[Cause]

Well I guess we don't have to worry, by the sounds of things soon the Gays in Russia will have their own parks benches, drinking fountains and toilets so they wont have to associate with these bigots!

Without meaning to sound too dramatic I always ask myself how a society gets to the point where racism and bigotry gets to the point when people start denying their fellow man human rights and even life but now I see I overestimated the process. It just needs to happen one slow step a time.

The situation is starting to sound very worrying to my ears.

[Blend]

Because it isn't bad enough that we're hosting the Olympics in Russia, let's be like the Russians and punish the gays for being gay too!

International Olympic Committee May Join Russia in Punishing Gay Athletes

[HoosierDaddy]

While normally I would be all for a boycott, what it really ends up doing is hurting the athletes. I remember a program HBO had on the effect the 80 (I think) boycott had. These people train for years and maybe have only one Olympic window in which to win a medal. It's not like most olympic sports are highly paid athletes as well, so I don't know. Just don't want to spite the athletes to make a political point.

On the other hand, those commie bastards have it coming because of Red Dawn.

Wolverines!

[Blend]

HoosierDaddy, on 13 August 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

While normally I would be all for a boycott, what it really ends up doing is hurting the athletes. I remember a program HBO had on the effect the 80 (I think) boycott had. These people train for years and maybe have only one Olympic window in which to win a medal. It's not like most olympic sports are highly paid athletes as well, so I don't know. Just don't want to spite the athletes to make a political point.

On the other hand, those commie bastards have it coming because of Red Dawn.

Wolverines!

So what? We ignore the rise of the neo-nazi regime in Russia just so these people can play some sports? Sports to the detriment of a human being's right to live a peaceful life? To exist?

[Studlock]

Blend, on 14 August 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 13 August 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

While normally I would be all for a boycott, what it really ends up doing is hurting the athletes. I remember a program HBO had on the effect the 80 (I think) boycott had. These people train for years and maybe have only one Olympic window in which to win a medal. It's not like most olympic sports are highly paid athletes as well, so I don't know. Just don't want to spite the athletes to make a political point.

On the other hand, those commie bastards have it coming because of Red Dawn.

Wolverines!

So what? We ignore the rise of the neo-nazi regime in Russia just so these people can play some sports? Sports to the detriment of a human being's right to live a peaceful life? To exist?

I was going to say, basically you're saying that the rights of athletes to 'sports' is more important than the rights of human beings who happen to be athletes (which will be punished by said rules) to be comfortable in their own skin without being discriminated against because they were born different. It's not a political point, it's a fucking humanist one.

And that's not to say the boycott countries can't have a 'anti-olympic' games or some shit. Or hell have their own inter-national games and still reward the athletes, gay ones, cisgender ones, every single one for all they care. I rarely agree with the Canadian Gov't because of my own shit but I can't possibly see how they can't boycott this and come out of it without out looking like worlds biggest hypocrites (the USA less so).

[Obdigore]

Blend, on 14 August 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 13 August 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

While normally I would be all for a boycott, what it really ends up doing is hurting the athletes. I remember a program HBO had on the effect the 80 (I think) boycott had. These people train for years and maybe have only one Olympic window in which to win a medal. It's not like most olympic sports are highly paid athletes as well, so I don't know. Just don't want to spite the athletes to make a political point.

On the other hand, those commie bastards have it coming because of Red Dawn.

Wolverines!

So what? We ignore the rise of the neo-nazi regime in Russia just so these people can play some sports? Sports to the detriment of a human being's right to live a peaceful life? To exist?

You sure you have your history correct there? Russia has had systematic purges of its population before, and most of the time they had little to nothing to do with the Nazis. But I guess if we are going to Godwin a thread, the Discussion board is the place to do it?

[Silencer]

Obdigore, on 14 August 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Blend, on 14 August 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 13 August 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

While normally I would be all for a boycott, what it really ends up doing is hurting the athletes. I remember a program HBO had on the effect the 80 (I think) boycott had. These people train for years and maybe have only one Olympic window in which to win a medal. It's not like most olympic sports are highly paid athletes as well, so I don't know. Just don't want to spite the athletes to make a political point.

