. It's about who can keep the others from getting to you.

At first I was with the rest of you. Darthy is clearly the most badass for pure power. He can command planet destroying weaponry. His space ship armada is a power beyond what any of the others can muster (unless Hellboy goes all horny on us, of course). And that's before you count in his power over the force. If it was a dick measuring contest, his would probably be the smallest of them all. Unfortunately, his also notoriously bad at hide and seek. The Star Wars movies documents fairly well how easy it is to hide from the Empire. Nevermind that he can destroy planets, if he doesn't know which planet you are on that little trick becomes useless. And it will become useless if Preddy is the one to protect you. If ever there was a hide and seek champion, it was Anne Frank. But a very close second was The Predator. For fuck's sake, both he and his ship has cloaking! He doesn't even have to try! He'd just flip a switch and we'd cruise to a planet with a good climate that isn't an historical hunting ground for slightly too big a prey. Vader would spend the rest of his days blowing up planets willy nilly and the rest would stomp their feet back on earth (given that Vader hasn't blown it up yet).

This also works the other way around. Darth, never the most conspicuous of men, would not be hard to find in a galaxy and it is embarrassingly easy to sneak aboard one of his ships. Predators - hunters extraordinaire - would be in, slit my throat, and out again before my body had hit the floor. There's no way Vader would be able to hold them off forever. He'd have to be with me all the time. Like, ALL THE TIME! When I'd go for a poop, there he'd be, watching me, with that heavy breathing of his. Going to bed? There he'd be, tortuously breathing in your ear until you fall asleep. Having a morning shower (yes, maccy, a morning shower)? Be prepared to be grossed out when he takes his armour off! The second he'd take his eyes off you, the Predators would strike.

You can keep your Vader. I'll have The Predator protect me, thank you very much.

I did initially think this at first but the majority of predators weapons are bladed hand to hand weapons or moderate projectiles as well as a shoulder mounted energy cannon. All of these can be countered by lightsaber plus force. Darth Vader, when it comes down to it, is a master of hand to hand combat aswell as a solid counter to the type of projectile the predator would use.

Based on your own argument of ships rather than me and Darth Vader sat on my couch waiting for this lot to turn up and make a mess of my scatter cushions id still go with Darth. The only Predators we see have fairly small ships that can cloak which I admit is better for escaping but as you point out Vader could destroy the planet you were on. Plus, by your very own arguement, these people have massively different resources at their disposal. Darth Vader is the second in command of a galactic empire whereas as the predator would be a lone wolf style hunter. Now no doubt he could get aboard a star destroyer, or even a Death Star, without too much trouble but hed probably be detected by Vaders force sense. An unknown alien species, not exactly known for its subtlety in any film usually involving borderline ritualistic killings of subordinates, would probably kill a few woefully inaccurate storm troopers. In other words Darth would know he was coming and could act accordingly using the resources at his command. If the Storm Trooper failed, which they almost certainly would, and it came down to Darth and Predator you have to go with Darth for the reasons I mentioned. He'd either see the projectiles coming, even that fancy net thingy thats unbreakable, and counter them with dodging or lightsaber or even blocking that shoulder cannon ala Lando's dining hall. Toe to toe with Darth being able to use force projectiles and the fact hes fully encased in armour that would provide some protection to the small projectile darts the Predator uses it would come down to Lightsaber vs giant metal claw thingy that the predator unsheaths from his arm. In that battle the lightsaber would win, in the same way it would win over wolverine.

As for Dolmens argument that running away seem like the right option and Amphs argument that some of the character on there arent used to space travel but could hijack merchant ships Vader is still your best bet. Running away with the entire galactic empire at your protectors command might sound alot more conspicuous than hiding on a jungle planet with a cloaked predator but it isnt really. How would the Predator, or any of the others, know what ship you were on. With Vader theres a chance of him picking up his target with the force, but the predator has to go looking. His senses can be fooled by a 40 year old bodybuilder in some mud lying down 5 feet away.

As for amphs arguement of other hijacking merchant ships id have to say there inexperience in space flight and conventions would have them running afoul of the galactic empire. But even if they were able to somehow get on board they would be detected much earlier than predator.

Terminator- Would only have the weapons of the time at his disposal as hes been sent back and thus is would be easily dealt with by the technology of the time. If he somehow got close to me and vader sat on the death star ironically playing space invaders then hes shown him self to be a fairly sluggish hand to hand combatant in T2 and would be sliced apart by Vader.

