[Maester]

I finished OST a few months ago, and am currently re-reading the series.... One of the most frustrating things for me as a reader was the lack of an explanation on the Seguluh leaders. I'm in the middle of reading MOI (again) and K'rul is talking to Envy about the Seguluh First sending Mok and his punitive army. In OST there is no first. My questions are these: When did the First die? ALSO, I got the feeling that the seguluh second had been second for a while..., And there was no mention of the old second (who is currently running amok as the Knight of Death), what is the timeline for the change in leaders? What is the unmarked mask found in Moon's Spawn? I've been frustrated by this for months.

[nacht]

This is the quote from MoI

Quote

'Constraint? Tell me, K'rul, did you think the Seguleh First would send someone as highly ranked as the Third to lead his punitive army?'

Admittedly, no. For this task, of splitting the Seer's forces into two fronts, I had expected perhaps three or four hundred Eleventh Level initiates. Sufficient to inconvenience the Seer enough to draw an army or two away from the approaching Malazans. Yet, with the Second missing, and with Mok's growing prowess, no doubt the First had his reasons.

At the point, Mok was sent, Jan opposed it. Which means he was not the "highest" ranked, because Mok (the "third") would have followed his orders. So the orders came from the "First" or the previous "Second"

Quote

Jan had been reaching for a pinch of meat, but stilled. ‘You know I am against such … adventurism. I opposed the expedition of punishment against the Pannions. What did that gain us? Mok’s skills wasted against rabble and unworthy amateurs.’

The Seguleh from the "Second" onwards basically follow orders.
The last "First" who is referred to as "ancient" basically left the postion open, potentially creating an opening to break away from tradition of just following orders. The previous "Second" at some point vacated the position enabling Jan to take that spot.

Quote

But with the death of the last ancient to achieve First, it was Third that was now so regarded.

Quote

Jan's breath caught momentarily. 'You covet the First?'
'It is time. If you will not lead, then stand aside for one who will.'
So that is what they are whispering in the dormitories … How they have all forgotten. One does not claim First. It cannot be taken. It can only be given. And I – even I – was not judged worthy.

Quote

The fulfilment of the long-held dream of his people? It seemed unreal that this should be achieved, now, in his lifetime. The last First had never spoken of it, had always deflected Jan's probes. It was this uncharacteristic reluctance that troubled him now as he jogged up the Way of Justice. Such guardedness had all been too much for one Second, the one whose name had been stricken. Slaves to tradition, he had denounced them, as he threw away his sword.

Quote

The golden Father? First guide me! Was this the source of your silence? Ancestors forgive me … which do I choose? The knee or the blade? Which will it be? All now are watching, waiting upon me, the Second, to show the way. And yet … there it is. For am I not Second? And did not the last First ever instruct – the Second has but one task.

The Second follows.

The tyrant was represented by the golden mask, the "First" by a cracked wooden mask.

Quote

And what could Jan do but bow when commanded by his First? For the gold mask was the legendary progenitor, the Father of them all. Attack the Moranth? Bring them low? An entire people? Was this what we were forged to accomplish? Our noble purpose? And you in your cracked wooden mask who told me so little. Was this the burden you sought to spare me? Well do I understand it now. No wonder we hide our faces. That burden is shame.

From OST quote below, it looks like Rake stole or acquired the unmarked mask. The mask is a symbolic representation of the obeisance of the Seguleh to the tyrant (golden mask) and Rake probably took it to give the Seguleh some "food for thought" (perhaps an invitation to come out of the island and rediscover the world)

Quote

'A piece of artwork stolen from my people long ago. It is a legacy of ours. We believe it to be somewhere within the Spawn, as it is our belief that its master, Blacksword, either took it, or acquired it. It is of little monetary value but important to our religion. A plain white mask. Of little value to any but us.'

