[Ruse]

Mockra, on 14 May 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Mockra, on 14 May 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

What really tickled my interest was the way you voted Kalse and Kalse voted you. Seems like an abrupt attempt at distancing. However, both of you were a little goofy about it (particulary Kalse) as if it was Day 1 shenanigans. Makes me wonder you know.

My vote on Kalse is perfectly serious. At this point in time I think he's the most likely scum. He perfectly fits the profile of a killer trying to remain under the radar, to the extent of actively avoiding engaging in discussion.

Kalses vote on me seemed OMGUS, and his justification verges on making no sense.

For someone so serious about their vote, you've done little to push it. Throwing out other cases, ideas, etc, are great ways to contribute, usually at the expense of a successful lynch of your prime suspect. Harassing Thyr throughout the day dug his grave, but very little pressure was thrown on Kalse. And my thoughts with Kalse was that he was sympish, making you the master and making it interesting how you voted for him. You really think he is the killer? (rhetorical question btw)

Right this hits the nail on the head for me. He has been like this all game. he has pointed at me most of the game but always went elsewhere with his votes. Now why am I still alive? Scum think I'm lynchable so they've kept me around. That is why Kilava hasn't pushed for my lynch. Now we have a potential D day I feel that he will try to do so. I've been consistent with my voting and I really want Kilava lynched. I've at least votes.that way in the past. More to come but out of time

[Kilava]

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

One reason we haven't voted Kilava is because we are trying to pair him with someone but haven't actually had a reason build on him to see who defends him and where votes lie. What I will find bad is that if we lynch him and he does turn out to be scum then his partner could be a multitude of people due to all his interactions. It literally could be any one of you.

Yeah, I totally haven't been under any pressure that could've drawn a defense.

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

The people he has built cases on and pointed suspicions at have died and have been innocent, its easy for him to point fingers cause he knows who scum is. Say scum turn out to be Paulus and Trake then out wouldn't surprise me if Kilava was the symp because he had been the most dominant figure of this game.

Being wrong does not equal scum. It is a little interesting you try to use NK's against someone though. After all, it's the scum who decide who the NK's point towards.

Though I'm not exactly sure why you think that if I were scum I'd want to kill the people I've built cases on and pointed suspicions at. Them showing up and showing that I was wrong is hardly something scum would want. Not only that, but as scum it would mean I'd have to shift targets, instead of just sticking with the people I'd pointed fingers at before and coasting along without needing to provide new information on who I felt was scummy.

This argument just doesn't make sense.

It's easy for me to point fingers?
And yet, apparently it's scummy that the people I've pointed fingers have died and shown up inno, so that hardly seems like the easiest place for scum to be, or what they'd want to be doing.

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

I don't want to paint partners because we haven't got the first killer yet. Each read through yields Kilava as the killer

That's funny since you were quite happy to go for Trake yesterday rather than me, even when I pointed out that it made no sense.

Ruse, on 17 May 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Kilava, on 17 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

If you think I am definite scum and are not sure about my partner you should be voting me.

I COULD JUST SAY FUCK ALL AND THE DAY WILL TIME OUT WITH OUT A LYNCH, HOW IS IT SCUMMY TO ACTUALLY WANT TO LYNCH SOMEONE?

I'M DONE.

I WON'T BE ACTIVE LATER AND NO ONE HAS DISCUSSED ANYTHING SO FAR TODAY.

Remember?

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

One reason we keep lynching town us because of Kilava making good points that in hindsight were wrong

Equating being wrong with being scum has always been bullshit, and is dodgy as fuck.

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

You. You are shifting focus. Directing town. Who made you leader and why should we keep following you?

No one made me the leader you tosspot. If people followed me, maybe it's because they agreed with me. And maybe that's because I actually try to make cases that make sense, instead of choosing a person and twisting everything I possibly can into something scummy. You should try it some time.

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Mockra, on 14 May 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

What really tickled my interest was the way you voted Kalse and Kalse voted you. Seems like an abrupt attempt at distancing. However, both of you were a little goofy about it (particulary Kalse) as if it was Day 1 shenanigans. Makes me wonder you know.

My vote on Kalse is perfectly serious. At this point in time I think he's the most likely scum. He perfectly fits the profile of a killer trying to remain under the radar, to the extent of actively avoiding engaging in discussion.

Kalses vote on me seemed OMGUS, and his justification verges on making no sense.

How can this be a stood vote when 4 other players were playing the same way?

I felt that Kalse was the worst offender, because he seemed to be actively avoiding discussion and seemed to be around when the discussion was happening. Much like Monok, who you'll notice I actually mentioned as being similar, and also went for, but let's just ignore that...The fact that other people are also playing scummy in a similar manner doesn't make something less scummy.

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

Mockra, on 14 May 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Mockra, on 14 May 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

What really tickled my interest was the way you voted Kalse and Kalse voted you. Seems like an abrupt attempt at distancing. However, both of you were a little goofy about it (particulary Kalse) as if it was Day 1 shenanigans. Makes me wonder you know.