On the other hand, those commie bastards have it coming because of Red Dawn.

Wolverines!

So what? We ignore the rise of the neo-nazi regime in Russia just so these people can play some sports? Sports to the detriment of a human being's right to live a peaceful life? To exist?

You sure you have your history correct there? Russia has had systematic purges of its population before, and most of the time they had little to nothing to do with the Nazis. But I guess if we are going to Godwin a thread, the Discussion board is the place to do it?

Do we need a "Godwin'd" emote? XD

Though I think Blend's overall point stands, inaccurate/woefully so appellation of the phrase "neo-Nazi" aside. (Really, I sometimes think that -Nazi, or neo-Nazi in particular, has become a catch-all for "bad people"/hate groups, these days...*sigh*)

[Morgoth]

Well, in this case it is well established that Neo-Nazi groups actively commit violence against suspected gay men in Russia and that the state chose not to interfere.

It's practical to avoid referring to Nazi Germany in cases where they are not relevant as a topic, of that I agree. However, one should perhaps aim for more knowledge before one chose to dismiss another poster's point with a common platitude.

[Silencer]

Morgoth, on 14 August 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Well, in this case it is well established that Neo-Nazi groups actively commit violence against suspected gay men in Russia and that the state chose not to interfere.

It's practical to avoid referring to Nazi Germany in cases where they are not relevant as a topic, of that I agree. However, one should perhaps aim for more knowledge before one chose to dismiss another poster's point with a common platitude.

I don't think that quite equates to calling the State a "neo-Nazi regime", though, does it? While they may endorse (implicitly or otherwise) the specific action of these groups, that doesn't mean that they broadly align with them in any sense, political or otherwise, aside from that common ground/turning a blind eye.

Wouldn't it be like calling a left-wing government a right-wing party because they have one policy in common? (Or more?)

[Mentalist]

Blend, on 14 August 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 13 August 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

While normally I would be all for a boycott, what it really ends up doing is hurting the athletes. I remember a program HBO had on the effect the 80 (I think) boycott had. These people train for years and maybe have only one Olympic window in which to win a medal. It's not like most olympic sports are highly paid athletes as well, so I don't know. Just don't want to spite the athletes to make a political point.

On the other hand, those commie bastards have it coming because of Red Dawn.

Wolverines!

So what? We ignore the rise of the neo-nazi regime in Russia just so these people can play some sports? Sports to the detriment of a human being's right to live a peaceful life? To exist?

It's been steadily ignored for the past, what? 15 years? I doubt that'll change anytime soon.
I'm not here to defend Russia's regime, but I will say this: if you are trying to apply "traditional", Western "civilization values", you are wasting your time. Russia's in the midst of a prolonged demographic crisis. Eastern part's being actively populated by Chinese immigrants, while Western Russia's equally actively being occupied by Central Asians (cities) as well as the various Caucass peoples (both cities and country). Chechens may have lost the war, but htey got the consolation prize of becoming top dogs in Russia's organised crime. This hasn't happened in a day, it's been a long-term process ignored by the state. Hell, at this point the population of Moscow is smth like 30% Muslim, if not more.

And unlike Western states, (like Canada), the idea of "multiculturalism" and tolerance isn't exactly a viable one. Why? because people are poor and starving. Human rights and universal values are all well and good, but no one gives a damn when the population struggles to survive the next day. Those types of circumstances encourage "us vs them", and all outsiders become intolerable.

It's all well and good to rage at the unfairness of it all. And I do feel for all those these laws will opress. But the words "international outrage" are really meaningless in this case. All you'll do is reinforce Russia's people's antagonism towards the West and their "liberal ideas".

[Morgoth]

Silencer, on 14 August 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 14 August 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Well, in this case it is well established that Neo-Nazi groups actively commit violence against suspected gay men in Russia and that the state chose not to interfere.