Quote

The gathered stirred, masks shifting to the Eleventh at his side. 'Oru,' Jan went on, 'hold up the Mask of our Ancestors. The Pure One crafted by the First who led us on our exile …' Even as he repeated the traditional words of invocation a sudden new realization came to Jan and their meaning shifted, taking on an utterly new significance. His breath caught at the truth of this new formulation. Everything made sense now: his people's fate, their exile. It came to him that this must be what others describe as a religious awakening.

He took a great breath and continued, louder, his voice rough. ' … on our exile … which was in truth a deliverance. A flight from slavery and a flight from our shame. Crafted in the hope of an eventual redemption, a cleansing of our past.'

So the timeline potentially could be something like that.

The "First" is an "ancient" who knows the true burden of the Seguleh
"Blacksword" fights the Seguleh upto the 7th. He then leaves with the mask
The "Second" gives up the sword because he is sick of the closed thinking of the Seguleh
Jan is promoted to "Second"
The "First" asks "Mok(3rd)" to lead the expedition against the Pannions.
The "First" dies but refuses to give Jan that position.

This post has been edited by nacht: 08 July 2013 - 12:22 PM

[worry]

I agree with most of what you said, and your timeline, very good work. The one thing worth mentioning though is that the Second who throws down his sword and whose name is stricken is almost certainly the undead Seguleh 2nd, and that event probably took place well before Jan was around; he's simply become an example passed down in Seguleh ranked culture.

[tiam]

Indeed the 2nd that swore off the Seguleh and denounced the traditional values is likely the undead Second who when he meets Crokus makes note that the Seguleh are still taciturn and comes to the conclusion that 'the fever zeal still grips my kin' which is a quote from memory. So yes likely him.

A few things though

-Seguleh- In MOI the Second is considered missing, to which we all thought was the one that turned up in TBH at the time, and the inference is that Mok is sent by the First as he feared Moks growing prowess suggesting that the title of First could be taken by martial prowess and with Mok taking two of his brothers thus eliminating any potential family feud. This sits in with one of the more notorious quotes from MOI where Brood mentions the Seguleh First on the list of epic warriors. At this point the Seguleh are different from what we later see in OST I would guess. Its noted in OST that the Seguleh are fiercely isolationist with a the mere 20 that go with Oru being their biggest undertaking based solely on Orus vision of a priceless religious heirloom. However Krul and Envy throw around phrases like 400 Eleventh level initiates which does not gel with what we later see though is ofcourse possible as initiates are not Agatii though we have no concrete definition. Also the 1st in this instance is more of a religious high priest elder figure with the Second being the best true warrior.

-Timeline- Jan when he fights Enoch in the opening chapter makes a note that its been a year already suggesting that a year is in place between challenges of jumping rank rather than a constant free for all within Seguleh society. It is also shown that Jan could have refused that challenge as was his right given his social position. However with a Second missing in MOI and Jan being portrayed as the established Second in OST, who spoke against Moks expedition though possibly Jan was speaking as one of the Eldrii rather than Second though this seems unlikely given the stricture of Seguleh society though again possible given the family connection. In any case the timeline is not really plausible given the few months between MOI and OST.

Rake- It strikes me as odd that Rake had the mask but I dont think the Seguleh knew until Orus vision of it. Otherwise, given all the talk they had about Rake in MOI Moks priority would have been recovering the Mask rather than challenging him. As for when he got it id say someone gifted it to him or he got it from somewhere else. I dont think he looted a holy artifact from the Seguleh Isle as that doesnt sound like Rake.

As a general rule Nacht timeline is a good one but there are caveats

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 08 July 2013 - 09:53 PM

[nacht]

worry, on 08 July 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

I agree with most of what you said, and your timeline, very good work. The one thing worth mentioning though is that the Second who throws down his sword and whose name is stricken is almost certainly the undead Seguleh 2nd, and that event probably took place well before Jan was around; he's simply become an example passed down in Seguleh ranked culture.

