[Kilava]

Trake, on 20 May 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I agree that he is dogy as fuck. Do you think that he is symp dogy or partner scum dogy?

Hard to say.

For Scum partner with Spite:

His playstyle generally fits scum partner better than symp, being less involved etc.

Against Scum partner with Spite:

He would be taking a bit of a risk to save Spite, and given the tendency for town just to lynch whoever the failed lynch was on, not sure scum would see it as worthwhile. It is possible though, particularly given that it's potentially D-Day, he may be banking on just needing to get through today.

For Scum partner with Monok:

On the other hand, if he were partnered with Monok, the no lynch would put the focus more on Spite (again given towns tendency to go for people we fail lynches on, though the tendency does exist for good reason), and would be a clever move ether way. If there's a no lynch, Spite gets more of the focus. If there is a Monok swing Anth ends in a pretty good position. Only case it may work out badly is if Spite was lynched and came up inno, and even that's not too bad a result.

Against Scum partner with Monok:

He does vote him, and has put some pressure on him today (though ends up saying he'd rather go for Ruse anyhow). As I've said though, the vote is not the worst move ever from scum partner.
He also doesn't vote Spite. If he knew Spite was inno, it seems fairly possible he'd just have voted him. Then again, scum do gain from no-lynches regardless, and if he thinks Spite will just get lynched the next day it could be worth it.

For symp:

Deflects. Since he comes up inno it's less of a risk for symp, regardless of who the master is.
Could really be either one of their symps, but Spite seems the more obvious one, since symps don't want to vote their masters, and there's less benefit to a symp being involved in a scum lynch (as there could be in an Anth/Monok pairing).

Against symp:

He hasn't been that involved, though not all symps are.

It's pretty convoluted and I'm really not sure what I think is the most likely possibility at the moment, all options have possible drabacks...Most obvious seems Anth/Spite (with Anth either as symp or scum...leaning scum for playstyle, but symp would be more likely to risk not voting Spite, so could be either).

[Trake]

Kilava, on 20 May 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Trake, on 20 May 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I agree that he is dogy as fuck. Do you think that he is symp dogy or partner scum dogy?

Hard to say.

For Scum partner with Spite:

His playstyle generally fits scum partner better than symp, being less involved etc.

Against Scum partner with Spite:

He would be taking a bit of a risk to save Spite, and given the tendency for town just to lynch whoever the failed lynch was on, not sure scum would see it as worthwhile. It is possible though, particularly given that it's potentially D-Day, he may be banking on just needing to get through today.

For Scum partner with Monok:

On the other hand, if he were partnered with Monok, the no lynch would put the focus more on Spite (again given towns tendency to go for people we fail lynches on, though the tendency does exist for good reason), and would be a clever move ether way. If there's a no lynch, Spite gets more of the focus. If there is a Monok swing Anth ends in a pretty good position. Only case it may work out badly is if Spite was lynched and came up inno, and even that's not too bad a result.

Against Scum partner with Monok:

He does vote him, and has put some pressure on him today (though ends up saying he'd rather go for Ruse anyhow). As I've said though, the vote is not the worst move ever from scum partner.
He also doesn't vote Spite. If he knew Spite was inno, it seems fairly possible he'd just have voted him. Then again, scum do gain from no-lynches regardless, and if he thinks Spite will just get lynched the next day it could be worth it.

For symp:

Deflects. Since he comes up inno it's less of a risk for symp, regardless of who the master is.
Could really be either one of their symps, but Spite seems the more obvious one, since symps don't want to vote their masters, and there's less benefit to a symp being involved in a scum lynch (as there could be in an Anth/Monok pairing).

Against symp:

He hasn't been that involved, though not all symps are.

It's pretty convoluted and I'm really not sure what I think is the most likely possibility at the moment, all options have possible drabacks...Most obvious seems Anth/Spite (with Anth either as symp or scum...leaning scum for playstyle, but symp would be more likely to risk not voting Spite, so could be either).

Ruse see above on why I am less inclined to vote for Kilava. It is well thought out and covers all of the bases. If he is scum then he would deserve to win.

[Spite]

I'm at work, checking over the thread as I can. I get off in 2 hours and 25 minutes though. I'll be home then be able to play the rest of the evening which should give us plenty of time. I'll see if I can get a few posts in here and there until I get off.

