[Infyra]

Spoiler

Having finished this book and beyond, halfway trough DoD at the moment I was wondering about two little things:

Near the end of this book, the moon is shattered, and it seems to impress a lot of the characters, judging from the descriptions of their reactions.
By the end of the book it is mentioned that the pieces of the moon are pulling back to the spot there they were once the whole thing (or am I remembering this wrong?).

My big surpise is at the further reactions and consequences to something that would seem as important as the moon being shattered to pieces, especially with the Moon being mentioned throughout the series as a symbol of different things. (Did I read that the moon is a window from which Kurald Galain looks into this world?)

Did the moon really get destroyed there? What caused this? Is the Dust of Dreams (the title of the next book) related to the destroyed moon? Why do people seem to be rather unimpressed after the initial shattering, and why is it never mentioned again? Is it really gone? Did it reform from the pieces after expending, or was it never really gone at all?

One other unrelated thing, after reading, for example the prologue to this book, in my mind the warren inside dragnipur seemed to me to be inside hoods realm.
There is a storm mentioned at the prologue during the part with the two characters in Hood's realm, shortly after this the book mentions the chaos storm near the wagon with the gate. I always had a theory that the gate and the carriage/wagon were in a remote part of Hoods realm, and that Dragnipur simply chained the ones slain by it to this wagon.
The end of the book kinda shatters this theory as Hood wouldn't have any trouble arriving at the wagon without getting slain if the wagon was actually in his realm. On the other side, we see the dead marching through hoods realm to some destination, and in the end, they arrive at the wagon, is this all simply a coincidence? Does anyone else think the wagon with the gate inside Dragnipur could actually just be in a really remote part of Hoods realm?

This post has been edited by Infyra: 27 May 2013 - 01:41 PM

[Defiance]

Someone else might be able to go into more detail, but:

Remember the Jade Statues that fell onto the planet in book six? Some of those made Swiss cheese out of the moon. The characters do notice that this has happened, and if I recall correctly there are mentions as far back as The Bonehunters of the moon being more "hazy" than usual (surely a result of all the dust from the impacts). It takes until the end of Toll the Hounds to break up. From a combination of its own gravity - and whatever other supernatural force might be at work on the planet's moon - it is able to hold itself together.

One thing to remember is that there is so much other stuff going on in this climax that the characters really don't have time to stop and wonder about just what the hell is going on with the moon. If something like that happened in our world, we'd all be shitting our pants. In the Malazan world, however, where magic is rather commonplace and astronomical understanding is nowhere near what it is today, such a thing wouldn't have quite the impact one might expect. It's something that is distant, removed from the happenings of the people of the Malazan world.

The realm inside Dragnipur is, I believe, a warren that Draconus created to hold the gate to Kurald Galain. It could have been one of Hood's "pocket realms" that Draconus was allowed to use, but whatever the case the forging of Dragnipur sealed off the warren from anyone who would try to enter by means other than the sword. Hood gets Dragnipur'd because it's the only way to get his army inside the sword - in a sense he acts as a beacon (think of how Paran summoned Oponn back in Gardens of the Moon).

The area in the prologue isn't within the same realm as Dragnipur. It is set up, however, to evoke that sense within the reader since when one pays attention to the context, they'll find that the "sound of approaching chains" means that Anomander is coming, thus setting up the Shadowthrone-Cotillion-Hood-Rake plan.

This post has been edited by Defiance: 27 May 2013 - 02:36 PM

[Abyss]

Just a suggestion Infyra, up to youbut if you have two totally separate and distinct questions like this, it makes more sense to start two separateb threads. Otherwise it's likely one or the other will dominate the thread, or the discussion will become confused.

Next point... it's the TtH subforum and you've clearly read the whole book... no need for spoiler blocks.

Infyra, on 27 May 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

...Near the end of this book, the moon is shattered, and it seems to impress a lot of the characters, judging from the descriptions of their reactions.
By the end of the book it is mentioned that the pieces of the moon are pulling back to the spot there they were once the whole thing (or am I remembering this wrong?).

You're remembering it right, but the description in the book is very hazy, given other events going on.

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My big surpise is at the further reactions and consequences to something that would seem as important as the moon being shattered to pieces, especially with the Moon being mentioned throughout the series as a symbol of different things

.