Good point regarding the undead 2nd.
I think the fact that he has some bad blood with Skinner means that maybe Skinner killed him (though I dont think this is ever stated outright). If this is true, then the Seguleh 2nd timeframe would be bounded by the Crimson Gaurd timeframe of -200 years.

[nacht]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 08 July 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Indeed the 2nd that swore off the Seguleh and denounced the traditional values is likely the undead Second who when he meets Crokus makes note that the Seguleh are still taciturn and comes to the conclusion that 'the fever zeal still grips my kin' which is a quote from memory. So yes likely him.

A few things though

-Seguleh- In MOI the Second is considered missing, to which we all thought was the one that turned up in TBH at the time, and the inference is that Mok is sent by the First as he feared Moks growing prowess suggesting that the title of First could be taken by martial prowess and with Mok taking two of his brothers thus eliminating any potential family feud. This sits in with one of the more notorious quotes from MOI where Brood mentions the Seguleh First on the list of epic warriors. At this point the Seguleh are different from what we later see in OST I would guess. Its noted in OST that the Seguleh are fiercely isolationist with a the mere 20 that go with Oru being their biggest undertaking based solely on Orus vision of a priceless religious heirloom. However Krul and Envy throw around phrases like 400 Eleventh level initiates which does not gel with what we later see though is ofcourse possible as initiates are not Agatii though we have no concrete definition. Also the 1st in this instance is more of a religious high priest elder figure with the Second being the best true warrior.

-Timeline- Jan when he fights Enoch in the opening chapter makes a note that its been a year already suggesting that a year is in place between challenges of jumping rank rather than a constant free for all within Seguleh society. It is also shown that Jan could have refused that challenge as was his right given his social position. However with a Second missing in MOI and Jan being portrayed as the established Second in OST, who spoke against Moks expedition though possibly Jan was speaking as one of the Eldrii rather than Second though this seems unlikely given the stricture of Seguleh society though again possible given the family connection. In any case the timeline is not really plausible given the few months between MOI and OST.

Rake- It strikes me as odd that Rake had the mask but I dont think the Seguleh knew until Orus vision of it. Otherwise, given all the talk they had about Rake in MOI Moks priority would have been recovering the Mask rather than challenging him. As for when he got it id say someone gifted it to him or he got it from somewhere else. I dont think he looted a holy artifact from the Seguleh Isle as that doesnt sound like Rake.

As a general rule Nacht timeline is a good one but there are caveats

Excellent points. It is possible that Jan objected to Mok being sent from the perspective of giving advice to his brother (and not as the 2nd).
It also seems likely that 2nd was missing at the time of MOI which means Jan was not the 2nd (maybe he was the 4th and behind Mok) and became the 2nd after Mok came back and it was confirmed that the 2nd was actually dead and became Hood's knight.

Of course, considering the long time between the publication dates of OST and MOI, there might be inconsistencies



From these quotes, I would think the Agatii are seperate from the initiates and that there are multiple levels of initiates. The initiates being students who are prevented from duelling.

Quote

'Invaders to our island. We kill all that come, yet the flow does not cease. The task is left to our Blackmasks - the First Level Initiates

Quote

'How many years since your birth, Senu?' the T'lan Imass asked. 'Fourteen, Master Stoneblade. I am Eleventh Level Initiate.'

Unfortunately, we are forced to extrapolate this information as the authors have no interest in spoonfeeding information to us. So it is left for us to make up some of the stories.

[Kanese S's]

Jan could have become 2nd since Mok's expedition, after the Seguleh deciding that it had been long enough that they could consider the previous 2nd dead, or that if the Knight of Death was the previous 2nd, they could have learned that he is in fact dead and in service to Hood. Despite being lower ranked than Mok at the time, he still may have been able to voice an objection; I don't see that such would be necessarily ruled out.