[Monok Ochem]

failing miserably here, guys

[Ruse]

I'll have quite a bit of time before timeout. Onus is on people who haven't commented. Anthras, Spite, yourself monok, Paulus. It cannot just be Kilava, Trake and I.

[Denul]

Personally I think you're all scum and I'm the only inno.

I'm tossing up the value of voting someone for scummy behaviour (ie not helpful to town - Anthras and/or Spite) but I also feel like one of Kilava and Ruse is scum leading thread.

Right now I feel like I'd rather lose the game responding to scummy behaviour/poor play from town than lose the game for ignoring it.

Also I feel like there's something off about Trake's reaction to pretty much everything Ruse says. It's defensive and weird. Especially combined with the sucking up to Kilava.

[Spite]

Ruse, on 20 May 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I'll have quite a bit of time before timeout. Onus is on people who haven't commented. Anthras, Spite, yourself monok, Paulus. It cannot just be Kilava, Trake and I.

I've got about 45 more minutes of work, then about a 45 minute commute. I'll be on within 2 hours max, although I'm feeling fairly jaded about the way things have been going. I don't like how Kilava pushed so hard for me to hammer myself, saying it's the best action for town, and me having to wonder if he's being legitimately, or if he's scum trying to make me look stupid. He's claiming that I blew the game potentially by not hammering myself, but if I did hammer myself and town ends up losing anyway, or if I was tricked by scum, then I'm the one to blame either way. It's stupid. I've been looking all over and I still don't see anything that backs up him saying it's basic town play to have hammered themselves in that spot. I just don't see how being one person less town justifies the removal of one person less for scum to hide, ESPECIALLY when I know I'm town, even if no one else can know for sure. I chose to vote Kalse over Kilava because I felt Kilava more likely to be town, but after Friday night he's my biggest worry. I think it could be Kilava/Pallid/Anthras, and I hope to god that Ruse and Kilava aren't faking thief disagreements and that it's not Kilava and Ruse who's been fooling us this whole time. I will say though that I've read up briefly, and Ruse seems to have put in some major work this weekend, and seems fairly town, although scum could also want to be the ones investing so heavily. I say we wait until tonight and choose patiently and wisely.

[Trake]

Denul, on 20 May 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Personally I think you're all scum and I'm the only inno.

I'm tossing up the value of voting someone for scummy behaviour (ie not helpful to town - Anthras and/or Spite) but I also feel like one of Kilava and Ruse is scum leading thread.

Right now I feel like I'd rather lose the game responding to scummy behaviour/poor play from town than lose the game for ignoring it.

Also I feel like there's something off about Trake's reaction to pretty much everything Ruse says. It's defensive and weird. Especially combined with the sucking up to Kilava.

Obviously you haven't spent any time reading Ruses posts. Then man has serious issues. It isn't so much sucking up as pointing out someone who makes nice logical posts so that Ruse can develop as a player and person. Perhaps he will grow spiritually who knows he might want to be a President of a country or something.

[Trake]

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

I'm at work, checking over the thread as I can. I get off in 2 hours and 25 minutes though. I'll be home then be able to play the rest of the evening which should give us plenty of time. I'll see if I can get a few posts in here and there until I get off.

Monok Ochem, on 20 May 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

failing miserably here, guys

Denul, on 20 May 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Personally I think you're all scum and I'm the only inno.

I'm tossing up the value of voting someone for scummy behaviour (ie not helpful to town - Anthras and/or Spite) but I also feel like one of Kilava and Ruse is scum leading thread.

Right now I feel like I'd rather lose the game responding to scummy behaviour/poor play from town than lose the game for ignoring it.

Also I feel like there's something off about Trake's reaction to pretty much everything Ruse says. It's defensive and weird. Especially combined with the sucking up to Kilava.

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Ruse, on 20 May 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I'll have quite a bit of time before timeout. Onus is on people who haven't commented. Anthras, Spite, yourself monok, Paulus. It cannot just be Kilava, Trake and I.