My vote on Kalse is perfectly serious. At this point in time I think he's the most likely scum. He perfectly fits the profile of a killer trying to remain under the radar, to the extent of actively avoiding engaging in discussion.

Kalses vote on me seemed OMGUS, and his justification verges on making no sense.

For someone so serious about their vote, you've done little to push it. Throwing out other cases, ideas, etc, are great ways to contribute, usually at the expense of a successful lynch of your prime suspect. Harassing Thyr throughout the day dug his grave, but very little pressure was thrown on Kalse. And my thoughts with Kalse was that he was sympish, making you the master and making it interesting how you voted for him. You really think he is the killer? (rhetorical question btw)

Right this hits the nail on the head for me. He has been like this all game. he has pointed at me most of the game but always went elsewhere with his votes. Now why am I still alive? Scum think I'm lynchable so they've kept me around. That is why Kilava hasn't pushed for my lynch. Now we have a potential D day I feel that he will try to do so. I've been consistent with my voting and I really want Kilava lynched. I've at least votes.that way in the past. More to come but out of time

Another suggestion as to why you're alive would be that you're scum. Or that the scum simply thought other kills were more beneficial.

Maybe you're still alive because you're causing a distraction by focusing on someone they know is inno. The thing with kill speculation is that it's just as easy to twist it to suggest I'm inno as it is to suggest I'm scum, but at the end of the day, it's just speculation.

You seem to make out that I've called you my number one target or something, which simply isn't true.

You accuse me of pre-emptive defense but say "Now we have a potential D day I feel that he will try to do so". I've mentioned you as scummy in the past. You throwing that out there is a really nice way of pre-emptively defending if I did push you, since it attacks me too...

Also, you've completely ignored my response to Mockra where I laid out in detail exactly how much I did push Kalse.

It's really great that I end up re-iterating things over and over because people are happy just to throw the same crap out, completely ignoring the times where I've addressed it, and just hoping that maybe people won't remember that and just go with it.

[Kilava]

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

his long posts and high and mighty attitude makes him hard to engage and get a read on.

Also the fuck is this reasoning?

Long posts make me hard to engage and get a read on? I guess that's why it's so easy to gauge the low posters then.

[Kilava]

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Mockra, on 14 May 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

What really tickled my interest was the way you voted Kalse and Kalse voted you. Seems like an abrupt attempt at distancing. However, both of you were a little goofy about it (particulary Kalse) as if it was Day 1 shenanigans. Makes me wonder you know.

Kalse as Kilava symp fits this scenario

Except that the idea of us being a little goofy about it was promptly completely contradicted the next day.

Do you actually think about what you post, or just try and tie in anything that looks remotely relevant?

[Ruse]

Before reading anything else I call bullshit. Kalse and Thyr were lynched. Yes Mockra was night killed but don't you dare think I'm solely using night kills. Your clever enough to manipulate things the way you want them but don't be insulting. I've seen many scum kill their biggest threats and attackers. You've kept me around because you think I am lynch worthy and not able to builds cases as well as you. People will see that.

[Ruse]

You're too good. I read your responses and agree with what you say. Mostly. I'm only partly a ways through day one on the case on you so far. I find it hard to put what I'm thinking into words. I cannot help but find you scummy even though you are likeable.

[Kilava]

Kind of amusing that you say scum are keeping you around to D-day for an easy lynch. Just interesting to note that the idea is on your mind when your behaviour towards me can fit into exactly the same category, in regards to your suddenly going elsewhere yesterday even though I was apparently definite scum.

[Kilava]

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Mockra, on 14 May 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Kilava, I wonder why you are voting Kalse when the suspicion was that he was signalling you. Destroying evidence?


I also find Pallid's response to my accusation over the top, OMGUS. It was the first vote on him, with no following train, so why the intentional misunderstanding of what I was getting at (that RE was signaling his master Pallid).

Meh, there are signalling accusations flying left right and centre atm, and those kinds of cases are usually pretty shaky to begin with. If I was scum, it seems a bit stupid to draw attention to Kalse if he had been signalling me. Also, if I was scum and thought he was signalling me, why would I try and get him lynched at this point? I mean, I'd have to be pretty worried about the connection to think it was worth ditching a symp over, and I haven't really seen much pressure for it at all, so why would I be?

To throw us off the scent. You seem to defend yourself all the time. Preempting cases against you.

How is this preemptive? Its directly responding to Mockra.

[Kilava]

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Serc, on 14 May 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

I'd noted that too - although I also see that she has me down as keeping my head down, hence scummy.

Meh, personally you're not currently that high on my suspects list, and are floating around the same level as a lot of people. I don't feel like I've got much of a read on you. For number of posts you've drawn very little heat though. The earlier accusation on being middle of the road didn't seem totally unjustified either.

In terms of keeping your head down, you haven't seemed to be doing it so determinedly as Kalse. Monok Ochem is another that I noticed. There are also still a bunch of people who really haven't posted much at all.

