[Spoilsport Stonny]

04 June 2013

France opens new front in war with Internet giants

AFP - France's culture minister has branded online retailer Amazon a "destroyer" of bookshops in the latest confrontation between the Socialist government in Paris and America's giants of the digital economy.
"Today, everyone has had enough of Amazon, which, by dumping, slashes prices to get a foothold in markets only to raise them once they have established a virtual monopoly," Culture Minister Aurelie Filippetti said.

"It is destructive for bookshops," the minister told a conference of booksellers Monday in the southwestern city of Bordeaux.

Filippetti said that she would be examining measures that could curb Amazon's growth in France by restricting the American giant's ability to combine offers of free deliveries with discounts of up to five percent on cover prices, which is the maximum allowed in France under existing legislation designed to protect small booksellers.

The attack on Amazon is the latest in a series of disputes between the French government and American companies including Google, Yahoo! and Apple.

French authorities are already embroiled in a dispute with Amazon over a $252 million tax bill related to the company's sales in France between 2006 and 2010.

The dispute arose because of Amazon's practice of reporting European sales through a Luxembourg-based holding company, taking advantage of the tiny Duchy's relatively low corporation tax rates for earnings outside its borders.

Amazon insists the arrangement, which has been criticised by politicians across Europe, is legal under the European Union's single market rules.

Industrial Renewal Minister Arnaud Montebourg last month also infuriated Yahoo! by placing a series of conditions on its proposed takeover of French video-sharing site Dailymotion, causing the deal to collapse.

France is meanwhile at loggerheads with Google over privacy issues and over demands that it pass on part of its advertising revenues to newspapers and other content providers that the search engine links to.

The Paris government has also clashed with Apple and other hi-tech manufacturers over proposals to tax smartphones and tablets to fund French-language creative and artistic projects.



http://www.france24....internet-giants

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 05 June 2013 - 01:09 PM

[Jagh-o-matic]

Hey, anything to distract from gross incompetence and failed ideologies...

[Kanese S's]

I never order through Amazon. Ordering a book through my local bookstore is actually faster. And there are people working there who are fans of nerdy fantasy books like I am.

[sting01]

Jagh-o-matic, on 05 June 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Hey, anything to distract from gross incompetence and failed ideologies...

Are we spoken about ultra -liberalism , such used in some remote and industrially decadent country located in Nothern america? Or are we commenting a decision taken by a legally and democratically elected governement wich country is still the 5 th economical power, and still is present everywhere in the world (Northern and Sud Americas, Asia, Pacific, Africa and Europe as well)?

When I was young, our heroes were the GI, the only movies we praised were comming from Hollywood, music was 'Chubby sheaker live at the Point', and so on. So today, 50 years after, I do believe results show the gross incompetence and the failed ideologies indeed exist, but they do have name such : Bush (father and on), Nixon, .... So please , stay quiet, watch your mouse better, and try to think of what you can do for your country (I am certain you do love it as much as I do love mine) to make it retrieve its former and now vanished glory; but please, do not speak about things you obviously are not made to understand (lack of education on that very subject in my opinion). Your comment is similar to me willing to comment a decision made by the Government of USA : not my place because I am not aware of the details, neither do I understand the needs and feelings of American People.

[Jagh-o-matic]

sting01, on 07 June 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Jagh-o-matic, on 05 June 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Hey, anything to distract from gross incompetence and failed ideologies...

Are we spoken about ultra -liberalism , such used in some remote and industrially decadent country located in Nothern america? Or are we commenting a decision taken by a legally and democratically elected governement wich country is still the 5 th economical power, and still is present everywhere in the world (Northern and Sud Americas, Asia, Pacific, Africa and Europe as well)?

When I was young, our heroes were the GI, the only movies we praised were comming from Hollywood, music was 'Chubby sheaker live at the Point', and so on. So today, 50 years after, I do believe results show the gross incompetence and the failed ideologies indeed exist, but they do have name such : Bush (father and on), Nixon, .... So please , stay quiet, watch your mouse better, and try to think of what you can do for your country (I am certain you do love it as much as I do love mine) to make it retrieve its former and now vanished glory; but please, do not speak about things you obviously are not made to understand (lack of education on that very subject in my opinion). Your comment is similar to me willing to comment a decision made by the Government of USA : not my place because I am not aware of the details, neither do I understand the needs and feelings of American People.