I've got about 45 more minutes of work, then about a 45 minute commute. I'll be on within 2 hours max, although I'm feeling fairly jaded about the way things have been going. I don't like how Kilava pushed so hard for me to hammer myself, saying it's the best action for town, and me having to wonder if he's being legitimately, or if he's scum trying to make me look stupid. He's claiming that I blew the game potentially by not hammering myself, but if I did hammer myself and town ends up losing anyway, or if I was tricked by scum, then I'm the one to blame either way. It's stupid. I've been looking all over and I still don't see anything that backs up him saying it's basic town play to have hammered themselves in that spot. I just don't see how being one person less town justifies the removal of one person less for scum to hide, ESPECIALLY when I know I'm town, even if no one else can know for sure. I chose to vote Kalse over Kilava because I felt Kilava more likely to be town, but after Friday night he's my biggest worry. I think it could be Kilava/Pallid/Anthras, and I hope to god that Ruse and Kilava aren't faking thief disagreements and that it's not Kilava and Ruse who's been fooling us this whole time. I will say though that I've read up briefly, and Ruse seems to have put in some major work this weekend, and seems fairly town, although scum could also want to be the ones investing so heavily. I say we wait until tonight and choose patiently and wisely.

All we need now is a one line post from Pallid and anthras and we shall be complete.

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 4. 27 hours 40 minutes remaining.


8 players still alive: Anthras, Denul, Kilava, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Spite, Ruse, Trake

5 votes to lynch, 4 to go to night.

1 vote Anthras: Kilava
1 vote Pallid: Trake
1 vote Kilava: Ruse

Players not voted: Anthras, Denul, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Spite 

[Kilava]

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Ruse, on 20 May 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I'll have quite a bit of time before timeout. Onus is on people who haven't commented. Anthras, Spite, yourself monok, Paulus. It cannot just be Kilava, Trake and I.

if I did hammer myself and town ends up losing anyway, or if I was tricked by scum, then I'm the one to blame either way. It's stupid. I've been looking all over and I still don't see anything that backs up him saying it's basic town play to have hammered themselves in that spot. I just don't see how being one person less town justifies the removal of one person less for scum to hide, ESPECIALLY when I know I'm town, even if no one else can know for sure.

You wouldn't be to blame if you hammered yourself and scum lost because that's the best town play in that situation.

All you need to do to back it up is think about it. It's just logically better play.

One person less but the same amount of days till D-day = one less distraction/potential scum/statistically better chance of hitting scum.

But the main argument is not simply mathematical. It is the fact that having you around today is inevitably going to be distracting, because no lynches look very suspicious, because for town, lynching is better than not lynching. Removing that factor is good for town. You knowing you're town doesn't even come into it. If you were town, the best thing you could've done for the team is to provide the CF information instead of leaving us without it, and the information it could have given us being left unverified. That is not complicated play, that is simple mafia.

I feel like I've spent half this game explaining fucking simple concepts and well established norms, only for people to turn around and go "wait, really? I'm not sure..."

Why even bother. Town seems intent on playing badly.

[Kilava]

Denul, on 20 May 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Right now I feel like I'd rather lose the game responding to scummy behaviour/poor play from town than lose the game for ignoring it.

Very much in the same boat.

I just can't see how we can ignore something like a no lynch that happens because one person fucks off leaving their vote elsewhere and another chooses not to hammer himself. If we lose because town decided to play like that, there's sod all to be done about it, we have to follow up the strongest indication of scum, and at the moment, my opinion is that the no lynch is the most sound evidence we've had by a clear margin.

[Spite]

Kilava, on 20 May 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Ruse, on 20 May 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I'll have quite a bit of time before timeout. Onus is on people who haven't commented. Anthras, Spite, yourself monok, Paulus. It cannot just be Kilava, Trake and I.

if I did hammer myself and town ends up losing anyway, or if I was tricked by scum, then I'm the one to blame either way. It's stupid. I've been looking all over and I still don't see anything that backs up him saying it's basic town play to have hammered themselves in that spot. I just don't see how being one person less town justifies the removal of one person less for scum to hide, ESPECIALLY when I know I'm town, even if no one else can know for sure.

You wouldn't be to blame if you hammered yourself and scum lost because that's the best town play in that situation.

All you need to do to back it up is think about it. It's just logically better play.

One person less but the same amount of days till D-day = one less distraction/potential scum/statistically better chance of hitting scum.