Adding monok to his kalse, Serc, ruse list.

Ruse, on 18 May 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Like a future set up

They were playing very similar. What is so scummy about pointing that out? If I think one is scummy, you're saying it's really wierd that I think the guy playing really similar is too? Sorry for having/voicing more than one suspicion. I forgot that was a list and therefore scummy, setting people up for future lynches...

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Wow.

If Thyr is faking I want to give that guy an Oscar.

I'd be willing to vote for Denul, Trake, Spite, Thyrllan, Serc, Ryadd for all different reasons. Nothing big though as it's only day one. Denul for initial vote that started this mess, Trake for his aggressive play when confronted, Spite for coasting along voting with the flow not adding much, thyrllan in case signalling was right, Serc for seemingly.fake symping me, he had been too agreeable with me and follows my vote, and Ryadd because I think he is the actual symp.

[Kilava]

Ruse, on 19 May 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Before reading anything else I call bullshit. Kalse and Thyr were lynched. Yes Mockra was night killed but don't you dare think I'm solely using night kills. Your clever enough to manipulate things the way you want them but don't be insulting. I've seen many scum kill their biggest threats and attackers. You've kept me around because you think I am lynch worthy and not able to builds cases as well as you. People will see that.

I didn't say you were only using NK's. Hence my point that being wrong doesn't mean being scum.

You seem to think it is both scummy to get someone lynched and have them turn up inno, but also say that it is easy for scum to put themselves into that position by pointing fingers.

You accuse me of preemptively defending while you are actually doing it strongly.

You don't want to go for partners before getting the first killer except that's exactly what you wanted to do yesterday.

You are completely contradictory at every turn. Is there any behaviour you haven't called scummy yet? I can't see how you can possibly have an actual opinion on what you think is scummy, or it wouldn't keep turning out that you've done exactly the same as what you're accusing people over. You're just making shit up as you go along.

This post has been edited by Kilava: 19 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

[Ruse]

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

What I find odd Ruse, is that you seem to think that the Denul vote is suspicious (in that you think it's fake symping). But at the same time you discount the possibility of just regular symping, which seems the more common tactic and the more likely case.

Personally, Thyrs vote looks like a joke vote to me. Maybe symping, maybe not. In a way, he's unlucky the game went serious quickly, because normally we have way more joke vote stuff. I guess this is also the reason people are getting paranoid about any avatar banter.

Though on a meta note, it would be cool if we could get into the habit of not dropping joke votes etc, to generally make it harder for scum.

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Also, there's no need to vote for yourself at this stage. We've got like 8 hours, and there's only 2 votes required to lynch you. You should only really vote yourself if it's totally necessary to get a lynch, so at the end of the day if it looks unlikely that it will be possible otherwise. In this case, that seems very unlikely to happen.

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

Thyrllan, on 14 May 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Sorry dude, but the killers already know each other. They get off thread communications.

M&P mafia usually works as a small group of scum who know each other (symp knows killers, killers almost never know symp), vs a large group of town who don't know anything about peoples alignment.

Also, your method is going to be biased towards people with more/longer posts.

Oh right. So you think that Ruse and Serc are not the killers then? But if killers don't know the symp then Trake could still be the symp, right? So I think then that we should lynch Trake because he would still be scum.

Vote Trake

I'm pretty unsure on Ruse. His initial vote on Trake was kind of weird, as was some of the logic following it.
Serc has been very low key, which is probably the most suspicious thing about him.
Trake could be the symp. He came on and played pretty aggressively, drew attention. Ruse earlier accused him of immediately coming on pointing fingers, which could fit with symp. But since symps show up as inno, there's not that much point voting him for it. Also he has been drawing people into the game and getting reactions, which is usually good for the town. The most suspicious thing about him remains some of his earlier over-reactions. Seems to have quieted down somewhat, which could be because he got some pressure for being obnoxious, or could just be because he doesn't have anything he feels like arguing about atm.

Currently I'm more inclined to go for the people who seem to be trying to keep their heads down. Since day one can have pretty shaky or random lynches, and often the more vocal people are targets just because there is info on them, scum often do keep their heads down, more than on other days even. Of the people you listed, Serc would probably fit that profile closest.

It's why I'm voting Kalse. He's been keeping his head down, and doing it in a manner that seems artificial to me.

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

Also worth noting for Ruse is that his and Kalse's votes on Thyr were in pretty quick succession (11 minutes apart). Both seem to be "voting to get a lynch" even though there was a lot of time left and both have other people they would rather vote. Serc also hopped on a little afterwards (22 minutes after Kalse).

Worth noting, as it moved the lynch from quit open to quite decided, and it's always worth looking at the point where that happens.

The votes:

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Trake, on 14 May 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Clearly! That is exactly what I am trying to do. I will vote for Thyr to get a lynch but I don't have to agree with Trake's logic, I don't think Trake thinks Thyr will turn out to be scum.