Batman- If he could get on board then he would be detected in the same way as predator thus losing his most useful tool of stealth. Even if the waves of Stormtroopers didnt get him, and we know they wouldnt, then his weaponry is similar to the Predators, kinetic bladed weapons that could be parried or forcestopped by Vader. Hes is also not tooled for wet work rather for disorientation so would have to get close to kill me. Any other close quarters methods of disorientating (Flashbangs, Gas Pellets, Darth Vader repellent spray if this is Adam West) would be countered by Vaders helmet blocking it all and regulating his breathing.

Wolverine- Couldnt sneak anywhere and would be cut in half by Vader or forcestopped like Magneto does to him in every xmen film ever. Thrown into space.

Hellboy- Again not subtle couldnt sneak in and get the job done. Force of numbers thrown into space.

Judge Dredd- Just a guy with a multi tool pistol. Easily dealt with.

Marv- Just a guy

Robocop- While identifying himself Vader would simply claim to be a top ceo of Omni Consumer Products and while Robocop was checking vader would force steal his gun.

These people would never get onboard however so Predator is the only threat.

Yes I am off work today with too much time on my hands

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 11 August 2013 - 09:16 AM

[Silencer]

OK, so you've all identified a flaw in the setup. Or possibly several flaws.

Darth Vader is clearly OP. However, the real issue here is whether it is *just* the characters in question and what they would have, literally to hand at the time, or whether they have everything at their disposal they could conceivably have - i.e. can an entire fleet of Predator ships be summoned by the single Predator to cloak and subsequently presumably curb-stomp most of the Imperial fleet with their plasma-based weaponry (bearing in mind that one plasmacaster bolt can apparently penetrate a spacefaring vessel's hull if properly charged, ala AvP: Requiem...); or, does Darth have the entire Imperial war machine at his disposal?

If we make this purely a contest of combatants, and we assume that the parameters are quite clear: one protects you, the other eight, together, hunt you and your protector...does this change anything? Can Vader stop/avoid all eight of those others long enough to get them separated and take them one-by-one? Because honestly, lightsabers and the force are wonderful against a few people with absurdly slow-moving "blaster" projectiles...how would they fare against a 4000rpm, never-before-identified weapon that fires kinetic projectiles so small and fast that, even should you react with your lightsaber fast enough to deflect/melt/vaporize one or two, the other fifty or five hundred projectiles leave you a shredded mess? While dealing with seven other people all doing similar things to you? (Keeping with the movies here, as source material for abilities)

Basically: better definition of the scenario is required. Character's knowledge, tools, aides, and location are all important factors.

I mean, I'd *love* to see Darth try and stop a railgun projectile, I really would. Considering Yoda can barely hold up a falling pillar, how the fuck is Vader supposed to stop something moving at five to TEN TIMES the speed of sound and massing about the equivalent of a small book; did I mention this gives it an approximate muzzle energy of 35 GIGAJOULES?

Or, fuck, what if someone decided to nuke the guy from orbit? (It's the only way to be sure.)

Come on, people, be creative here! Challenge yourselves!



(Personally, I feel that none of those people on that list are enough, by themselves, to withstand a modern military attempt on your life. And frankly, the Terminator can get a hold of that kind of shit pretty easily. I'd much rather have all nine of them trying to kill me, and my avatar protecting me. Or Accelerator. Mmm...Accelerator...XD)

[Kanese S's]

I agreed with Satan's logic at first... except there's one thing I realized I needed to ask. What does the world look like to Darth Vader? Is his vision behind that mask the same as everyone else's, or did he have various other sensors and infrared and so on added, just because why not? This plus his force sense gives him the advantage, I think, as it would neutralize the Predator's most significant advantage, its stealth.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Silencer, on 11 August 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

OK, so you've all identified a flaw in the setup. Or possibly several flaws.

Darth Vader is clearly OP. However, the real issue here is whether it is *just* the characters in question and what they would have, literally to hand at the time, or whether they have everything at their disposal they could conceivably have - i.e. can an entire fleet of Predator ships be summoned by the single Predator to cloak and subsequently presumably curb-stomp most of the Imperial fleet with their plasma-based weaponry (bearing in mind that one plasmacaster bolt can apparently penetrate a spacefaring vessel's hull if properly charged, ala AvP: Requiem...); or, does Darth have the entire Imperial war machine at his disposal?