But the main argument is not simply mathematical. It is the fact that having you around today is inevitably going to be distracting, because no lynches look very suspicious, because for town, lynching is better than not lynching. Removing that factor is good for town. You knowing you're town doesn't even come into it. If you were town, the best thing you could've done for the team is to provide the CF information instead of leaving us without it, and the information it could have given us being left unverified. That is not complicated play, that is simple mafia.

I feel like I've spent half this game explaining fucking simple concepts and well established norms, only for people to turn around and go "wait, really? I'm not sure..."

Why even bother. Town seems intent on playing badly.

Well I've obviously not played enough to grasp this concept because I just don't agree. I know that just because I know I'm town doesn't mean anyone else can know for sure, but the opposite of that is that I can't know for sure that you were town. I almost went right ahead and hammered, but then things started just sounding fishy. I had to weigh it like this. If I had hammered , then true, my CF (assuming town for the sake of argument) would have narrowed down the number of people for scum to hide. I get that part, but I didn't see the part where me being alive, therefore having one more town alive, and according to you wouldn't matter to the numbers. I just figure one extra town is far better than one less, but I guess I can understand the math you gave, assuming the symp isn't already dead. I felt the symp almost had to be Thyr, but I also felt it could of been Ryadd, symping for Pallid. On the other hand, if I had hammered myself, and it turns out you are scum, then I just made the most stupid play ever. I just couldn't risk it given the situation. Had you said it in one post, I was considering it heavily, but you pushed a little too hard for it. It just scared me into over-thinking it, and I still feel the same way.

It just feels like you're complaining about our general lack of mafia intelligence, but at the same time you're just taking advantage of those with far less experience. I don't mind admitting I'm not the smartest or even above average, but I do enjoy playing and have put in as much time as I could. I think you're manipulating the heck out of us, or at least me. I just feel like you are our best bet for scum by far. Kalse made cases against you. Mockra said you some of the same things. I can't remember if Eldat ever said anything along the same lines , but I'll check. We have a few of us who are worried about you, and a couple of the now dead townies. I may have not played well, and I may he ignorant of the most complex of mafia theory, but I almost died because I almost let you talk me into killing myself, and I now believe nearly sure that you're one of the killers and if I go out with another mistake, I want it to be the one I felt in my gut was the best shot. I hope we are able to lynch you today, and if you are indeed scum I'm giving us good odds at finding your partner. If you're not scum, I'll be more surprised than I've been yet in this game, and it'll feel really good to know you were scum giving that speech you made at my huge mistake of not hammering myself. If you're not, I'll still feel good knowing it seemed like the hands-down best option.

[Anthras]

Ruse has to be scum. Probably symp because he's more outspoken than most, but scum nonetheless. It might be best to look at who he has yet to cast suspicion on to find out exactly who he is covering for.

Ruse, on 20 May 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

What is the point of Anthras playing in this game? Just reading this post pisses me off. 4. First off he is ignorant of the time left in the day. It is important for town to know this, to know when their vote is needed.

Anthras, on 17 May 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

1. Having read through the thread quickly, it seems that the case on Spite can just as easily be used against most of the low posters in the game, myself included.


2. As for Monok getting some heat, it is possible he's just a coasting scum, but he's playing it cool and to be honest it doesn't come off as scummy.

3. I feel like he is likely town, but I suppose he could be scum if he really doesn't give a shit. If we need to push a low posting lynch just so we can get a lynch before the day's end, I suppose we can do it.

4. But I figure we have about 8-10 hours left in the day (correct me if I'm wrong), so there's no need to push this quickly.

5. Now that I have some time on my hands, I'd like to take a closer look at Ruse. Several of his posts have come off as strange, especially those trying to push the idea that Kilava is scum (which I find doubtful at this point, since we semi-tested this with the Kalse lynch). I'll gather some of these posts in a bit after I get some food and read through the thread again.

So point 1. The chosen ones for the day could be made about everyone in this game so far barring Kilava and myself. just cause some players have less posts than others. 15 posts or 36 posts after a week in real time and 3 game days is not enough. Not nearly enough. Town are fucking themselves over by doing this.

Point 2. He doesn't see Monok as scummy.

point 3. Again likely town but will vote to get a lynch. IF THIS IS THE CASE THEN WHY NOT VOTE SPITE WHO HAD THE MOST VOTES ON HIM?