I do think that thy is scum he is trying to hard to try to be a total newb to actually be a newb. It is obvious that you do not think logically when it comes to mafia at all so there is no way that you will ever agree with my logic.

Oh is there logic within your posts? I fail to see that.

Vote Thyrllan

Kalse, on 14 May 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Remove vote

Vote Thyrllan

Well I don't have time to be anything other than sheeple at the moment but it fits in with my current thoughts anyway even though I would really like to lynch the black cat.

Serc, on 14 May 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Are you seriously wanting to be lynched on day 1? You may as well just PM PS and drop out at this point, you're playing as not having read thread at all. Look. PS Posted a summary.

I have serious patience issues with people playing thick.

Remove vote

Vote Thyrllan


Edit: speeling

Mockra, on 15 May 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Ok, let me try again, since emotion keeps interjecting itself into the arguments, which is part of what makes mafia fun, right

This is a simple meat and potatoes game.

This means town has to rely on its own logic and arguing prowess to gain a consensus and eliminate scum via lynch.

Scum have several advantages to make up for their lacking numbers: lover pair, a symp who CF's town and thus can spread confusion and discord, and the NK.

Now when I joined mafia while back, the chief method of hunting down scum in these type of games involved looking for fuck-ups. Notorious examples reinforced this method, such as a person talking about town as if they were not one themselves. Moreover, even in more complex games, screwing up allowed the capture and destruction of powerful players trying to look normal and mundane.

Part of the fun, and problem, of this method is the assumption that playing scummy is the primary domain of scum. Unfortunately, this proves true nearly as much as randomly lynching eventually hits scum. Most of the time we end up with the classic day 1 lynch of a misunderstood RI.

With the perpetual threat of intentions being misunderstood, several methods have developed (used by town and scum alike) to avoid this trap. People can be hyperbole like Trake, standing out in flared passion, swearing like a sailor, etc etc. Similarly, people can act entirely scummy, such that they are discounted (Kalse).

On the otherhand, there are the cautious players who avoid giving any scummy vibes. These are the low posters and perfect townies.

Now I realize I am grossly simplifying the complexities of play, especially since people change styles as the game progresses. This change, I believe, makes it harder to pick out scum, because the more people talk, the more chances they have of sinking their boat. This is why despite the BS that flourishes during Day 1, we need to look at people closely for slip ups or playstyle choices to try and guess at their intentions.


If you read anything read this:

My case against Kilava is based on Day 1 playstyle. Kilava intentionally takes up the banner of a thoughtful, analytic townie, who tries to remain calm when attacked with votes, who tries to critique other's thoughts, and who shouts down the stupid and inane for confusing everyone and preventing meaningful discussion.

This playstyle is a choice, and on Day 1 appears heavy handed and contrived to me (and others). Thus, the case against Kilava is based on the presumed assumption that Kilava is trying to blend in by giving the appearance of a good townie, above suspicion and too valuable to lynch. It is a fairly easy role to fake in my experience (given my playstyle doesn't change much, regardless of my role status, RI or Scum) and done right, people can get through the game misguiding town.

Fortunately, played too earnestly, or nervously (as in Kilava's case, as mentioned by Ruse), the playstyle smells wrong, and inconsistencies, however tenuous, crop up. Kilava fits the bill of someone using the playstyle to hide in plain sight, not as a natural, innocent, helpful townie with nothing to hide.

That is why I vote Kilava and will push to see her lynched today.

Kilava, on 15 May 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

I could go for Monok for much the same reasons as Kalse, as I pointed out yesterday. Is on while discussion is happening and chooses not to post. Still lean towards Kalse for not seeming to vote where his cases would actually suggest he ought to, which make it seem like he's not really voting for the reasons he says, much like Ruse.

Since I've already brought up the possibility of Kalse/Ruse, and have looked at Kalse already (and Ruse only on a couple of issues), I'm going to take a closer look at Ruse...

[Ruse]

Kilava, on 15 May 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Ok, so there's his odd vote which has already been spoken about. Then he points the finger at Trake. He thinks a symp clue is unlikely.

Ruse, on 13 May 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Just going to throw this out there, how fast was that response from Trake AND he points fingers elsewhere straight away. Seemingly scummy move in my opinion.

As to his suspicions, I see where he is coming from. I don't think any symp would be so obvious to do that. As when we finally catch a killer it can easily be traced back.

I think Trake could well be a killer.

He gets called on his vote and doesn't really address it, just dismisses it. He then puts out a theory that Trake and Denul are killers, with Denul fake symping Thyr to try and pretend that Denul is a symp, because we don't lynch symps much.

Ruse, on 13 May 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Joke votes aren't meant to make sense sonny. If you want to be serious then that is up to you.


The whole vote before the timer begins is a good way for a killer pair to concoct the role of pretend symp and lynch an innocent. I wouldn't put it past you being Denul's partner. That way we think Denul is symp and so try and make connections to who his master is. Therefore not voting Denul. Now you coming on and making the case against Thyr makes me believe you could be connected that way.

Explains his original vote, and that he is leaving his vote on seriously.