There isn't really time given the focus on the Dragnipur related events.

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(Did I read that the moon is a window from which Kurald Galain looks into this world?)

I don't recall that. There is the suggestion that someone used the light from the shattered moon to gate in the HoLs.

Quote

Did the moon really get destroyed there? What caused this? Is the Dust of Dreams (the title of the next book) related to the destroyed moon? Why do people seem to be rather unimpressed after the initial shattering, and why is it never mentioned again? Is it really gone? Did it reform from the pieces after expending, or was it never really gone at all?

RAFO, the chunks of Jade, RAFO, RAFO, RAFO, no, RAFO and not exactly.

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One other unrelated thing, after reading, for example the prologue to this book, in my mind the warren inside dragnipur seemed to me to be inside hoods realm.

Nope. When Hood is Dragnipur'd, he forms a link between the Dragnipur warren and his own and brings his armies across.

Quote

There is a storm mentioned at the prologue during the part with the two characters in Hood's realm, shortly after this the book mentions the chaos storm near the wagon with the gate. I always had a theory that the gate and the carriage/wagon were in a remote part of Hoods realm, and that Dragnipur simply chained the ones slain by it to this wagon.

That storm was probably a reflection of the one gathering in the sword warren. Something that big would prompt 'echoes', especially since Hood was already moving his armies into place 'near' Dragnipur.

The carriage in the prologue was a completely different thing from the wagon in Dragnipur.

Quote

The end of the book kinda shatters this theory as Hood wouldn't have any trouble arriving at the wagon without getting slain if the wagon was actually in his realm. On the other side, we see the dead marching through hoods realm to some destination, and in the end, they arrive at the wagon, is this all simply a coincidence? Does anyone else think the wagon with the gate inside Dragnipur could actually just be in a really remote part of Hoods realm? [/spoiler]

Per above, no. Dragnipur was an entirely closed off warren, except for the gate to MommyD that couldn't be accessed. At the end of TtH Dragnipur is weakening, and Hood is powerful enough to bring his armies through, but up to that point it was impossible, and even then Hood had to come to D'stan in his entirety and truly 'die' to do it.

All that being said, the point was made back in TB and elsebook that warrens overlap, and i agree with you that there's a certain logic to Dragnipur being closer to 'death', as well as Dark, obviously.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Since the warrens are kind of like veins in the human body, do you think its likely that perhaps, even though being closed off, the warren of dragnipur could perhaps exist in close proximity to Hood's death warren? THey both are dead soul-capturing warrens, and it would make sense. It would also allow for Hood's army being able to manifest in Dragnipur quickly. Mostly speculative, yes, but it seems a very SE kind of explanation, in that he doesn't explain it.

[nacht]

Warrens are more like this.


http://www.tor.com/b...tides-questions

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21. Sanctume. Are Warrens a separate space and time with the Malazan planet?

Steven: Yes.

21. Sanctume. Or are Warrens more a separate dimension (with its own timeline) that exists parallel to the Malazan planet?

Steven: Yes.

21. Sanctume. Are Warrens like cities, and are Holds like states?

Steven: No. Warrens are younger version (2.0) of Holds.

21. Sanctume. Is the CG's tent like a small mobile city that can exist in other states (Hold like Mael's) ?

Dragnipur is a warren. To get into it, you have to have your head cut off.
Hood himself owns a warren. Maybe when Hood met Dragnipur, there was some kind of Merger.

and then Anomander sacrificed himeself and Dragnipur got shattered.
Somehow as a result of this MD got freed and Chaos got contained or something.

There is a desire in a lot of us to understand the actual rules of these interactions and wish for them to be consistent
but I am not sure the authors themselves have thought it through to that extent. At some point it is all yada, yada, yada. The question is whether the yada, yada, yada is of the type "this is quantum physics. I dont understand it but other smarter people do" or "This is just a book of fiction. Stop looking for answers so much."


Just to clarify, from the Authors perspective, it is important for them that their readers understand "what" happened but the questions of "why?" or "how?" might be something they don't care about that much.