Mentioned already about the ignorance of the time..

Point 5. So we have 4 hours or less, and he wants to build a case on a new candidate. All that would do is stall this lynch. I do not think it is good town play at all, and he hasn't had much of a "presence" to actually get people to vote his way.


Going back and reading Kilava's summary I could definitely see Anthras as a Kilava partner OR one part of a scum team that doesn't include Kilava. Ie Anthras and Eldat/Pallid/Denul.

Not sure what you're trying to pull with this one, fella. I have already explained that I did not vote then because I actually had time to play and could drop a vote when I felt like it was the best decision. The time thing? That was corrected almost immediately after I posted, less than a minute after the quoted post. The new case was built on you because it was the first time throughout the week that I had time to actually contribute. A good thing too, because you're clearly trying to lead the thread with your continued bullshit.

Ruse, on 20 May 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Anthras, on 18 May 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

I'd vote either way if we need to. Might be best to go for Monok seeing as he doesn't have any substance to his posts, so will leave no evidence for scummy activity. Spite hasn't done anything too suspect, but at least adds something to the game with his posts, which might actually provide some evidence if scum, or insight if town.

remove vote

vote Monok


just in case something comes up. I'll be here for another half an hour.

edit removed vote

Now with little to no time left Anthras votes for Monok. He says Spite hasn't done anything suspect and that he adds to the game. I disagree. Both Spite and Monok are the same in terms of play this game and he should have added to the larger train. you could say he has upped his activity whilst Spite has had heat and that would make Spite stand a litte more circumspect but Anthras really stands out towards the end of day.

If you disagree, then you're either scum covering for Monok, or a fool. Monok has, when active, expressed his disinterest with the game and provided nothing of value. why you think Monok is on the same terms as ANYONE in this game escapes me.

Ruse, on 20 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

I am voting Anthras so that he gets his ass online and gives us some content but I think the main person who should be lynched today is Kilava. 100%.

You're trying to lead the thread. Well, either you or Kilava, but where Kilava makes sense most of the time, you tend to be nonsensical.

Kilava, on 20 May 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Ruse, on 20 May 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

As Kilava is mine.

Not only is he top choice for scum he is also linked to many people and would give us a ton of information. The bad thing is that we would have to find his partner afterwards. That will be a mess but buys us a few days.

This is potentially D-day, meaning purely finding scum is imperative, and how much information someone might give if they are scum is not really the best factor to be looking at, at this point, imo.

You pointed out my post that explained my vote on Kalse earlier in the game (as a tenuous tie to Kilava that may have given info while getting rid of a low poster), and yet here you are arguing for the same with less reason. We have a few good cases here, one aimed at myself, but it sure as hell beats the random early day crap pitched by Ruse.

Denul, on 20 May 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Personally I think you're all scum and I'm the only inno.

I'm tossing up the value of voting someone for scummy behaviour (ie not helpful to town - Anthras and/or Spite) but I also feel like one of Kilava and Ruse is scum leading thread.

Right now I feel like I'd rather lose the game responding to scummy behaviour/poor play from town than lose the game for ignoring it.

Also I feel like there's something off about Trake's reaction to pretty much everything Ruse says. It's defensive and weird. Especially combined with the sucking up to Kilava.

Why are you siding with Ruse over Kilava here? Christ, how does Kilava keep getting heat for playing the game properly and coherently? Ruse may have similar game presence (though never when it is most needed), but he's been trying to direct the thread with nonsensical cases. Trake may seem somewhat defensive, but he really should, lest someone else buy into Ruse's logic.

Vote Ruse


I'm sure I'll need to respond to some other posts directed at me. I'll get to them in a few minutes.

[Spite]

Kilava, on 20 May 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Denul, on 20 May 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Right now I feel like I'd rather lose the game responding to scummy behaviour/poor play from town than lose the game for ignoring it.

Very much in the same boat.

I just can't see how we can ignore something like a no lynch that happens because one person fucks off leaving their vote elsewhere and another chooses not to hammer himself. If we lose because town decided to play like that, there's sod all to be done about it, we have to follow up the strongest indication of scum, and at the moment, my opinion is that the no lynch is the most sound evidence we've had by a clear margin.