If we make this purely a contest of combatants, and we assume that the parameters are quite clear: one protects you, the other eight, together, hunt you and your protector...does this change anything? Can Vader stop/avoid all eight of those others long enough to get them separated and take them one-by-one? Because honestly, lightsabers and the force are wonderful against a few people with absurdly slow-moving "blaster" projectiles...how would they fare against a 4000rpm, never-before-identified weapon that fires kinetic projectiles so small and fast that, even should you react with your lightsaber fast enough to deflect/melt/vaporize one or two, the other fifty or five hundred projectiles leave you a shredded mess? While dealing with seven other people all doing similar things to you? (Keeping with the movies here, as source material for abilities)

Basically: better definition of the scenario is required. Character's knowledge, tools, aides, and location are all important factors.

I mean, I'd *love* to see Darth try and stop a railgun projectile, I really would. Considering Yoda can barely hold up a falling pillar, how the fuck is Vader supposed to stop something moving at five to TEN TIMES the speed of sound and massing about the equivalent of a small book; did I mention this gives it an approximate muzzle energy of 35 GIGAJOULES?

Or, fuck, what if someone decided to nuke the guy from orbit? (It's the only way to be sure.)

Come on, people, be creative here! Challenge yourselves!



(Personally, I feel that none of those people on that list are enough, by themselves, to withstand a modern military attempt on your life. And frankly, the Terminator can get a hold of that kind of shit pretty easily. I'd much rather have all nine of them trying to kill me, and my avatar protecting me. Or Accelerator. Mmm...Accelerator...XD)

Ok establishing the parameters is very important. I think we need to start limiting things. as said by Silencer if Darth Vader has a Star ship, the empire and all its denizens at his disposal then we need to evaluate what the others can bring to the Suaree. Firstly I imagine a no team-ups rule with fellow heavy hitters seems illogical but it has to be limited so as to fairly rely on the individuals ability to get at or protect you with resources at their disposal. Effectively the Predators are a race of heavy hitters and terminator is one model of a long line of diverse manufactured killing machines. to limit these guys purely to themselves negates the possibility of ingenuity so I suggest we do this:

GRANDE MALAZAN CONVERGENCE OF DOOM STYLE.

Setting the scale for an interstellar war for your life our D-limiters are:

Predator: Gets support from one(1) Predator tech Spacecraft, Plasma weapons in tow. Possibility of weaponizing trapped aliens is allowed but limited to one queen and three daughters and whatever Mayhem may ensue from that strange octopus thing we saw in Prometheus. Because why not?

Batman: Can call on all his Gotham Based allies and quasi-neutral enemies. Can use his full range of technologies as explained in every movie and series to date. No JLA, because that would be cheating...*

The Terminator: Shall be reviewed to encompass full capabilities of Skynet because thats just how we do. *

Judge dread: Full future Law assistance from all the Judge enforcers and allies linked to Judge dread that are "mortal".

Hell Boy: Team in tow. access to full range of powers at his full maturity.

Marv: Is just Marv actually. I guess he can bring his Sin city buddies but really nobody would know why.

Robo-Cop: Uploads the modern military police standard. Whatever is available to the military they make available to him. Effectively he is upgraded to near Ironman status because lets face it they are cut from the same cloth and a modern version of Robocop would actually kick as much ass.

Wolverine: can call on exactly Three x-men. If everyone else gets ships and planet destroyers, Wolvie gets to bring along his buddies. NO PHOENIX.

Finally Vader: is Vader to the fullest extent of the word. Can enlist one subordinate and has access to one(1) Deathstar. All force Subordinates are no higher than Padawan level, only two other Sith with force capabilities.


*Reference tech and skills you argue with if it is possible please. not all of us are current with all the aboves technologies and or abilities!

Not sure this changes anything but I think it sets up a a grander scenario which makes it alot more enjoyable.

EDIT: Shall I throw in a locational scope aswell?

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 11 August 2013 - 11:53 AM

[amphibian]

Batman gets a ysalamir backpack. That's just standard operating procedure.

I think all of you are discounting how valuable that creature becomes against Vader. It's his Kryptonite.

[BAD]

I choose Pikachu.