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

When I voted Trake originally I basically picked the one out of two alts that had not posted. The reason I have left my vote that way is because of his behaviour since or at least up until I went away. I have not had much time to read the thread yet. This game got serious very quickly. I was prodding him to post with the vote which he did but his posts felt wrong.

Now this post is one that I didn't make much note of at the time, but in hindsight, it seems kind of relevant right?

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

[...]

The case is flimsy at best.

Like this post by Ryadd, is it a joke? Do you all understand it?

Ryadd Eleis, on 12 May 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Pallid, on 12 May 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

...... and my avatar looks like an electrified zebra. :|

At least you're a fellow critter of flesh and bones. The rest so far are just somewhat sentient mostly empty spaces.

It reads strange to me. Fellow critter of flesh and bones? Fellow to who? Is he comparing dragon and wolf? Or just because Mockra and that do not have "bodies"? Unless by Fellow he means another creature like Kilava? Kilava and Pallid killers with Ryadd as their symp? Mafia paranoia setting in here, I know he is meant to be referring to the avatars gone by as opposed to something deeper and meaningful, isn't he?

Now here is the first post that shows Thyrllan as wide eyed stupid

Thyrllan, on 13 May 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

I couldn't find it in the OP - how many alts do we all get in this game again?

Is he joking here or being innocent? Is it someone pretending to be the noob on purpose? Or is it the noob?

[...]

Odd how he jumps to me and Pallid with Ryadd as a symp...I hadn't actually posted at the point when Ryadd made that post.

Also brings up Thyr playing the noob.

Here is some connection with Kalse. He plays He calls my vote good, but subtly defends Kalse too:

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Good vote of Kalse there, his posts are yada yada whatever he said earlier. Disinterested townie in my opinion for now anyway.

He then explains he's not going to vote Kalse as 2 votes is enough pressure.

Kalse accuses him of deflecting from Thyr. Ruse says he'll vote Thyr for a lynch, but doesn't really agree with the case. Certainly doesn't seem to be his first choice...

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Kalse, on 14 May 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Who said it was a joke vote? You and Ruse are clearly deflecting from Thryll whatever the fuck his name light is by voting for Trake someone who was serious right out of the gate so is so low on my scum list as to almost be PI. You all three need to go.

Thanks Have a nice day.

Clearly! That is exactly what I am trying to do. I will vote for Thyr to get a lynch but I don't have to agree with Trake's logic, I don't think Trake thinks Thyr will turn out to be scum.

...Which makes this vote seem pretty damn odd. While two votes were enough pressure for him not to vote Kalse, apparently he's fine being the fourth onto Thyr. Even though he doesn't seem very into the Thyr case at all. Certainly I can't see much reason on thread that he'd want to hop on the train at this point.

Also worth noting, that Ruse and Kalse don't really follow up on each other at all . Kalse goes for me rather than Ruse, and neither mention the other much at all.

The vote:

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Trake, on 14 May 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

I do think that thy is scum he is trying to hard to try to be a total newb to actually be a newb. It is obvious that you do not think logically when it comes to mafia at all so there is no way that you will ever agree with my logic.

Oh is there logic within your posts? I fail to see that.

Vote Thyrllan

It's worth noting that this vote is big. It puts Thyr on 4, with the next nearest train being 2. Within 10 minutes, Thyr is L-3, and has become the main lynch candidate by a large margin. You'd expect someone making such a big vote to be a bit more behind the candidate.

Even after his vote, he doesn't seem very into Thyr. He's willing to vote him "in case signalling was right". He's earlier suggested he really doesn't think it is. And "If Thyr is faking I want to give that guy an Oscar" seems to suggest to me that he's really not convinced that Thyr is faking.

He's also really middle of the road below. His suspect list is nearly half the game (though neither Kalse, nor me for that matter), and there's no one he suspects for anything big. To note here are that he'd apparently be willing to vote the person he thinks is symp. Also that he felt Serc was fake symping him, though this just seems paranoid to me, don't remember him getting heat for it at all.

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Wow.

If Thyr is faking I want to give that guy an Oscar.

I'd be willing to vote for Denul, Trake, Spite, Thyrllan, Serc, Ryadd for all different reasons. Nothing big though as it's only day one. Denul for initial vote that started this mess, Trake for his aggressive play when confronted, Spite for coasting along voting with the flow not adding much, thyrllan in case signalling was right, Serc for seemingly.fake symping me, he had been too agreeable with me and follows my vote, and Ryadd because I think he is the actual symp.

And then he votes me today:

Ruse, on 15 May 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Vote Kilava

Having just read up he argues with some people, pokes other people, is nice to other's a really mix of emotions coming from him. He is mostly active and I get a huge scum vibe from him. Some examples coming up.

It's kind of interesting. Since people have went for me from early today, as Mockra points out, any case is based on how I played yesterday. Which he really didn't mention at all at the time (even though he gave a huge list of people), and now it's a "huge scum vibe". I didn't even qualify for "nothing big" yesterday, but based on the same play he's voting now?