This post has been edited by nacht: 28 May 2013 - 09:20 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I dont think thats the whole truth. Somewhere quick ben describes them as being like worlds that sometimes run closer to each other than at other times. The trygalle trade guild has "maps" to travel the warrens. Yes its tough, but Hoods entire army was there and they didnt have their heads cut off. Ganoes Paran was there too, yet he was fully connected to his labanza. I agree with all you said, bit there is a kind of Lovecraftian geography to them and some are easier to acceess than others from certain warrens and Wu-based locales. Dragnipur is anything but a perfectly sealed off warren.

As per the authors' intent to obfuscate, if they can be cagey, then i can be speculative.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 28 May 2013 - 11:26 PM

[Defiance]

What's important to realize is that we're dealing with magic here. It is, by its definition, supernatural and mysterious. One could say that completely understanding how magic works is anathema to it. It defies such rigid classification, and personally I think books that spell out every little thing about magic kill the wonder of it. The other end of this is that authors can use magic as an excuse to pull deus ex machina out of their asses. I don't think Erikson ever does this, however. There is one notable exception, which is the Azath in Gardens of the Moon, but within the context of the series (especially the following book, Deadhouse Gates) it's not deus ex machina at all.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

[nacht]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 28 May 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

I dont think thats the whole truth. Somewhere quick ben describes them as being like worlds that sometimes run closer to each other than at other times. The trygalle trade guild has "maps" to travel the warrens. Yes its tough, but Hoods entire army was there and they didnt have their heads cut off. Ganoes Paran was there too, yet he was fully connected to his labanza. I agree with all you said, bit there is a kind of Lovecraftian geography to them and some are easier to acceess than others from certain warrens and Wu-based locales. Dragnipur is anything but a perfectly sealed off warren.

As per the authors' intent to obfuscate, if they can be cagey, then i can be speculative.

I dont disagree. In GotM, QB says that there are doors between warrens (or points where the crossover is easier) but I think "dimensions" would the trope that warrens are based upon.
Shadow is described often like this. Just step into a shadow and a good mage can find himself in the shadow warren. I think Hoods warren is tied to Hood himself and when he stepped into Dragnipur, it created some kind of merger.

[Infyra]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 28 May 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

I dont think thats the whole truth. Somewhere quick ben describes them as being like worlds that sometimes run closer to each other than at other times. The trygalle trade guild has "maps" to travel the warrens. Yes its tough, but Hoods entire army was there and they didnt have their heads cut off. Ganoes Paran was there too, yet he was fully connected to his labanza. I agree with all you said, bit there is a kind of Lovecraftian geography to them and some are easier to acceess than others from certain warrens and Wu-based locales. Dragnipur is anything but a perfectly sealed off warren.

As per the authors' intent to obfuscate, if they can be cagey, then i can be speculative.

Thanks for answering my questions, and you are right that I should have split them, the second question almost arrived as an afterthought after writing down the first one. And spoilers, yes it makes sense now, but when I posted this I just wanted to me save for my first post. So can we ask questions about earlier books here? I can't remember which book the Jaghut underworld bridge was in, it linked in the end with the nascent, anyone remember which book that was?

Actually IIRC, even the Trygalle Trade Guild managed to get inside Dragnipur before it got shattered, I think this was with pointers or some kind of map from Cartographer? Why would he know the way? Why were all these legions of Hood marching if he could just summon them once he was inside Dragnipur? I personally do not really like the Trygalle Trade Guild, especially them showing up in these almost impossible to reach places such as Dragnipur, the Jaghut Underworld Bridge or the Azath house in Raraku, it almost feels like a anticlimax after living the epic journey through all the characters in the Deadhouse Gates. So there are some High Mages who use their power for other ends (personal gain), is that the point, to counterbalance the High Mages that use their power for other ends (war?). Sure, Erikson manages to describe the terrible toll this takes on the Trygalle, but still it somehow feels wrong to have a mortal, essentially mundane organisation having access to these places just like that.

This post has been edited by Infyra: 29 May 2013 - 04:14 PM

[D'rek]

I like the idea of Dragnipur being carved out of Hood's warren (or another warren, or a hold)... it seems plausible to me since we know so little of how Draconus made it. There are sections of Hood's warren / the old death hold that Hood does not seem to actively use, such as the Jaghut bridge of death from tBH, so why not. And even with Hood bringing his armies with him, he had to move them into Dragnipur somehow. Maybe he held them within himself, but if so why did they need to march around at all? So sure, why not have it that there was some passage those armies could use into Dragnipur that Hood either broached or unlocked when he arrived.