It's practical to avoid referring to Nazi Germany in cases where they are not relevant as a topic, of that I agree. However, one should perhaps aim for more knowledge before one chose to dismiss another poster's point with a common platitude.

I don't think that quite equates to calling the State a "neo-Nazi regime", though, does it? While they may endorse (implicitly or otherwise) the specific action of these groups, that doesn't mean that they broadly align with them in any sense, political or otherwise, aside from that common ground/turning a blind eye.

Wouldn't it be like calling a left-wing government a right-wing party because they have one policy in common? (Or more?)

I would personally disagree that the Russian state is a neo-nazi state, but I would do so on the merits of the argument rather than going on a tangent about goodwin and the overuse of neo-nazi as a term.

After all, though I wouldn't call them nazis, there are several valid comparisons one can make between Nazi Germany and Putin's Russia.

I don't know, I probably overreacted. But it seemed rather respectless to simply hand wave away Blend's claim as a result of Goodwins law and an overuse of the term neo-nazi.

[Blend]

I was referencing the known fact that neo-nazi groups have been marauding through Russia committing hate crimes without any sort of law keeping them in check when I made reference to neo-nazi regime. You're right, I generalized where I shouldn't have, but let's think about this a little.

This here is an excellent example article about the parallels between Russia's current regime and the German Nazi regime:

Why We Participated in the 1936 Nazi Games

What Russia is doing is not exactly like what Germany did in that time, but I agree with the author of that article. It might as well be.

[Silencer]

Morgoth, on 14 August 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Silencer, on 14 August 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 14 August 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Well, in this case it is well established that Neo-Nazi groups actively commit violence against suspected gay men in Russia and that the state chose not to interfere.

It's practical to avoid referring to Nazi Germany in cases where they are not relevant as a topic, of that I agree. However, one should perhaps aim for more knowledge before one chose to dismiss another poster's point with a common platitude.

I don't think that quite equates to calling the State a "neo-Nazi regime", though, does it? While they may endorse (implicitly or otherwise) the specific action of these groups, that doesn't mean that they broadly align with them in any sense, political or otherwise, aside from that common ground/turning a blind eye.

Wouldn't it be like calling a left-wing government a right-wing party because they have one policy in common? (Or more?)

I would personally disagree that the Russian state is a neo-nazi state, but I would do so on the merits of the argument rather than going on a tangent about goodwin and the overuse of neo-nazi as a term.

After all, though I wouldn't call them nazis, there are several valid comparisons one can make between Nazi Germany and Putin's Russia.

I don't know, I probably overreacted. But it seemed rather respectless to simply hand wave away Blend's claim as a result of Goodwins law and an overuse of the term neo-nazi.

Well, I can't speak for Obdi, but I personally stated that the point stood on its own merit, regardless of the misnomer.

[Terez]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 08 August 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Ack, the whole thing is just asinine and goes against the camaraderie of sport that the Greeks began so many years ago.

http://www.cracked.c...zations_p2.html

Am I the only one who saw QT's post and thought of the fine tradition of pederasty?

Also, to think! This used to be normal in Russia.

This post has been edited by Terez: 14 August 2013 - 04:29 PM

[QuickTidal]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 08 August 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Ack, the whole thing is just asinine and goes against the camaraderie of sport that the Greeks began so many years ago.

http://www.cracked.c...zations_p2.html

The MODERN Games. AKA 1896 in Athens.

Not the ancient ones.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 14 August 2013 - 07:35 PM

[Obdigore]

Morgoth, on 14 August 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Silencer, on 14 August 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 14 August 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Well, in this case it is well established that Neo-Nazi groups actively commit violence against suspected gay men in Russia and that the state chose not to interfere.

It's practical to avoid referring to Nazi Germany in cases where they are not relevant as a topic, of that I agree. However, one should perhaps aim for more knowledge before one chose to dismiss another poster's point with a common platitude.

I don't think that quite equates to calling the State a "neo-Nazi regime", though, does it? While they may endorse (implicitly or otherwise) the specific action of these groups, that doesn't mean that they broadly align with them in any sense, political or otherwise, aside from that common ground/turning a blind eye.