Won't really go into the case in depth, since this is a case on Ruse, rather than a defense of myself. Interesting to note that he circles back round to me and Pallid with Ryadd as symp though.

And much like earlier, his logic just doesn't really add up. It's like he's decided where he wants to vote and is then scrambling for any reason to vote there that he can find.

Also, similarly to earlier in the game with his Trake vote, he never really addresses people pointing out that he was willing to vote Ryadd rather than voting his master. The closer he comes is saying "Fine then" and voting me, as if that explains the initial slip.

I would be happy voting Ruse.

Anyhow, I'm off for a couple of hours now, back in a while.

[Ruse]

all your suspicions about me, yet not a vote. Keeping me around. The difference between us is that you are trying to look townie whereas I'm not. You haven't voted me but I have voted you. Yes I'm suspicious of other players but there isn't that much to go on. You link a lot of those players and should give us tons of information.

[Ruse]

Kilava, on 16 May 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Pallid, on 16 May 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

I'd be willing to switch to Monok as well. My eye is still on Kilava/Trake, but again, I agree with Pressen that Ruse seems to be taking advantage of the train on Kilava. Which is odd, since most of his posting seems to be about me.

Tbh, as today has gone on, Ruse has seemed scummier and scummier, while Kalse hasn't changed much. Though I'm sure that is in part due to Ruse being the one posting.

Kilava, on 16 May 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Decided I ought to take a look at Ryadd, what with his rather wtf vote on me and all. He's been stewing in my mind as a potential symp for a bit, so I thought I'd get it on thread.

First things first, since we're going to have to deal with it. Potential signalling.

Avatar banter. Seems jokey enough, would probably let this slide.

Ryadd Eleis, on 12 May 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Pallid, on 12 May 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

...... and my avatar looks like an electrified zebra. :|

At least you're a fellow critter of flesh and bones. The rest so far are just somewhat sentient mostly empty spaces.

Slightly more dubious interjection here.

Ryadd Eleis, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

Kalse, on 13 May 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Kilava, on 13 May 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Also, check my rockin' panther avatar.

Vote Kilava

Only scum would admire a silent stalker killer who is able to hide in the night.

I admire silent stalker night killers. They make wonderful rugs.

I mean, it's the kind of thing you'd maybe stop and reconsider before posting. Still, taken on it's own, maybe just more avatar banter.

Moving on, the person he pushes most to start with is Ruse. Pushes him on his vote, and reaction to Trake. The main thing I noticed though is that the dude is really middle of the road. I say he pushes Ruse, but really that's not the word. Frowns at Ruse? That almost seems too strong. I don't want to quote them all here, but just go read them. It's hugely non committal. One example:

Ryadd Eleis, on 13 May 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Trake, on 13 May 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Ryadd what is your opinion on Denul and Thy?

None yet. I am curious about Ruse though. I have no problem with a blind vote on a low poster, but Ruse implies that the vote wasn't blind. Not to mention that 10 minutes into the game seems a bit early for pressure voting in the first place. And the reaction to your post seems contrived.

It's all in this sort of vein.

He also went back and forth on Thyr a bunch. No opinion, then agrees with my post (where I say I think the symping case in unlikely), then votes Thyr for symping reasons. Removes vote, claiming to be buying the noob card. Stops buying the noob card, vote returns. Nothing particularly incriminating. Nothing particularly anything at all, just really blah posting. Middle of the road, not really venturing any new opinions whatsoever.

Then jumps onto me this morning with a rather WTF vote. Again, kind of just going with the flow (I'm "smooth"), but kind of adds his own justifcation too.

The interesting part is that his own justification is just plain strange. I know I'm kind of biased here but I'm not the only one to pick up on it.

Ryadd Eleis, on 15 May 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Kilava, on 15 May 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Damn, Thyr was Khell?
Khell, you suck and you're a jerk.

Actually he doesn't and he isn't. He's pretty good. And he's especially good at surviving. So why didn't he just own up to it and reveal the lie? Riding it all the way serves town zero good. None at all. So either he wanted to fuck over his team intentionally or he really is the symp.

Which makes me want to pressure our silky smooth rug. 'Cause she started throwing up lots of verbosity right after this:

[snip]

I think that that is where Kilava had an 'oh shit' moment and realized that Thyr really was the symp.

Vote Kilava

The poor justification makes it seem like he either just wants to hop on what he thinks will be an easy train and go with the flow, or that he has some ulterior reason for wanting to hop on regardless of justification.

Which brings me neatly back to the earlier sympish interaction between him and Kalse.

Edit for clarity.

Kilava, on 16 May 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Spite, on 16 May 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Before I read over Mockra's arguments I didn't get much of a scummy vibe from Kilava. I will admit however, that after Mockra's well constructed posts I was feeling somewhat swayed.

Construction is nice and all, but content is kind of crucial, and when you boil it down to it, it's just a case based on playstyle.

