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Sochi Olympics - A Winter of Hate

#121 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 13 February 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 13 February 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

To be cynical on the recent topic, there is a reason that the LBGQ aspect is being played up on Canadian media, and moreso by Canadian politicians, greater than the humans rights violations prevalent in China were. China is a key trade partner to Canada and a market that we are looking to invest in further in terms of exports. There is less trade between Canada and Russia, and little room for trade expansion as our key exports are resources Russia also has.

To be cynical about the topic in general, I believe much of the uproar is due to how recently the laws regarding distribution of propoganda were enacted. I really don't remember much outcry regarding LGBTQ rights, or human rights in general, when Qatar was awarded the World Cup. There was outcry, but it was mostly about FIFA being corrupt and bribery.

That is not to say that there shouldn't be outcry, or that what is occuring in Russia is in any way acceptable, but in my view some things (eg. the aforementioned media coverage) will tend to focus on certain situautions.



While the above may be true, I don't think laying down as a country and just accepting it, since there is historical evidence that we've let other instances slide, is the right answer. You can be cynical all you like, but citing past instances where the world didn't get involved (on the scale that it is with Russia) is not a reason NOT to do so now. If anything we need to grasp onto these instances/situations where the world ACTUALLY takes notice (unlike with China), and let the righteous outcry fly.


...or to put it a slightly different way: "if you're not equally furious about everything, you're not entitled to be furious about any one thing" is a circularly flawed position.
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#122 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:24 PM

View PostGothos, on 12 February 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

thought bisexual already covered that?

and I'm from that poor strip of land shoveled between Germany and Russia, Poland.


Some people may feel that "bisexual" doesn't quite cover their specific sexuality, or might have issues with the gender binary.
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#123 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:30 PM

View PostAbyss, on 13 February 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 13 February 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 13 February 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

To be cynical on the recent topic, there is a reason that the LBGQ aspect is being played up on Canadian media, and moreso by Canadian politicians, greater than the humans rights violations prevalent in China were. China is a key trade partner to Canada and a market that we are looking to invest in further in terms of exports. There is less trade between Canada and Russia, and little room for trade expansion as our key exports are resources Russia also has.

To be cynical about the topic in general, I believe much of the uproar is due to how recently the laws regarding distribution of propoganda were enacted. I really don't remember much outcry regarding LGBTQ rights, or human rights in general, when Qatar was awarded the World Cup. There was outcry, but it was mostly about FIFA being corrupt and bribery.

That is not to say that there shouldn't be outcry, or that what is occuring in Russia is in any way acceptable, but in my view some things (eg. the aforementioned media coverage) will tend to focus on certain situautions.



While the above may be true, I don't think laying down as a country and just accepting it, since there is historical evidence that we've let other instances slide, is the right answer. You can be cynical all you like, but citing past instances where the world didn't get involved (on the scale that it is with Russia) is not a reason NOT to do so now. If anything we need to grasp onto these instances/situations where the world ACTUALLY takes notice (unlike with China), and let the righteous outcry fly.


...or to put it a slightly different way: "if you're not equally furious about everything, you're not entitled to be furious about any one thing" is a circularly flawed position.


Not to mention that expecting more from Russia than from Saudi Arabia Light is a pretty rational position to take. I expect Iraq to go execute gays. I'd be appalled if France made a law restricting gay rights.
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#124 User is offline   Gwynn ap Nudd 

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 04:23 AM

View PostQuickTidal, on 13 February 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 13 February 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

To be cynical on the recent topic, there is a reason that the LBGQ aspect is being played up on Canadian media, and moreso by Canadian politicians, greater than the humans rights violations prevalent in China were. China is a key trade partner to Canada and a market that we are looking to invest in further in terms of exports. There is less trade between Canada and Russia, and little room for trade expansion as our key exports are resources Russia also has.

To be cynical about the topic in general, I believe much of the uproar is due to how recently the laws regarding distribution of propoganda were enacted. I really don't remember much outcry regarding LGBTQ rights, or human rights in general, when Qatar was awarded the World Cup. There was outcry, but it was mostly about FIFA being corrupt and bribery.

That is not to say that there shouldn't be outcry, or that what is occuring in Russia is in any way acceptable, but in my view some things (eg. the aforementioned media coverage) will tend to focus on certain situautions.



While the above may be true, I don't think laying down as a country and just accepting it, since there is historical evidence that we've let other instances slide, is the right answer. You can be cynical all you like, but citing past instances where the world didn't get involved (on the scale that it is with Russia) is not a reason NOT to do so now. If anything we need to grasp onto these instances/situations where the world ACTUALLY takes notice (unlike with China), and let the righteous outcry fly.