[tiam]

Infyra, on 29 May 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 28 May 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

I dont think thats the whole truth. Somewhere quick ben describes them as being like worlds that sometimes run closer to each other than at other times. The trygalle trade guild has "maps" to travel the warrens. Yes its tough, but Hoods entire army was there and they didnt have their heads cut off. Ganoes Paran was there too, yet he was fully connected to his labanza. I agree with all you said, bit there is a kind of Lovecraftian geography to them and some are easier to acceess than others from certain warrens and Wu-based locales. Dragnipur is anything but a perfectly sealed off warren.

As per the authors' intent to obfuscate, if they can be cagey, then i can be speculative.

Thanks for answering my questions, and you are right that I should have split them, the second question almost arrived as an afterthought after writing down the first one. And spoilers, yes it makes sense now, but when I posted this I just wanted to me save for my first post. So can we ask questions about earlier books here? I can't remember which book the Jaghut underworld bridge was in, it linked in the end with the nascent, anyone remember which book that was?

Actually IIRC, even the Trygalle Trade Guild managed to get inside Dragnipur before it got shattered, I think this was with pointers or some kind of map from Cartographer? Why would he know the way? Why were all these legions of Hood marching if he could just summon them once he was inside Dragnipur? I personally do not really like the Trygalle Trade Guild, especially them showing up in these almost impossible to reach places such as Dragnipur, the Jaghut Underworld Bridge or the Azath house in Raraku, it almost feels like a anticlimax after living the epic journey through all the characters in the Deadhouse Gates. So there are some High Mages who use their power for other ends (personal gain), is that the point, to counterbalance the High Mages that use their power for other ends (war?). Sure, Erikson manages to describe the terrible toll this takes on the Trygalle, but still it somehow feels wrong to have a mortal, essentially mundane organisation having access to these places just like that.

I tend to agree about the Trygalle being somewhat of a conveneint plot device. The Chain of Dogs one was the worst usage of this as it was just a supply and info dump from unknown characters.

As for their appearance in Dragnipur this was a time when they were fighting choas thus allowing Dragnipur to be breached. As with Hoods gate now being permanently closed again if Dragnipur was still going away from chaos it would be unassailable. Having said that Nighchill wanted it to free Draconus so may have had a bit of inside info. Its designed to keep people in not out so maybe uber entities only stayed away from it because of Rake.

[worry]

IMO, essentially if you're not chained to the wagon through "death"-by-Dragnipur, then it's a warren like any other and you can probably go in and out of the Dragnipur warren at will. You'd have to want to visit it and would probably have to find it like a needle in a very very large haystack, but hypothetically it's all possible. It's just unlikely that anyone had ever wanted to enter voluntarily until the events of TTH.

[tiam]

sorrysort, on 29 May 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

IMO, essentially if you're not chained to the wagon through "death"-by-Dragnipur, then it's a warren like any other and you can probably go in and out of the Dragnipur warren at will. You'd have to want to visit it and would probably have to find it like a needle in a very very large haystack, but hypothetically it's all possible. It's just unlikely that anyone had ever wanted to enter voluntarily until the events of TTH.

Its possible though I see it as a self contained Mappos sack warren that is cut off. Otherwise im sure Nightchill as a master of sorcery would have broken into to Dragnipur using these means rather than attempting to seize the sword of Rake.

Though ofcourse it is possible. The Trygalle claim to have mastered travelling through Tellan yet didnt out of respect for the Imass, though ofcourse traversing Tellan could well have earned the Imass' ire in the same way it would have earned Rake attention. At the same time even from ancient entities like Envy we get the viewpoint that Parans entry in Dragnipur unchained is a big deal and Draconus gives the same impression and he was a presumably one of the earlier prisoners.

[D'rek]

AFAIR, the Trygalle needed Cartographer to get into Dragnipur, and it seems very likely that Hood planted Cartographer on them for that very reason (or is that stated outright?)

[tiam]

D, on 30 May 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

AFAIR, the Trygalle needed Cartographer to get into Dragnipur, and it seems very likely that Hood planted Cartographer on them for that very reason (or is that stated outright?)

Actually I think it might be stated outright now that I think about it.