The only people you cannot apply "scum want to appear like town" arguments to, are those who have played scummily anyhow.

As a case, it's hard to object to, because it's just the fashionable way of saying "gut". My main objection to Mockra is that it feels like he isn't just reading what is on thread and analysing it, but rather has decided on a target and is trying to make anything stick, regardless of how backed up it is.

As an example of what I mean:

Post 268. Mockra accuses me of being scummy for not pushing my case on Kalse enough.
Post 271. I bring up the actual facts of how much I did push my case.

Post 278:

Mockra, on 15 May 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

Let's take a different tack [...]

Mockra then builds a case which is essentially a description of how I've played, facts about things I've done, combined with basic facts such as killers wanting to survive and looking like town being a decent way of doing that. Perhaps he decided it was easier just to go for a case on playstyle instead of on thread evidence.

[Ruse]

I'm looking scummier and scummier yet he goes onto to build cases elsewhere. oh look in Ryadd who we know us innocent and spite whom I think will be innocent sure to Kilava pushing for him to self vote just like he did with Thyr

[Ruse]

Kilava, on 17 May 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

Wow, slow day.

Really just checking in before going to bed. Should be back with a good amount of time to spare. Hopefully more people will have been on and contributed by then.

Have started re-reading the thread trying to take a bit of a different approach, not get too hung up on stuff I've attacked before (though there's still people I'd be willing to vote over it).

One thing that I really noticed was that Ryadd is a really middle of the road player. Just read his earlier posts, his follow up on Ruse is weak, his attitude towards Thyr is wishy-washy etc.

So, for just now:

Vote Ryadd

Kilava, on 17 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Ruse, on 17 May 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

I am thinking Trake has to go today. Kilava at least is participating even though I think he is definite scum, it's his partner i'm looking for and either Anthras, Pallid or Trake is it.

If you think I am definite scum and are not sure about my partner you should be voting me.

If you think I'm definite scum, and you have 3 suspects for my partner, that means you have a 2/3 of hitting inno by going for my partner. Not only that, but if one of them is lynched and turns up inno, where does it leave us? It really doesn't clear up much, does it? I mean, if there are still two other candidates for my partner, things can stay hung up on my supposed scumminess.

However much contribution I make, does that really make up for having a 1/3 chance of scum, as opposed to what you think is definite?

If the case on someone else relies on me being scummy, surely you should be testing that part first no? We tend to try and find scum first, then find the partner, not vice versa, and that's for a good reason.

I don't like it. It seems scummy, like you're trying to set up an extra, easy, lynch out of my supposed scummy behaviour, since that seems to have gotten a little support. Then if they come up inno you can easily just say that you must have hit the wrong one of them, and go for me or for one of the other two, and get two lynches for the price of one.

This is either dodgy as fuck or tremendously poor play.

Kilava, on 17 May 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

At this point so many people are coasting/low posting that if scum are amongst them it's could be hard to find them. As always, town low posting gives scum somewhere to hide and can waste time/effort/lynches, so is a total pain all around.

Also, list/summary of my thoughts on people incoming.

Anthras: Very low number of posts, but relatively decent content when he posts. Seems to try and contribute original stuff, does end up agreeing with points people have made a lot but that's to be expected when you're not around much. Not much to get a read on. Ruse does point out that his view on how the CF results influence things are a bit strange ("if Kalse turns up scum it adds to Mockra's case against Kilava"). Kind of cautious. Pretty consistent about being unconvinced Thyr was de-railing. Tends not to come down very strongly on either side of debates. In one post Mockra's post is simply based on playstyle and goes against evidence, in another it's intriguing etc. Also mentions he has almost no time to play, brief window/like an hour a day. All his posts seems to fall roughly around either 11 PM - 12 AM GMT, or around 2-3 AM GMT, and really RL should just be taken at face value anyway.

Denul: Almost no contribution to the game. Like Anthras he explains he is low on time, at one point saying he can basically just read the thread. He's against the early pressure on thyr, but then ofc he is since it was his vote that got people looking there to start. Voted kalse for the lynch, hammered, when he maybe could've just not posted, so that's in his favour.

Eldat Pressen: Mostly his contribution's have been reasonable, some analysis etc. He seems to like Trake, doesn't like Monok Ochem. A couple of odd things do stick out. Firstly, trying to set up lynches down the road. Called him on it at the time, as did Monok. Also started the "smooth" thing, then hasn't really mentioned it since Mockra picked it up. Slight scummy vibe. Like he wants to instigate things (also seemed he could be trying to set up a Monok vote in advance earlier, suggesting that if we don't lynch him now, we ought to later), but without being at the forefront.

Kilava: Best thing since sliced bread.