I was not making an argument that people should not object, and even said so.
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#125 User is offline   Gwynn ap Nudd 

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 04:38 AM

View PostMorgoth, on 13 February 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 13 February 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 13 February 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 13 February 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

To be cynical on the recent topic, there is a reason that the LBGQ aspect is being played up on Canadian media, and moreso by Canadian politicians, greater than the humans rights violations prevalent in China were. China is a key trade partner to Canada and a market that we are looking to invest in further in terms of exports. There is less trade between Canada and Russia, and little room for trade expansion as our key exports are resources Russia also has.

To be cynical about the topic in general, I believe much of the uproar is due to how recently the laws regarding distribution of propoganda were enacted. I really don't remember much outcry regarding LGBTQ rights, or human rights in general, when Qatar was awarded the World Cup. There was outcry, but it was mostly about FIFA being corrupt and bribery.

That is not to say that there shouldn't be outcry, or that what is occuring in Russia is in any way acceptable, but in my view some things (eg. the aforementioned media coverage) will tend to focus on certain situautions.



While the above may be true, I don't think laying down as a country and just accepting it, since there is historical evidence that we've let other instances slide, is the right answer. You can be cynical all you like, but citing past instances where the world didn't get involved (on the scale that it is with Russia) is not a reason NOT to do so now. If anything we need to grasp onto these instances/situations where the world ACTUALLY takes notice (unlike with China), and let the righteous outcry fly.


...or to put it a slightly different way: "if you're not equally furious about everything, you're not entitled to be furious about any one thing" is a circularly flawed position.


Not to mention that expecting more from Russia than from Saudi Arabia Light is a pretty rational position to take. I expect Iraq to go execute gays. I'd be appalled if France made a law restricting gay rights.


If the difference in opinion of what should be expected in terms of human rights between Qatar and Russia is that different (and the practices are most certainly different - though not the greater difference between Iraq and France), then why was there not more commentary in both media, and on these boards in particular, about somewhere like that being awarded the World Cup to begin with? If I recall things correctly, this was barely touched on in the media and the comments on these boards were along the corruption line. If the Olympics are awarded to Iraq should we not object due to their human rights record?
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#126 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:08 AM

View PostKanese S, on 13 February 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

View PostGothos, on 12 February 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

thought bisexual already covered that?

and I'm from that poor strip of land shoveled between Germany and Russia, Poland.


Some people may feel that "bisexual" doesn't quite cover their specific sexuality, or might have issues with the gender binary.


oh bloody hell. to say that this term is a bit pointless is an excercise in understatement.
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#127 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:16 PM

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#128 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:16 PM

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 14 February 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

I was not making an argument that people should not object, and even said so.


No, but the thrust of your cynicism was that "because A, I can't find it in me to be bothered by B" or that nothing should/will come of such a notion/attention.

I think that's defeatist, and were that the case then nothing would ever change anywhere in all of time.
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#129 User is offline   cerveza_fiesta 

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:51 PM

View PostGothos, on 14 February 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

View PostKanese S, on 13 February 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

View PostGothos, on 12 February 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

thought bisexual already covered that?

and I'm from that poor strip of land shoveled between Germany and Russia, Poland.


Some people may feel that "bisexual" doesn't quite cover their specific sexuality, or might have issues with the gender binary.


oh bloody hell. to say that this term is a bit pointless is an excercise in understatement.


Not sure that comment deserved neg-rep, better to have added some further explanation (at least as I undertand things) .

the LGBT and its derivative acronyms (LGBTQ, LGBTTQ, etc...) are meant to *include and respect* all the groups that don't identify with the four major categories of L, G, B or T. The whole LGBT movement stands for inclusion, equality and mutual respect, so it makes perfect sense in my mind why there might be any number of extra letters added to the acronym as the situation requires. LGBT would be hypocritical if it didn't practice what it preaches, right?

I liken it to my earlier comment about covering "the gay angle" in Canadian media. As a straight person I underestimated its importance of the coverage and categorized it as a distraction. To a member of the LGBT community (as Blend pointed out), that degree of coverage is a HUGE deal and shows just how far we've come that our national media considers it front-page above-the-fold material. Much the same with the "Questioning" or "queer" person that doesn't identify with LGBT categories. To the outsider the distinction is trivial, to the individual in question, acceptance and recognition of the "Q" category makes a world of difference.