[Dolmen 2.0]

amphibian, on 11 August 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Batman gets a ysalamir backpack. That's just standard operating procedure.

I think all of you are discounting how valuable that creature becomes against Vader. It's his Kryptonite.

Ok lets analyze it that way:

Just read up on the Backpack. Logically speaking each one of the other guys above has something similar if we talking Batman none of them are outside his ability to pre-empt. The factor here is this: Batman needs time to take out the biggest threat. his best chance to do that is to take the offensive and to go alone. leaving you alone.

That Back-pack is a game changer. Vader is still pretty damn skilled without the force though, I wonder as to how reliant his life support systems are to his power? still he wouldn't be a walkover and the time batman would need to nullify Vader would put you at risk against all the other guys after you. Your approach then pegs on Robin, Batgirl, Nightwing, Catwoman and Talia(possibly) and ofcourse Alfred to hold the other guys off while Batman effectively Chuck Norrises the Deathstar.

The best bet is to have the defence team run exploitation strategies to negate the threats posed:

-So theres Amph in the Batcave yelling "Come at me bro!"

Wolverines exploit would be deep water (he isn't that good a swimmer because he is shit heavy). Also the obvious Magnetism.
Same to Robocop and Most things Skynet. then again I'm not sure Robo needs to breathe???
Oh and ofcourse as you mentioned above an EMP grenade would do wonders here.

So team Batman setup a few Magnetic fields and set a few EMP charges.

Next its the Predators who are thermally detected and easily picked up on thermal scanners off likeminded logic.
They are invisible but overconfident and overlook things like austrian guys covered in mud. Batman has the same standard tech,
occular lens camouflage etc. A deadly game of hide and go seek ensues but I'm certain because they are underestimated
and have homeground advantage team Batman would probably clean up...Unless the Predator ship fires from Orbit...something
I doubt they'd do because sport and what-not. I'm estimating Team Batman manage largely uncompromised.

Marv and co would actually be a tough match up for the team heroes. I assume they arrive last because they are actually all average joes and have day jobs and such.
Thing is Marv is surprisingly sneaky. he plans ahead really well and fights dirty. I'd actually peg him squarely against a single predator because him and Arnie are practically cousins...
So between team Marv and team predator a take down of atleast 50% of Team Batmans forces is likely. Largely depends on whether Elijah woods agrees to tag along.

Now for Hellboy. I honestly don't know if hell boy has an obvious exploit other than threatening his girl? someone else will have to pitch in there. in my mind betting on Batman is VERY iffy.

[amphibian]

Hellboy doesn't know how to fight super-well - just take world-class beatings and keep on ticking. He could be immobilized with BatLine after being tased a few dozen times. He'll shake it off eventually and get out, but that's plenty of time for Batman to get you away.

This whole thing is essentially ridiculous, but so is the entire concept of the Batman. He shouldn't be able to take out every hero or villain as a vanilla human with infinite wealth. Even awe-inspiring planning skills can't prepare one for how fast, strong and improvisationally smart some of these beings can be. But the weak points of the others here are likely sufficient to allow him to defeat them.

I'd actually say RoboCop is the worst being on that list. He's terrible.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 11 August 2013 - 07:31 PM

[Aptorian]

The fact that you are all beginning to introduce element X into the discussion is sort of making the decision mute.

Batman gets prep time and we know he will just deus ex machina something up in his lab.

The predator gets to use his space ship and we know he can just Stealth nuke everyone from orbit.

Darth Vader doesn't need his force powers if he gets to bring a Star Destroyer with him to the planet.

Hell Boy can... well, I honestly have no idea what Apocalypse Mode Hell Boy is capable of but I am sure it involves Hell on Earth.

Terminator has the backing of Skynet and suddenly biological weaponry designed in the future with the knowledge of the opponents of the past suddenly ports in.

Wolverine gets Mutant back up and now you have people like Forge, Professor X, Magneto or what ever world conquering mutant you want.

The only ones I don't really believe in is Robocop, Dredd and especially Marv.

The discussion only really makes sense if it is some kind of Secret Wars style event where the Game Master has teleported all the players onto a different planet/world/plane of existence and only their personal abilities and characteristics matter. In which case it has to be Vader and/or maybe Hell Boy are the players to bet on.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 11 August 2013 - 07:32 PM

[Dolmen 2.0]

Aptorius, on 11 August 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

The fact that you are all beginning to introduce element X into the discussion is sort of making the decision mute.