Monok Ochem: Still very coasty. Doesn't seem to have been prompted by the accusations into actually contributing much more. Not sure if that makes him less scummy or more. Part of me thinks it'd be an easy low poster vote, but I think there's more than just low posting, it's the complete lack of content and also the impression that he is actually around enough that he could post much more constructively, which I can't seem to shake. Worth noting as well that he does seem to be following fine, see here for example:

Monok Ochem, on 15 May 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

Anthras, your quote broke, it was Elder Presley who said that stuff, appears you quoted Serc - then you addressed it to Ruse, who is on Kilava's case not mine


otherwise, carry on

Pallid: No single post comes to mind as standing out as seeming really scummy. The Thyr aspect of his case doesn't make much sense, the Trake aspect of it is reasonable enough but doesn't get very far or show much imo. Posts a lot, does seem to be trying to contribute, nothing hugely controversial and doesn't come down too strongly anywhere. Makes a case for me/Trake, doesn't seem to really like the other cases much though. Could be accused of being a bit wishy washy. Sarcastic at times, but rarely confrontational, kind of cautious and doesn't always seem that committed to the ideas he puts forwards.

Spite: Much like Anthras. He hasn't posted much, but has seemed to be trying to contribute when he has. He has been pretty middle of the road though, not many strong opinions that stand out. Does suggest Thyr must have been the symp, other than that, not much, just going along with things, either mildly agreeing or disagreeing. Votes Kalse, partly because he seems to think it's a better case, also partly as he didn't want a no lynch and it seemed the better vote in that regard.

Ruse: I don't think he makes much sense a lot of the time, but I'm not sure that would make him scum. Some of the stuff he does that doesn't make sense does look kind of scummy though. I didn't even make his large list of "nothing big" and then based on the same play I'm really scummy. He thinks I'm definite scum but wants to try and lynch my partner first, etc. Wouldn't mind a Ruse vote, but part of me just thinks he's town not making much sense...Also don't want to fall into just focussing on vocal players because they're the only one's posting so ofc they're the ones who'll end up posting something I think is a bit off, etc.

Trake: Was vocal to start,now isn't (again, have to give people benefit of the doubt about RL stuff though). I gave him some heat then tailed off when other stuff came along. Thyr may have been de-railing from him. Think I'm willing to give him a pass until he can start posting again though.

Anthras, Denul, Eldat Pressen, Kilava, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Spite, Ruse, Trake

Of these, I'd say these are the ones currently coasting/low posting, with their post counts:

Anthras (7), Denul (14), Monok Ochem (22), Spite (8), Trake (52).

Trake is the obvious outlier, because he was posting a lot earlier. Monok (and Denul to a lesser extent for that matter), has a really poor post/content ratio.

I mean, Eldat has 24 posts. Pallid has 20.

Monok is my first choice for scum in this group, Spite or maybe Denul my second.

As a side note, if you're scum coasting and claiming a RL reason to make it seem less suspicious, fuck you.

Of the I'd say are posting more content (that is, Eldat, myself, Pallid, Ruse), Ruse is currently the one I find scummiest.

For now, I'm going to:

Vote Monok Ochem.

He has been coasting from the start, but it seems more by deliberate choice than other people. Ruse has also seemed scummy, but could just be a town player who has gone for a few things I don't think are sensible. It also bugs me that we make it easy for scum to coast, partly by giving them the place to hide by town also, partly by not lynching them very often.

Edited because I hit posted before finishing a sentence by accident.

[Ruse]

So you say I am scummier and scummier, then vote Ryadd. Two posts later you say I'm confused town and vote monok. You say I'm bumbling around?

[Ruse]

Kilava, on 17 May 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 17 May 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

a few minutes, aye

I will not self vote

What's the case on Spite?

Being very middle of the road basically. Doesn't contribute often and when he does he doesn't take much of a stance, vaguely agrees with stuff and then goes etc...

Wouldn't expect a self vote. They're rarely necessary and usually just irritating.

So you wanted Thyr and spite to self vote big don't see the training beingmonok voting himself

[Ruse]

Kilava, on 18 May 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

I'd obviously also be happy to vote Ruse. If there are enough people around, it's possible we can still actually vote whoever we think is scummiest rather than simply voting to get a lynch.

But if you're not going to be around, please bear in mind that failing to get a lynch is really the worst case here. If Anthras is around to shift (as well as me), we'd only really need one other person to be definitely able to vote Spite if needed to be safe from that though.

Edit: Missed a word.

I'm going to stop now but look at you again. Ready to vote me. That its each and every day pointing fingers towards me but voting elsewhere.

[Kilava]

Ruse, on 19 May 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Kilava, on 17 May 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 17 May 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

a few minutes, aye

I will not self vote

What's the case on Spite?

Being very middle of the road basically. Doesn't contribute often and when he does he doesn't take much of a stance, vaguely agrees with stuff and then goes etc...

Wouldn't expect a self vote. They're rarely necessary and usually just irritating.

So you wanted Thyr and spite to self vote big don't see the training beingmonok voting himself

The difference with spite being time and that Monok wasn't the largest lynch train. Obviously.

Self voting is only beneficial in a few situations. So far, only Spite has been in one of them. It is something that just must be considered case by case. Going "look, he wanted Spite to self vote but never expected that of Monok" is just missing the point.