This post has been edited by cerveza_fiesta: 16 February 2014 - 05:01 PM

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#130 User is offline   Tapper 

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:43 AM

With regard to this not being an issue during the award of the Olympics: the laws were recent-ish even if the Russian sentiment wasn't, partly due to the cosy relation between the Orthodox patriarchy and the state. As for how it came to be...

Firstly, let's not forget that a lot of the representatives in the IOC (especially those from such enlightened backgrounds as, say, salafism or African catholics who take the Bible very literally) will have the personal conviction that LBTGs are indeed abberations and won't take an anti-LBTG position just because we in the West do so, Olympic vows of equality or not.

Secondly, even in countries where there is an outrage, the community is rather divided. I'd say the more politically conscious part of society is pro-boycot, or at the least, sending no state officials. Others, in this case represented by sports-heavy newspapers, doesn't care one fig and want entertainment and glory, and they have two excuses: "what do the Russians care about what we think?" and "let's prove the Russians that (our) LBTGs can be excellent athletes by winning lots of metal". Then there's a large community (mostly elderly/practicing faithful and lower educated males in the 15-35 age bracket) who are basically closet homophobics and more or less don't care as a result.

I agree politicians should have stayed away, especially the primary figureheads. Sadly, in a spectacularly stupid decision, we sent our King and Queen (he used to be an IOC member) because he's a sports fan "and it means so much to our athletes to have royal backing", as well as the prime minister (who was promptly photographed drinking a beer with Putin).

Thirdly, what about the sporters themselves? It's not clearcut, there, either. I think some might have stayed at home (but don't know examples), others, as distasteful as they might find the laws, still prefer their sporting success over making a political statement. As sour as it may be, staying home wins you two days of attention, but a gold medal seals your future. Let's not forget that for many, this is two weeks of distasteful circumstances and ducking your head when asked political questions. Then you can go back to your more civilized society and won't face the problem again.

Even if you're not that cynical, there's still the fact that the Olympics are for many the biggest venue ever and a career will span at most two Olympiades. A lot of sporters who aren't LBTGs will also say "I'm leaving politics to the politicians", who will promptly state that it's the individual sporter's choice.

As an example: the Dutch have a lesbian medal winner, as does Austria (the Austrian lady is married to her partner, too, so one might say she's even "registered" her sexual orientation). Neither is going to be making political statements, either. Maybe when they come back, I don't know.

TL;DNR:
It's clear that Russian laws are contrary to the Rights of Men, are discriminatory and are inviting violence against LBTGQs.
It's clear that the one responsible for this issue even existing is the IOC by awarding it to Russia and they shouldn't have (nor should FIFA have awarded the WCs to Qatar).

It's also clear that the IOC, sponsors, media companies and large parts of the viewing audiences don't give a (large enough) fuck or do not associate the Olympics with LBTGQ rights or think they can get away with it. Let's not forget, pop star X can go and perform on a salafist sheikhs birthday party who actually ordered executions and they get away with it, too, with roughly no public outrage at all, and they're easily identifiable and boycot-able.

As such, I find it really hard to take a good/bad decision on boycotting the Olympics, especially when neither politicians nor sporters can make up their mind and pass the ball back and forth between them, sticking to symbolism at most.
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#131 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:56 PM

View PostTapper, on 17 February 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:



It's also clear that the IOC, sponsors, media companies and large parts of the viewing audiences don't give a (large enough) fuck or do not associate the Olympics with LBTGQ rights or think they can get away with it.



What can the IOC do exactly though? They awarded these olympics to russia long before the laws were enacted.

For the record, I found Beijing to be a far more objectionable venue. So yeah, I guess IOC not giving a fuck is probably about right.
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#132 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:18 PM

View PostShinrei, on 20 February 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

View PostTapper, on 17 February 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:



It's also clear that the IOC, sponsors, media companies and large parts of the viewing audiences don't give a (large enough) fuck or do not associate the Olympics with LBTGQ rights or think they can get away with it.



What can the IOC do exactly though? They awarded these olympics to russia long before the laws were enacted.

For the record, I found Beijing to be a far more objectionable venue. So yeah, I guess IOC not giving a fuck is probably about right.


Though the laws themselves were not in place when Russia was awarded the Olympics, they were definitely under discussion - and the gay propaganda laws are far from being the only issue at hand here, when it comes to LGBT rights in Russia. They're just the most visible.