Hard to follow exactly what you are trying to say here ... are you French? Anyway, you are more than welcome to make comments regarding the gross incompetence and failed ideologies of the government of the United States - there is small difference between it and most others. I won't get all defensive and resort to infantile ad hominems while projecting my angst about "former and now vanished glory."

[Kanese S's]

This thread is going places.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I think that since France is the 5th largest economy aqnd that they have a worldwide presence that anyone around the world has a right to comment on their failed ideologies. Was he snarky? Yeah, but his point (I think) is that making laws inhibiting an international discount online retailer, whether good or bad, doesn't distract from their increasing loss of industrial competitiveness, bewildering tax and social security burden, excessive regulation and an ever increasing lower class consisting mostly of poor and unskilled immigrants. Also, you gotta admit, the French National anthem is a tad xenophobic.

None of which excuses the good ol' US of A of anything.

[Silencer]

OK, so, this is in the Discussion Board...are you guys going to discuss the article or is this going to be a USA vs France vs Whatever pissing contest?

OP: What was your intended direction of discussion when you posted this article?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I thought we were discussing. I liked the direction it went, although I do feel that sting's reaction was a little overblown and JoM's was inflammatory.
Anyway, my original intent was to highlight an effort to save small bookstores on the part of France's government. The discussion can go in a myriad of directions. For instance:

a. Should government interfere in an industry/market in order to support the small businessperson? Should the consumer be allowed to make their own choices of where and how much they spend of their money?
b. Is France overplaying their hand here? Do they have a right to regulate the price at which a product is sold? Do they have bigger poisson to saute?
c. What does this mean for the brick-and-mortar book retailer? Can they even compete with Amazon? Is Amazon up to shady business? Can retailers and online discounters work in the same theater? Should they (online retailers) be limited to e-book sales only?
d. We're pretty international here on the boards. What do you feel about amazon's presence in your home country?
e. Have you been more or less satisfied with Amazon in comparison to the small bookshop?

My options in my home area are limited. My local bookstore closed several months ago and the only other small shop is too far to visit regularly, so I either buy from a used book shop or online. Those are not great options, at least as it pertains to author reimbursement. I bet there are many areas of France that don't have quality bookstores in the vicinity of every consumer. Perhaps your situation is different, but I would not support a federal agency propping up a small bookstore just to keep it in business.

Maybe with reduced bank loan rates, extended credit or more flexible lease options. But certainly not by forcing out the competition. However I do think that using short-term discount pricing to gain a foothold in a market is disengenuous and I fully support pricing regulations. I ran a record store that suffered and had to close because Best Buy, WalMart and Target used their music sales as loss-leaders, and I know many more that closed for the same reason. Yeah we sold vinyl, but the margin on those wasn't enough to pay overhead, let alone a staff, workman's comp, healthcare, marketing and advertising, etc. etc. I think that's what France is attempting here, and as long as they keep it to that, I fully support it. No need to make Amazon out to be a demon, just address the problem, change the laws and regulations and carry on.

Let's restructure the discussion on those terms, yes?

[Jagh-o-matic]

Since a genuine interest in this thread is beginning to develop, I would like to expand on my previous comments. I will admit to being snarky, inflammatory, even glib. I will admit to inviting a boredom-induced flame war. I meant what I said, however, in this way: I take no position with respect to the actual policy prescriptions involved in this story. My point is, a government that presides over a steadily declining economy and shockingly low public approval that then chooses to engage in public vilification of a private business enterprise ought take a moment to get its own house in order. I find it mildly offensive. Amazon's business model may have all kinds of downside for various parties, but I doubt it is a key element in the overall economic situation. If you don't like it, do your policy thing and shut the hell up rather than appeal to the more impressionable elements of your base with hack demagoguery.