The 1st at the time of Mok's expedition could have wanted another high ranking Seguleh to see and experience things elsewhere in the world and gain different perspectives than isolation would give, especially if the 1st was nearing the end of his own life, not wanting the Seguleh to be led by someone naive. Presumably he died in the years after MoI.

[tiam]

Kanese S, on 10 July 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Jan could have become 2nd since Mok's expedition, after the Seguleh deciding that it had been long enough that they could consider the previous 2nd dead, or that if the Knight of Death was the previous 2nd, they could have learned that he is in fact dead and in service to Hood. Despite being lower ranked than Mok at the time, he still may have been able to voice an objection; I don't see that such would be necessarily ruled out.

The 1st at the time of Mok's expedition could have wanted another high ranking Seguleh to see and experience things elsewhere in the world and gain different perspectives than isolation would give, especially if the 1st was nearing the end of his own life, not wanting the Seguleh to be led by someone naive. Presumably he died in the years after MoI.

The highlighted bit is where this falls down.

I agree that its possible that Jan spoke against Mok leaving but it could have been personal as in gossip rather than a public decrying of it. Its possible thats why Mok was sent but in MOI its implied it because Moks growing prowess is a factor. I think its just a slight shift in perceptioon from SE to ICE with ICE wanting Seguleh 1st to be a religious role.

However there has not been anywhere near this amount of time between books. THat why Jan saying 'has it really been a year' between challenges is odd as there apparently no Second over a year a go and also the general impression of the book is that Jan is longstanding Second. Its just a moderate shift given the swap in authors.

[Kanese S's]

"Years" could be as few as two.

There have been two books with scenes in Darujhistan since MoI (TtH and TCG). That's quite enough time for the Seguleh First to die and leave the position vacant.

Jan doesn't have to necessarily be long-standing Second, but he would have probably been very near the top of the hierarchy for quite some time, and thus a very familiar and respected figure.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 10 July 2013 - 10:04 PM

[tiam]

Maybe nacht could look it up as im in work but in sure gall the fourth or whoever he is states that hes glad enoch was defeated as it reminded everyone why jan was still second and also we have a indicator of only a few months in the opening chapter. Sorry not much help but im on my phone in work.

[nacht]

By the start of OST, It does seem Jan was 2nd for a while and it was a year since his last challenge.

Quote

So, a year already, is it? He was surprised. Time seemed to pass ever more quickly as he became older. Not that he intended to get older – it was merely the byproduct of his extended wait for someone to manage to defeat him.

Quote

Over the years he had lost count of the many Thirds who had come and gone beneath him.

And it seems Gall was third was quite a long time before he was recently disposed by Enoc

Quote

'Will Gall reclaim the Third?' Jan asked Palla.
She laughed, and, ducking her head, lifted her mask to take a pinched morsel of rice and meats.
'He will. And with gratitude to be back on his old rung again.' 'Gratitude? I did not act as I did for his benefit.'
She bowed, all formal, but her voice held humour: 'Gratitude for reminding everyone why he has remained Third for so long.'

All of this does imply that Jan has been 2nd for a while but I doubt that is only a short time between the end of MOI and the start of OST. A lot of events happened between the end of MOI and the emergence of the tyrant.

This post has been edited by nacht: 11 July 2013 - 05:45 PM

[tiam]

nacht, on 11 July 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

By the start of OST, It does seem Jan was 2nd for a while and it was a year since his last challenge.

Quote

So, a year already, is it? He was surprised. Time seemed to pass ever more quickly as he became older. Not that he intended to get older – it was merely the byproduct of his extended wait for someone to manage to defeat him.

Quote

Over the years he had lost count of the many Thirds who had come and gone beneath him.

And it seems Gall was third was quite a long time before he was recently disposed by Enoc

Quote

'Will Gall reclaim the Third?' Jan asked Palla.
She laughed, and, ducking her head, lifted her mask to take a pinched morsel of rice and meats.
'He will. And with gratitude to be back on his old rung again.' 'Gratitude? I did not act as I did for his benefit.'
She bowed, all formal, but her voice held humour: 'Gratitude for reminding everyone why he has remained Third for so long.'