You and Anthras BOTH screwed around not wanting to vote for me until it looked like there was no choice. You finally swap to me, Anthras claims he didn't make it back in time but probably just didn't want to be the hammer, Monok drops the potential hammer vote a while after the day ended and said he didn't realize it was too late, and you go all out trying to convince me to kill myself. That entire scenario was messed up, and I'm the least worrisome of it, and you're focusing on me? You're doing a complete 180 from how you played the game at first and now. Are you so close to your win that you're willing to keep saying it was the wrong play to not kill myself? I'm not messing with you when I say I honestly can't believe you're trying to convince me I should have killed myself, when that single action could save the game for town. You've changed the way you've played and thought here near the end. I don't like it, Kilava. I wanted to trust you the whole game. I helped sway the lynch to Kalse over you because I felt you were more likely town, but now I just can't trust you. I'm hoping we lynch you, but if we don't and we still lynch a killer and you are part of that, then maybe I could believe you, but you could always throw your partner under the bus. We should of listened to everyone else that worried over you and are now dead.

[Spite]

Anthras sure has a hard-on for Ruse.

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 4. 25 hours 30 minutes remaining.


8 players still alive: Anthras, Denul, Kilava, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Spite, Ruse, Trake

5 votes to lynch, 4 to go to night.

1 vote Anthras: Kilava
1 vote Pallid: Trake
1 vote Kilava: Ruse
1 vote Ruse: Anthras

Players not voted: Denul, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Spite  

[Kilava]

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Well I've obviously not played enough to grasp this concept because I just don't agree.

Obviously not then

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Well I've obviously not played enough to grasp this concept because I just don't agree. I know that just because I know I'm town doesn't mean anyone else can know for sure, but the opposite of that is that I can't know for sure that you were town. I almost went right ahead and hammered, but then things started just sounding fishy. I had to weigh it like this. If I had hammered , then true, my CF (assuming town for the sake of argument) would have narrowed down the number of people for scum to hide. I get that part, but I didn't see the part where me being alive, therefore having one more town alive, and according to you wouldn't matter to the numbers. I just figure one extra town is far better than one less, but I guess I can understand the math you gave, assuming the symp isn't already dead. I felt the symp almost had to be Thyr, but I also felt it could of been Ryadd, symping for Pallid. On the other hand, if I had hammered myself, and it turns out you are scum, then I just made the most stupid play ever. I just couldn't risk it given the situation. Had you said it in one post, I was considering it heavily, but you pushed a little too hard for it. It just scared me into over-thinking it, and I still feel the same way.

With two scum we lose at 4 players.

8 players: One day and night leaves us with 6. Two days and nights leaves us with 4. We get two lynches before we lose.
7 players: One day and night leaves us with 5. Two days and nights leaves us with 3. We get two lynches before we lose.

Hence odd even rule.

It sometimes doesn't apply (games with varying/uncertain numbers of kills etc), but in games like this, it's called a rule for a reason.

I don't see why it would be stupid play to hammer yourself, even if I was scum. Because I said to? Town would still be much less distracted and have the CF

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Well I've obviously not played enough to grasp this concept because I just don't agree. I know that just because I know I'm town doesn't mean anyone else can know for sure, but the opposite of that is that I can't know for sure that you were town. I almost went right ahead and hammered, but then things started just sounding fishy. I had to weigh it like this. If I had hammered , then true, my CF (assuming town for the sake of argument) would have narrowed down the number of people for scum to hide. I get that part, but I didn't see the part where me being alive, therefore having one more town alive, and according to you wouldn't matter to the numbers. I just figure one extra town is far better than one less, but I guess I can understand the math you gave, assuming the symp isn't already dead. I felt the symp almost had to be Thyr, but I also felt it could of been Ryadd, symping for Pallid. On the other hand, if I had hammered myself, and it turns out you are scum, then I just made the most stupid play ever. I just couldn't risk it given the situation. Had you said it in one post, I was considering it heavily, but you pushed a little too hard for it. It just scared me into over-thinking it, and I still feel the same way.

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

It just feels like you're complaining about our general lack of mafia intelligence

Certainly. Not trying to be a dick about it, but if people don't get called on bad play they don't improve. And it's just a bit frustrating to be attacked because people take issue with lines of play that are well established, and to feel like people are going off in the wrong direction over things like that.