Wouldn't it be like calling a left-wing government a right-wing party because they have one policy in common? (Or more?)

I would personally disagree that the Russian state is a neo-nazi state, but I would do so on the merits of the argument rather than going on a tangent about goodwin and the overuse of neo-nazi as a term.

After all, though I wouldn't call them nazis, there are several valid comparisons one can make between Nazi Germany and Putin's Russia.

I don't know, I probably overreacted. But it seemed rather respectless to simply hand wave away Blend's claim as a result of Goodwins law and an overuse of the term neo-nazi.

I wasn't handwaving Blends claim that the Russian Government is putting on quite a douchetastic display and allowing shit that shouldn't be allowed. I was saying there is no fucking reason to talk about the Nazis or Nazi Germany because Russia has its very own history of doing shit like this, or looking the other way on shit like this.

[Illuyankas]

All neo-Nazis are fascist, but not all fascists are neo-Nazi.

[Cause]

I don't know, I think the Nazi comparison is apt because if nothing else it seems to me unless something drastic is done things will only go down hill. They have not made being Gay illegal, they are not actively hunting them down but any gay act (even holing hands) has become illegal so the law in effect has made being gay illegal in public and Gays into 2nd class citizens. We see some hate groups already attacking them, how long before Russia escalate their rhetoric? How long before being gay in private becomes illegal as well.

Also what is the divide? If you use the internet to meet other gays I would argue that is a private thing but as this was the very method a neo-nazi did group to find, kidnap and torture a few gay men I would say their is already a problem in this regards. Obviously a very vocal and larger part of Russian society than we would like to think wants Gay people gone. How far will they go to see it done? I would say too far already.

[D'iversify]

Mentalist, on 14 August 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Blend, on 14 August 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 13 August 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

While normally I would be all for a boycott, what it really ends up doing is hurting the athletes. I remember a program HBO had on the effect the 80 (I think) boycott had. These people train for years and maybe have only one Olympic window in which to win a medal. It's not like most olympic sports are highly paid athletes as well, so I don't know. Just don't want to spite the athletes to make a political point.

On the other hand, those commie bastards have it coming because of Red Dawn.

Wolverines!

So what? We ignore the rise of the neo-nazi regime in Russia just so these people can play some sports? Sports to the detriment of a human being's right to live a peaceful life? To exist?

It's been steadily ignored for the past, what? 15 years? I doubt that'll change anytime soon.
I'm not here to defend Russia's regime, but I will say this: if you are trying to apply "traditional", Western "civilization values", you are wasting your time. Russia's in the midst of a prolonged demographic crisis. Eastern part's being actively populated by Chinese immigrants, while Western Russia's equally actively being occupied by Central Asians (cities) as well as the various Caucass peoples (both cities and country). Chechens may have lost the war, but htey got the consolation prize of becoming top dogs in Russia's organised crime. This hasn't happened in a day, it's been a long-term process ignored by the state. Hell, at this point the population of Moscow is smth like 30% Muslim, if not more.

And unlike Western states, (like Canada), the idea of "multiculturalism" and tolerance isn't exactly a viable one. Why? because people are poor and starving. Human rights and universal values are all well and good, but no one gives a damn when the population struggles to survive the next day. Those types of circumstances encourage "us vs them", and all outsiders become intolerable.

It's all well and good to rage at the unfairness of it all. And I do feel for all those these laws will opress. But the words "international outrage" are really meaningless in this case. All you'll do is reinforce Russia's people's antagonism towards the West and their "liberal ideas".

I understand the circumstances under which these laws and acts are being committed, but not only do they not excuse these people for being scum but this kind of presentation also ignores the fact that this whole persecution campaign, and similarly state complicity in the neo-Nazi persecution of Central Asian immigrants in European Russia's cities, is all part of a façade, playing to the angry and hateful to distract them form the fact that the vast majority of Russia's problems today have either been caused or exacerbated by the corruption, avarice and incompetence of the post-Soviet political elite. After all, the other reason Sochi's making the news is that it is likely to be the most expensive Olympics in history, at $50 billion plus ($10 billion more than the Beijing Summer Games), and that much of this huge cost is likely down to corruption. The persecution of gays and other minorities in Russia is thus not just cruel but cynical too, for it is a tool to distract the dangerous elements of Russian society away from the real cause of its problems.