All of this does imply that Jan has been 2nd for a while but I doubt that is only a short time between the end of MOI and the start of OST. A lot of events happened between the end of MOI and the emergence of the tyrant.

At the end of MOI were told Moons Spawn would crash into the sea in a few months. Almost the first line of the first chapter of OST states that moons Spawn crashed into the sea 2 years before the events of OST. SO weve got say 3 years at most. Yet this doesnt fit. If its a year between challenges then how can Jan have lost count of the countless Thirds especially if you add Gall into the mix as the longstanding Third, which again makes no sense with Mok being Third merely 2 years ago.

The simple fact is it doesnt fit but ICE needed Jan to be a long standing Second. I think the Second we see in TBH was initially meant to be the missing Second but things simply didnt pan out that way from MOI. Its easy to see why things fell the the way they did.

I cant beleieve I had to look that up and you swines wouldnt take me on my half remembered recollection of a book I havnt read in 2 years. For shame />

Theres also a bit in the viewpoint of Silanah/Spinnock Durav in TTH that puts TTH around a year after MOI. Im sure Nacht on his electronic copy of the books can find it easier than old tiam can.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 12 July 2013 - 06:52 PM

[Maester]

Was there ever a clear timeline as to when the Undead Second went missing? If not, then I'm going to think of it like this: Undead Second goes missing sometime in the past, Jan becomes Second. Jan defeats many challenging Thirds. The First sends a newly reigning Third (Mok) away, despite Jan's objections. Jan defeats more challenging Thirds. I'm disregarding the Gall as the Third Timeline because he was Fourth for a while, there's no reason he couldn't have been Fourth when Mok was Third.

[Abyss]

The Soldier/Second's timeline remains hazy. All we really know is that he started serving Death way back when the Seguleh still served an active Tyrant or just after the last one, because he seems to predate the modern Seguleh warrior cult culture.


His conflict with Skinner could post-date his death.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 14 July 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

The Soldier/Second's timeline remains hazy. All we really know is that he started serving Death way back when the Seguleh still served an active Tyrant or just after the last one, because he seems to predate the modern Seguleh warrior cult culture.


His conflict with Skinner could post-date his death.

I dont think its clear cut that hes been serving Hood since the Tyrant. I dont want to get into it but there was alot of timeline confusion in OST about how old D'stan is and when the Tyrant ruled and such. Its possible that Hood simply brought him back when he was necessary. I would also imagine that the Skinner conflict was from his time as a servant of Hood.

He could have actually been the first Second after their 'exile' to the Isle. The Seguleh leave the city but the Second loses his patience/enthusiasm for the new silent brooding pseudo-bushido code the Seguleh seem to be adopting and decides to leave making him potentially the first renegade Seguleh.

[Kanese S's]

Darujhistan seems to be the center of timeline anomalies.

[D'rek]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 12 July 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

nacht, on 11 July 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

By the start of OST, It does seem Jan was 2nd for a while and it was a year since his last challenge.

Quote

So, a year already, is it? He was surprised. Time seemed to pass ever more quickly as he became older. Not that he intended to get older – it was merely the byproduct of his extended wait for someone to manage to defeat him.

Quote

Over the years he had lost count of the many Thirds who had come and gone beneath him.

And it seems Gall was third was quite a long time before he was recently disposed by Enoc

Quote

'Will Gall reclaim the Third?' Jan asked Palla.
She laughed, and, ducking her head, lifted her mask to take a pinched morsel of rice and meats.
'He will. And with gratitude to be back on his old rung again.' 'Gratitude? I did not act as I did for his benefit.'
She bowed, all formal, but her voice held humour: 'Gratitude for reminding everyone why he has remained Third for so long.'