From Wikipedia:

In 2002, Gennady Raikov, who led a conservative pro-government group in the Russian Duma, suggested outlawing homosexual acts. His proposal failed to generate enough votes but the suggestion generated public support from many conservative religious leaders and medical doctors.[2]

In 2003, a new statute about military and medical expertise was adopted (1 July 2003); it contained «a clause of "deviations of gender identification and sexual preferences" among the reasons of disability for military service <...> this clause irritated the proponents of having equal rights for people of different sexual orientation <...> [while] another clause said that different sexual orientation should not be considered a deviation.»[27] Finally, Valery Kulikov, the Major-General of the Medical Service, announced:

"The new statute about military and medical expertise from 1 July 2003 does not forbid people of non-standard sexual orientation from serving in the military.... The issue of person's homosexuality is not medical. There is no such diagnosis as homosexuality in medicine. There is no such illness in the classification of World Health Organization. The new statute about military and medical expertise follows international law practice. Therefore the reasons for evaluating the ability to serve for homosexuals are the same: physical and psychic health.[27]"

"People of non-standard sexual orientation can have problems when being in the Army, and therefore should not reveal their sexual preferences, Valery Kulikov said. "Other soldiers are not going to like that, they can be beaten."»[27]

In May 2005, LGBT Human Rights Project Gayrussia.ru was founded by Nikolai Alekseev to fight discriminations on the basis of sexual orientation and raise awareness of LGBT issues in Russia. In July 2005, Nikolai Alekseev launched the Moscow Pride initiative which has been organized every year since May 2006. As of July 2009, LGBT Human Rights Project Gayrussia.ru is a transnational organization promoting LGBT Rights in Russia and Belarus.

In 2006, Grand Mufti Talgat Tadzhuddin was quoted as saying about Moscow Pride marchers, "If they come out on to the streets anyway they should be flogged. Any normal person would do that – Muslims and Orthodox Christians alike".[28] Similar comments were made by one of Russia's Chief Rabbis, Berl Lazar, who joined Tadzhuddin in condemning the march, saying that it "would be a blow for morality".[29]

Russian LGBT network was founded in May 2006. As of July 2009, this was the first and only interregional LGBT organization in Russia.

In late April and early May 2006, protesters blockaded some popular gay clubs in Moscow. After initial complaints that police had failed to intervene, later blockade attempts were met with arrests.[30]

In May 2006, a gay rights forum was held in Moscow. An accompanying march was banned by the mayor in a decision upheld by the courts. Some activists, head of them Nikolai Alekseev tried to march despite the ban and attempted to lay flowers at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. This march is known as the first Moscow Pride. This act and the presence of non-Russian activists aroused a nationalist reaction in addition to a religious condemnation of homosexuality, leading to the presence of both neo-Nazi groups and Orthodox protesters threatening the gay activists. Anti-march protesters beat the marchers, and about 50 marchers and 20 protesters were arrested when riot police moved in to break up the conflict.[31] The documentary Moscow Pride '06 features the events that took place from 25 to 27 May 2006 in Moscow. It contains a vivid testimony of the first attempt to stage a gay pride march in Russia as well as the festival organized around it."

"With regards to what the heads of regions say, I normally try not to comment. I don't think it is my business. My relation to gay parades and sexual minorities in general is simple – it is connected with my official duties and the fact that one of the country's main problems is demographic. But I respect and will continue to respect personal freedom in all its forms, in all its manifestations."

President Vladimir Putin, when quizzed on the ban of the Moscow Pride Parade, 1 February 2007.[32][33]

On 27 May 2007, the Moscow Pride was banned again by the former Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov, who had earlier branded it as "satanic",[34] was held in Moscow again and for the second year running degenerated into violent clashes with anti-gay protestors. For the second time police failed to protect gay rights activists. Italian MP Marco Cappato was kicked by an anti-gay activist and then detained when he demanded police protection. British gay rights veteran Peter Tatchell and Russian gay leader Nikolai Alekseev were detained as well.[35][36] The march is documented in the 2008 film East/West - Sex & Politics.[37]

On 1 June 2008, Moscow Pride again attempted to hold a gay parade. Some 13 Orthodox opposers were held by police for violent actions against protesters.



Those are all things that happened before July 2007 when the IOC voted for Russia to host the Olympics...

But what's perhaps more troubling is what happened in the following couple of years:

On February 2009, at the final press conference in Moscow the Russian LGBT Network and the Moscow Helsinki Group published a paper titled «The situation for lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgendered people in Russian Federation».[38][39] This is the first complex study of the legal situation of LGBT people in the history of Russia. The 100-page paper contains the analysis of relevant Russian laws and also assembles and generalizes specific instances of infringement of rights and discrimination.