[Gnaw]

Cause, on 13 August 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Well I guess we don't have to worry, by the sounds of things soon the Gays in Russia will have their own parks benches, drinking fountains and toilets so they wont have to associate with these bigots!

Without meaning to sound too dramatic I always ask myself how a society gets to the point where racism and bigotry gets to the point when people start denying their fellow man human rights and even life but now I see I overestimated the process. It just needs to happen one slow step a time.

The situation is starting to sound very worrying to my ears.

Silencer, on 14 August 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

While they may endorse (implicitly or otherwise) the specific action of these groups, that doesn't mean that they broadly align with them in any sense, political or otherwise, aside from that common ground/turning a blind eye.

Wouldn't it be like calling a left-wing government a right-wing party because they have one policy in common? (Or more?)

D, on 15 August 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 14 August 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Blend, on 14 August 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

So what? We ignore the rise of the neo-nazi regime in Russia just so these people can play some sports? Sports to the detriment of a human being's right to live a peaceful life? To exist?

It's been steadily ignored for the past, what? 15 years? I doubt that'll change anytime soon.


Why? because people are poor and starving. Human rights and universal values are all well and good, but no one gives a damn when the population struggles to survive the next day. Those types of circumstances encourage "us vs them", and all outsiders become intolerable.

It's all well and good to rage at the unfairness of it all. And I do feel for all those these laws will opress. But the words "international outrage" are really meaningless in this case. All you'll do is reinforce Russia's people's antagonism towards the West and their "liberal ideas".

playing to the angry and hateful to distract them form the fact that the vast majority of Russia's problems today have either been caused or exacerbated by the corruption, avarice and incompetence of the post-Soviet political elite.

The persecution of gays and other minorities in Russia is thus not just cruel but cynical too, for it is a tool to distract the dangerous elements of Russian society away from the real cause of its problems.

I snipped your posts down to what I see as the common element. The 'other'.

Imnso, Cause is damned right to be worried. This is the (near) end result of an orchestrated, deliberate and categorical destruction of a cohesive society. Somebody wants to return to the good old days of open absolute totalitarianism. Putin may or may not be the somebody but he's KGB to the core and has no problem with being the visible front.

The opposition wealthy have been subdued or co-opted. The journalists have been near silenced. The church is on board. The 'pussy riot' thing may have shown that Russian women won't be returned to third class, but it also told them that they had damn well as a category be quiet and go along.

What is needed is a 'enemy within' with 'international elements'. The 'enemy' needs to be small but non centralized; "somebody you know could be one of them" adds to the urgency of the danger. They need to be powerless. They need to be fractured. They need to be marginalized members in other countries as well to soften and split the international reactions and to draw powerful voices of support for the regime. (Anyone heard an evangelical speak out against what is occuring?) The LGBT community may not be the perfect candidate, but it is a more than suitable one for the purpose and better than most. And the Olympics is the perfect stage. The hue and outcry is essential to making the group a target of an internal reactionary mass movement. It joins the diverse elements together to 'defend' their nation. That is not to say that we shouldn't be making the hue and cry. But it is important to know that doing so can be just as damaging as not saying anything. There's no such thing as bad publicity.

From what little I've seen, the silence from the military is deafening; not because I think they're paragons of open societies but because they aren't saying anything. I think that means they're seeing a very volatile situation and watching to see if it simmers, boils, or explodes. Genocidal violence is already occuring as we know but it has yet to reach the level that I believe is inevitable. Explosive would be better in the long run but I cannot see Putin wanting it or the military allowing it. And theirs are the only opinions that matter at that point.

I fear the Russians are in for a long and bitter winter. Several years of it.

Edit: a couple of grammar and spelling errors.

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 16 August 2013 - 03:14 AM