Batman gets prep time and we know he will just deus ex machina something up in his lab.

The predator gets to use his space ship and we know he can just Stealth nuke everyone from orbit.

Darth Vader doesn't need his force powers if he gets to bring a Star Destroyer with him to the planet.

Hell Boy can... well, I honestly have no idea what Apocalypse Mode Hell Boy is capable of but I am sure it involves Hell on Earth.

Terminator has the backing of Skynet and suddenly biological weaponry designed in the future with the knowledge of the opponents of the past suddenly ports in.

Wolverine gets Mutant back up and now you have people like Forge, Professor X, Magneto or what ever world conquering mutant you want.

The only ones I don't really believe in is Robocop, Dredd and especially Marv.

The discussion only really makes sense if it is some kind of Secret Wars style event where the Game Master has teleported all the players onto a different planet/world/plane of existence and only their personal abilities and characteristics matter. In which case it has to be Vader and/or maybe Hell Boy are the players to bet on.

Its still uneven and impossible in a secret Wars type deal as some guys don't have any weaponry or unlimited resources at all i.e. Wolverine. In a scenario where everyone has absolutely no equipment there is no possibility of them handling all other 8 and protecting you at the same time. not even Vadar amounts to much without a lightsaber. Force lightening and force holds could not hold up everyone at once. fact is 8 versus 1 is unfair and impractical and is only worth looking at with the full dispensation of the characters abilities and resources.

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 11 August 2013 - 07:53 PM

[Aptorian]

Dolmen+, on 11 August 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Force lightening and force holds could not hold up everyone at once. fact is 8 versus 1 is unfair and impractical and is only worth looking at with the full dispensation of the characters abilities and resources.

If you look at what the Expanded Star Wars Universe says Jedi's are supposed to be capable of and ignore the old movies, then crushing every other opponent to paste would have been a walk in the park for Vader. Not counting Old Republic era Jedis, Vader is supposed to have been the greatest Jedi ever. A chosen one, with midiclorians raining out every orifice. We're talking about a Jedi who as a battle commander was managing thousands if not millions of minds during combat making sure to boost efficiency and moral during combat across an entire fleet. You think he isn't capable of observing and handling 8 other opponents? Lesser mortals that he simply has to lift off the ground to incapacitate. I don't remember if Jedi's are able to sense Droids, so the Terminator might be a wild card, but the rest, eh. They'd need to attempt some kind of Dresden Files trickery with long distance sniping to have a chance against Vader.

If you think 8 versus 1 was an unfar and impractical scenario then why use it in the first place. Of course one character will have an advantage over another if you make up a scenario where one is in control and in its element. It's only if you draw these characters out of their natural element you can gauge who is superior. In which case Vader is the favorite simply because of his natural abilities. Even in a scenario designed to aid any one of the characters on the chart Vader is still a favorite simply because of what he brings to the game. You talk about force dampening backpacks. Well, how does this back pack protect the wearer from having the entire room collapse around them like a crushed soda can? Or say a giant hunk of concrete tossed at them?

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 11 August 2013 - 08:20 PM

[Solidsnape]

It's just got to be Vadar. His inability to run not withstanding.

[Morgoth]

Jesus christ, no wonder we hang out on a fantasy book forum.

I think it''s easy to forget that Darth Vader is trained as a Jedi, which means partially as a stealth operative functioning behind enemy lines. Ergo, he should be well capable of the sort of guerrilla style warfare one would require to defeat the other eight. In addition, Although, being the strongest wielder of the force until the arrival of Luke I wonder if he would struggle even facing all eight simoultaneously.

The Predator has invisibility which is easily countered by Vader's force sensitivity.

Adding spaceships and all that makes it a little silly. Either it's just the character with the normal assortment of gadgets, or it's everything in which case Vader has entire Imperial war machine at his disposal.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Aptorius, on 11 August 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Dolmen+, on 11 August 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Force lightening and force holds could not hold up everyone at once. fact is 8 versus 1 is unfair and impractical and is only worth looking at with the full dispensation of the characters abilities and resources.