Now, Stonny raises some interesting questions:


a. Should government interfere in an industry/market in order to support the small businessperson? Should the consumer be allowed to make their own choices of where and how much they spend of their money?
- mostly no and mostly yes, but there are social questions that may come into play, and anticompetitive situations that can be economically destructive. I always start from the libertarian proposition that any government intervention should be minimally intrusive to serve a compelling purpose.
b. Is France overplaying their hand here? Do they have a right to regulate the price at which a product is sold? Do they have bigger poisson to saute?
- Their business.
c. What does this mean for the brick-and-mortar book retailer? Can they even compete with Amazon? Is Amazon up to shady business? Can retailers and online discounters work in the same theater? Should they (online retailers) be limited to e-book sales only?
- Not good, not easily, define shady, yes, no
d. We're pretty international here on the boards. What do you feel about amazon's presence in your home country?
- Love it
e. Have you been more or less satisfied with Amazon in comparison to the small bookshop?
- more

I find myself contemplating whether or not the Lt. Kilgore avatar affects the discussion in any way when I make a comment like the one above. He's just so ... 'Merican. If so, I am perversely and antisocially pleased. Purely a pop culture thing for me, though - just for the record, I'm not actually a semi-retarded Custer-wannabe surfer dude. Although I would gladly play one on TV if given an appropriate contract.

Also, Stonny, I admire your avatar as being deliciously and perfectly calculated to deflect any accusations of wanting to be taken seriously. Rock on, brother.

This post has been edited by Jagh-o-matic: 07 June 2013 - 06:03 PM

[nacht]

Please don't decry everything French, for there was this one glorious Frenchman, that we should all be everlastingly thankful to

and read the Candlemakers petition

This post has been edited by nacht: 07 June 2013 - 07:15 PM

[Jagh-o-matic]

nacht, on 07 June 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Please don't decry everything French, for there was this one glorious Frenchman, that we should all be everlastingly thankful to

and read the Candlemakers petition

Wouldn't dream of it. And I agree, Jacque Cousteau rocks.

[Illuyankas]

They should pay their fucking taxes.

[Shinrei]

I'm surprised the French aren't insisting on handmade paper manufacturing and moveable type printing presses to help support the jobs in those industries. What will those poor typsetters do if they are replaced by something faster? As we all know, books should only be affordable for royalty anyways.

[Shinrei]

Illuyankas, on 08 June 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

They should pay their fucking taxes.

I should add a word about this methinks:

It's the government's job to collect taxes. If this country specific tax loophole exists, it's up to the Eurozone countries to close it if they really care to. Blaming Amazon for doing something perfectly legal is ridiculous. If you were offered two jobs that were the same in every way - salary, benefits, retirement etc, but one was in taxachussets and the other in nontaxistan, don't tell me you'd choose taxachussets out of some heartfelt obligation to pay extra.

[Illuyankas]

I don't know, I mean, Taxachusetts sounds like it'll have, you know, infrastructure? Healthcare? Services? Whereas Libertariopia Nontaxistan with its privatised everything and lack of regulations for things like water and food and medical care means I'll have spent what I pay in taxes by the third road toll for corporate streets on the way to Wal-Doc Hospital #217 to sell a kidney to pay for the mercury poisoning treatment my kids will need from drinking a glass of tap water.

Firing half your staff, cutting the rest's wages and doubling their workload is legal. AND SHITTY AS FUCK. And yeah, if it came down to picking between the same job in France or Somalia, just hand me my fucking beret! I would pick the taxes one because I'm not a selfish shitlord and no man is an island. The system is broken, so clearly exploiting it is the right thing to do? To hell with that.

[Shinrei]

Because that's OBVIOUSLY the choice I offered you.

[Illuyankas]

Still gonna pay my taxes.

I was gonna make a Snow Crash joke here but you don't deserve that.

[Shinrei]

Ok, I'll admit that name should have been "lesstaxistan", but that has less ring to it...

[Shinrei]

Illuyankas, on 11 June 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Still gonna pay my taxes.

I was gonna make a Snow Crash joke here but you don't deserve that.

So those taxes can pay for some bureaucrat kid's private schooling, help subsidize spinoccoli crops that no one wants to purchase much less eat, and a nice fat check for the banking industry friend of several senators who engaged in predatory lending and needs a bailout to start the bubble anew?

Two can play the strawman game.