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

but at the same time you're just taking advantage of those with far less experience.

How? By actually taking the time to explain things like the odd-even rule? If I wanted to take advantage of poor play in this game, I would be coasting along taking advantage of the low poster camouflage, and letting half-baked cases run riot instead of calling them.

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

but I do enjoy playing and have put in as much time as I could.

I'm glad you enjoy it.

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

I think you're manipulating the heck out of us, or at least me.

You think I'm the one manipulating you? Not the person who kept you alive as a distraction to town, for example?

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

but I almost died because I almost let you talk me into killing myself

And that would have been most beneficial for the town. While staying alive is important to town (after all, if you're dying, and it's because of lynch, that suggests you've done something to draw a lynch, and hence been distracting), it should not, in every scenario, be their foremost goal (particularly as RI), or ultimate goal of all their play. You are putting too much weight on the fact that you would have died, and from your POV in terms of numbers we would have lost an inno, when actually that is not the most important thing.

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

I now believe nearly sure that you're one of the killers and if I go out with another mistake, I want it to be the one I felt in my gut was the best shot. I hope we are able to lynch you today, and if you are indeed scum I'm giving us good odds at finding your partner. If you're not scum, I'll be more surprised than I've been yet in this game, and it'll feel really good to know you were scum giving that speech you made at my huge mistake of not hammering myself. If you're not, I'll still feel good knowing it seemed like the hands-down best option.

Not hammering yourself was a total mistake, from a town POV. I'm sorry to say that I'll have to surprise you but I am town. Are you sure that you don't just dislike me now because I wanted you to self hammer, and that seems counter intuitive to you?

[Kilava]

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

You and Anthras BOTH screwed around not wanting to vote for me until it looked like there was no choice.

I made it quite clear I would be able to switch, and also that people ought to bear in mind the time if they couldn't be around, and that a no lynch was the worst potential outcome. Not really comparable.

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

Anthras claims he didn't make it back in time but probably just didn't want to be the hammer

And you seriously don't have a huge problem with that? You're letting the fact that it was your own lynch blind you. Surely you don't disagree with the idea that lynching is better than not lynching for the innos?

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

That entire scenario was messed up, and I'm the least worrisome of it, and you're focusing on me?

No you're not. Lynching is better than not for innos. So, if a lynch fails, it throws a lot of suspicion on the person who was looking like being lynched. Especially if they could've been lynched but weren't because of someone else. Why did that someone not lynch them, when lynching is better than not for innos?

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

Are you so close to your win that you're willing to keep saying it was the wrong play to not kill myself? I'm not messing with you when I say I honestly can't believe you're trying to convince me I should have killed myself, when that single action could save the game for town.

It makes literally no difference to the D-day numbers. In the vast majority of cases, your CF is going to be vastly more useful to us than having you around is. Just look at today. How much is focused on you? And of course it was going to be, because no lynches are really worth noting.

Please logically justify how having you around is more helpful. The extra inno you keep talking about makes zero difference, and in fact statistically hinders us. Do you really think having someone around who had a no lynch in really suspicious circumstances is going to help the town, more than having a CF and being able to move onto other things?

[Anthras]

I've gone through the thread to track Ruse, and more importantly to track who he has deliberately ignored. It's safe to say that Ruse has cast suspicion on every player in the game at this point.

Here's my sticky note post list.

Ruse mention:
post# suspect name.
106 Trake
107 Denul Killer
107 Ryadd+Pallid
107 Thyr
178 Denul,Trake,Spite,Thyrllan,Serc,Ryadd
299 Kilava
302 Pallid+Kilava
416 Monok [gets a brief mention]
594 Anthras
599 Eldat

Not much to get from the list at the end of the day. Monok got the least attention, but a brief mention as a possible scum. If I had to, I'd wager Monok is Ruse's scum partner, most likely the killer in hiding. As to the other partner, it is hard to tell purely from post mentions. Even ignoring Monok's potential tie to Ruse (it is a weak tie, relying on a briefer accusation than all other accusations-- ridiculous and hilarious!), Ruse has accused everyone... Some minor cases, some major (Trake, Kilava, Pallid). Ruse is clearly looking to confuse and misdirect at every opportunity.