If you look at what the Expanded Star Wars Universe says Jedi's are supposed to be capable of and ignore the old movies, then crushing every other opponent to paste would have been a walk in the park for Vader. Not counting Old Republic era Jedis, Vader is supposed to have been the greatest Jedi ever. A chosen one, with midiclorians raining out every orifice. We're talking about a Jedi who as a battle commander was managing thousands if not millions of minds during combat making sure to boost efficiency and moral during combat across an entire fleet. You think he isn't capable of observing and handling 8 other opponents? Lesser mortals that he simply has to lift off the ground to incapacitate. I don't remember if Jedi's are able to sense Droids, so the Terminator might be a wild card, but the rest, eh. They'd need to attempt some kind of Dresden Files trickery with long distance sniping to have a chance against Vader.If you think 8 versus 1 was an unfar and impractical scenario then why use it in the first place. Of course one character will have an advantage over another if you make up a scenario where one is in control and in its element. It's only if you draw these characters out of their natural element you can gauge who is superior. In which case Vader is the favorite simply because of his natural abilities. Even in a scenario designed to aid any one of the characters on the chart Vader is still a favorite simply because of what he brings to the game. You talk about force dampening backpacks. Well, how does this back pack protect the wearer from having the entire room collapse around them like a crushed soda can? Or say a giant hunk of concrete tossed at them?

Ok, firstly I'm not the one that put the scenario together, I simply brought it here and modified it a little because I personally couldn't figure it out. Heres what I do think of the scenario. If you elect a protector that protector gets a head start and draws your hunters to them. Thus the Protector by default should have home advantage picking where to protect you and how. In such a situation a protector can flee to the planet ysalamir for example where Force powers are exempt. If you want to go Vanilla on such a situation, no Nukes or teams, then situational placing is the only other viable strategy for a prospective Protector. Negating all these options is actually not fair at all. It's effectively herding sheep to Wolves.

The other aspect of protecting is co-ordinating your resources to handle opposition coming at you with whatever they can. I think it is very unlikely to have a fair fight regardless no matter how you look at it Mcguffins and the like are a given. By your explanation Vader is a living Mcguffin. how can you argue against leveling that playing field by introducing similar alternative super powers and a wider set of parameters?

The limiters I set are, I hope, balancers to get the underpowered elements of the cast a little more consideration. like you say the backpack has a field of effect that would not negate a force thrown projectile. Thats a perfectly reasonable approach to take, making it hard for anyone to defend against Vader but if Vader was the protector he'd be hard pressed to sense approaching threats wearing the pack and even more so if attacked simultaneously by several people wearing the pack since the negated space grows exponentially when two or more of these things are in close proximity.

Its a possibility hard to imagine. Only one group would really be able to pull that sort of thing off and that's the Predators. they can get the Pack and stealth their way into whatever place Darth Vader is keeping you hid. Darth Vaders defences are not his strongest point because he rarely bothers with sound defence. He is that powerful. I don't think any of the others have the means to get to ysalamir so if Vader can take care of the predators then yes, logicaly he is the best protector for the job.

Morgoth, on 11 August 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Jesus christ, no wonder we hang out on a fantasy book forum. I think it''s easy to forget that Darth Vader is trained as a Jedi, which means partially as a stealth operative functioning behind enemy lines. Ergo, he should be well capable of the sort of guerrilla style warfare one would require to defeat the other eight. In addition, Although, being the strongest wielder of the force until the arrival of Luke I wonder if he would struggle even facing all eight simoultaneously. The Predator has invisibility which is easily countered by Vader's force sensitivity. Adding spaceships and all that makes it a little silly. Either it's just the character with the normal assortment of gadgets, or it's everything in which case Vader has entire Imperial war machine at his disposal.

YUP. Think this threads mere existence levels up the forumns collective nerdiness. I've doomed us all.

I think it has to be everything. Everyone sees it as a battle Royale but if charged with protecting someone you take charge of their placing, you don't just head out to kill everything and leave your charge behind to fend for itself. The offensive option is present only if we assume that you have someone to look after the charge while the protector is out nullifying the other 8 who are hunting the charge in question. Well that's the logic I'm taking from this anyways. In such a case its really a team game. (but again that's just how I see it.)

Personally I'm more interested in the scenario rather than the outcome. Wouldn't be worried about who protects me as much as, like Satan pointed out, how they can go about it. For example, I would not be cozy in a Deathstar. Its like waiting patiently for someone to figure out the huge architectural flaw that is the hypermatter annihilator reactor core exhaust ports.