All of this does imply that Jan has been 2nd for a while but I doubt that is only a short time between the end of MOI and the start of OST. A lot of events happened between the end of MOI and the emergence of the tyrant.

At the end of MOI were told Moons Spawn would crash into the sea in a few months. Almost the first line of the first chapter of OST states that moons Spawn crashed into the sea 2 years before the events of OST. SO weve got say 3 years at most. Yet this doesnt fit. If its a year between challenges then how can Jan have lost count of the countless Thirds especially if you add Gall into the mix as the longstanding Third, which again makes no sense with Mok being Third merely 2 years ago.

The simple fact is it doesnt fit but ICE needed Jan to be a long standing Second. I think the Second we see in TBH was initially meant to be the missing Second but things simply didnt pan out that way from MOI. Its easy to see why things fell the the way they did.

I cant beleieve I had to look that up and you swines wouldnt take me on my half remembered recollection of a book I havnt read in 2 years. For shame />

Theres also a bit in the viewpoint of Silanah/Spinnock Durav in TTH that puts TTH around a year after MOI. Im sure Nacht on his electronic copy of the books can find it easier than old tiam can.

The supposed rule that the Second can only be challenged once a year is entirely made up by us, though. There could be plenty of other reasons for the "has it been a year already" comment that do not require Jan, Gall or Enoc to have been in their positions for any particular amount of time.

For me, the biggest point of interest is that when Enoc was defeated he was seemingly super-demoted while obviously much earlier Gall was defeated and was simply moved down to 4th, and could re-take his spot as 3rd after Enoc was defeated. Perhaps that is a trend, and when you duel for the Second and lose you are cast out of the Agatii or some other major penalty, but in any other position you just move positions up and down. If that were the case, the timeline could be something like this:



month/year

02/131BS - The current Seguleh First, who wears The White First Mask, leads the Seguleh into exile from Darujhistan. Once upon the island, he throws away his mask and begins The Wooden mask tradition.

05/730BS - Rake duels a whole bunch on the Seguleh Island. As he is leaving, he steals The White First Mask.


[...]

01/1162BS - 1st=vacant, 2nd=Bob, 3rd=Jim, 4th=Amy, 5th=Mok, 6th=Allison, 7th=Rake, 8th=Jan

The Seguleh temple or whatever offers Bob The Wooden 1st and he takes it

01/1164BS - 1st=Bob, 2nd=Jim, 3rd=Mok, 4th=Amy, 5th=Jan, 6th=Thomas, 7th=Rake, 8th=Gall

Bob sends Mok, Thurule and Senu to punish the Pannion Domin
Mok and Senu return as broken men, lose their positions

09/1164BS - 1st=Bob, 2nd=Jim, 3rd=Jan, 4th=Allison, 5th=Amy, 6th=Gall, 7th=Rake, 8th=Thomas

Jan challenges and defeats Jim

10/1164BS - 1st=Bob, 2nd=Jan, 3rd=Allison, 4th=Amy, 5th=Gall, 6th=Thomas, 7th=Rake, 8th=Garrett

Jan is challenged by Allison, Jan wins
Jan is challenged by Amy, Jan wins

01/1165BS - 1st=Bob, 2nd=Jan, 3rd=Gall, 4th=Thomas, 5th=Garrett, 6th=Leia, 7th=Rake, 8th=Tony

Thomas defeats Gall, then challenges Jan. Jan wins. Gall reclaims the 3rd.

03/1165BS - 1st=Bob, 2nd=Jan, 3rd=Gall, 4th=Garrett, 5th=Leia, 6th=Tony, 7th=Rake, 8th=Jerome

Garrett defeats Gall, then challenges Jan. Jan wins. Gall reclaims the 3rd.

04/1165BS - 1st=Bob, 2nd=Jan, 3rd=Gall, 4th=Leia, 5th=Tony, 6th=Jerome, 7th=Rake, 8th=Lisa

Leia challenges Jan directly. Jan wins.
Tony defeats Gall, then challenges Jan. Jan wins. Gall reclaims the 3rd.
Jerome defeats Gall, then challenges Jan. Jan wins. Gall reclaims the 3rd.

etc etc...