Nikolai Alekseev at the Slavic Pride festival on 16 May 2009. Two anti-riot police stopped Nikolai Alekseev and his partner, a transgender activist from Belarus.
On 8 May 2009, Russian Duma rejected a bill criminalizing gay "propaganda" in Russia (with only 90 votes in favor against 226 minimum required). This bill was initiated in 2007 by a Fair Russia party member and suggested depriving those who "openly demonstrated a homosexual way of life and a homosexual orientation" of the right to hold posts in educational establishments or in the army for a term from 2 to 5 years.[40] According to Interfax, the parliamentarians decided that gay "propaganda" was not dangerous for society and thus could not be punished under the criminal code.[41] Nikolai Alekseev, Chief organizer of the Moscow Pride, commented that with parliament rejecting this bill, it is likely that the Constitutional Court of Russia follows their request to cancel a similar law that is in force in the Ryazan Region.[40]

On 16 May 2009, the Moscow Pride timed to coincide with Moscow's hosting of the 2009 Eurovision song contest finals was broken up by police, with all 30 participants – including British human rights activist Peter Tatchell – arrested.[42][43]

On 17 May 2009, for the International Day Against Homophobia Russian LGBT network organized the «Rainbow flash mob» in Saint Petersburg; this event brought together from 100 to 250 people by various estimations, and the organizers consider it to be the most large-scale action in the whole history of Russia dedicated to the problem of LGBT rights.[44][45][46][47][48] Also the action in smaller scales has passed in more than 30 cities of Russia.




Anyway, what's important to note from the above is that the Fair Russia party member introduced the Gay Propaganda law in 2007. This isn't something new, and institutionalized homophobia in Russia is far from something new.

You're right, what was happening in Beijing was also bad. Unfortunately, I was less informed back then, and frankly gave less of a damn. But using the fact that we or the IOC ignored gross human rights violations in the past as an excuse for ignoring them now is not acceptable. Apathy does not drive change.
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#133 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:23 PM

View PostBlend, on 20 February 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

On 8 May 2009, Russian Duma rejected a bill criminalizing gay "propaganda" in Russia (with only 90 votes in favor against 226 minimum required). This bill was initiated in 2007 by a Fair Russia party member and suggested depriving those who "openly demonstrated a homosexual way of life and a homosexual orientation" of the right to hold posts in educational establishments or in the army for a term from 2 to 5 years.[40] According to Interfax, the parliamentarians decided that gay "propaganda" was not dangerous for society and thus could not be punished under the criminal code.[41] Nikolai Alekseev, Chief organizer of the Moscow Pride, commented that with parliament rejecting this bill, it is likely that the Constitutional Court of Russia follows their request to cancel a similar law that is in force in the Ryazan Region.[40]


The thing that gets me, is that in 2009 the propaganda law was struck down by a large majority, but when it was enacted in June 2013, it was voted in unanimously by the Duma. How quickly things can change when you need/want the support of the Orthodox Church.
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#134 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:22 PM

I have to admit, the cynic in me says the Olympics happening in Russia is actually a good thing for the LGBT movement. It has taken what would likely have been a once run story of another human-rights violating law in a backwards country that would have raised very little awareness outside of the LGBT community. The Olympics have vaulted the issue to a higher prominence in international consciousness, which can only be a good thing. It helps that LGBT rights are cause-du-jour recently (with marriage laws in the US etc). It feels like there is far less apathy towards the Russia LGBT-issue than their was towards China's human rights abuses. My guess is that it is because there were not any particular domestic issues in international communities (Europe/N.America) directly related.
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#135 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:17 PM

How does Putin do it? That triple lutz was FLAWLESS. The vodka bottle and sabre didn't mess him up at all!
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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:11 PM

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet, but Russia have been awarded the FIFA World Cup in 2018. Is this going to rear its ugly head again? You can bet anything you like that the football fans (the ones who travel there anyway) won't give two hoots about Russian gay policies. You can also guarantee that the countries who make it through to the competition won't boycott it then either. Sorry if this is a slight thread derailment...
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#137 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 04:53 PM

http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-30735673

So Russia seems to be growing more intolerant
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#138 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 05:52 PM

I saw that that article this morning and I had to blink my eyes to make sure that's what the headline read and I'm not going mad.

WTF.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora

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#139 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 09:31 PM

View PostCause, on 09 January 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-30735673

So Russia seems to be growing more intolerant


It's Russia trying to distract from the fact that their economy is collapsing. Blame the gays! They are the cause of it!
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