06/1165BS - 1st=Bob, 2nd=Jan, 3rd=Gall, 4th=Lisa, 5th=Fred, 6th=Broomhilda, 7th=Rake, 8th=Bahamut

Bob The Wooden First dies or something. Jan is not offered the First.

07/1165BS - 1st=[vacant], 2nd=Jan, 3rd=Gall, 4th=Lisa, 5th=Fred, 6th=Broomhilda, 7th=Rake, 8th=Bahamut

[...]

09/1166BS - Enoc, currently the 100th, proclaims he will rise to the top in only a year, a feat no one has attempted since Rell almost accomplished it in 1163BS

09/1167BS - 1st=[vacant], 2nd=Jan, 3rd=Enoc, 4th=Gall, 5th=??, 6th=??, 7th=Rake, 8th=Palla??

Enoc challenges Jan. Jan wins.

10/1167BS - 1st=[vacant], 2nd=Jan, 3rd=Gall, 4th=Gall, 5th=??, 6th=Palla??, 7th=Rake, 8th=??

Jan leads the Seguleh to Darujhistan, Oru finds The White Mask, stuff happens in Darujhistan, Jan dies and Dassem Swordtor becomes the new White-Mask First

[nacht]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 12 July 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

nacht, on 11 July 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

By the start of OST, It does seem Jan was 2nd for a while and it was a year since his last challenge.

Quote

So, a year already, is it? He was surprised. Time seemed to pass ever more quickly as he became older. Not that he intended to get older – it was merely the byproduct of his extended wait for someone to manage to defeat him.

Quote

Over the years he had lost count of the many Thirds who had come and gone beneath him.

And it seems Gall was third was quite a long time before he was recently disposed by Enoc

Quote

'Will Gall reclaim the Third?' Jan asked Palla.
She laughed, and, ducking her head, lifted her mask to take a pinched morsel of rice and meats.
'He will. And with gratitude to be back on his old rung again.' 'Gratitude? I did not act as I did for his benefit.'
She bowed, all formal, but her voice held humour: 'Gratitude for reminding everyone why he has remained Third for so long.'

All of this does imply that Jan has been 2nd for a while but I doubt that is only a short time between the end of MOI and the start of OST. A lot of events happened between the end of MOI and the emergence of the tyrant.

At the end of MOI were told Moons Spawn would crash into the sea in a few months. Almost the first line of the first chapter of OST states that moons Spawn crashed into the sea 2 years before the events of OST. SO weve got say 3 years at most. Yet this doesnt fit. If its a year between challenges then how can Jan have lost count of the countless Thirds especially if you add Gall into the mix as the longstanding Third, which again makes no sense with Mok being Third merely 2 years ago.

The simple fact is it doesnt fit but ICE needed Jan to be a long standing Second. I think the Second we see in TBH was initially meant to be the missing Second but things simply didnt pan out that way from MOI. Its easy to see why things fell the the way they did.

I cant beleieve I had to look that up and you swines wouldnt take me on my half remembered recollection of a book I havnt read in 2 years. For shame />

Theres also a bit in the viewpoint of Silanah/Spinnock Durav in TTH that puts TTH around a year after MOI. Im sure Nacht on his electronic copy of the books can find it easier than old tiam can.

Ok, I have a response for this now :-)
It is Harrlo.
Between MOI and TTH that would be 6+ years.

Quote

Harllo was five, maybe close to six, but already tall – stretched, laughed Gruntle, stretched and scrawny because that’s how boys grow.

[tiam]

But ofcourse Harllo is th largest acknowledged distortion of the timeline.

[worry]

Unlesssssssss he's actually on the Grub diet (hardtack, constant war, widespread trauma, and magic) and just grows really fast and looks five or six.