[Galactic Council]

Yes, page 20 of official rules.

"The hex to which you retreat must contain your Influence Disc and must not contain enemy Ships"

[Gnaw]

twelve, on 02 July 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 02 July 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Tatts,

Look at all the helpful people.

I'm going to look at the official faq on boardgamegeek. I thought you could retreat anywhere that there wasn't an opposing disc or ship.

That would make sense but from what I pulled from the copy of the rules I have you can't.

The comment (which was from one of the designers) was about influencing after retreat.

So you're right and Tatts can't retreat. And I can't retreat any of mine.

*shrug* Pray for no ones Tatts.

[twelve]

Gnaw, on 02 July 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

twelve, on 02 July 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 02 July 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Tatts,

Look at all the helpful people.

I'm going to look at the official faq on boardgamegeek. I thought you could retreat anywhere that there wasn't an opposing disc or ship.

That would make sense but from what I pulled from the copy of the rules I have you can't.

The comment (which was from one of the designers) was about influencing after retreat.

So you're right and Tatts can't retreat. And I can't retreat any of mine.

*shrug* Pray for no ones Tatts.

That would be a nice exploitation of the rules wouldn't it. Makes sense now why they don't allow retreats to empty hexes.

[Galactic Council]

It would also be a nice way of dirty-bombing somebody's territory. Make like you're going all-in on a hex so that he concentrates defences there, then retreat and grab up all the surrounding undefended hexes.



@End of round

I'm not hearing from anybody that they want to interject a reaction or change the play in the last few action rounds. I won't be resolving combat until this evening, so if you have anything to add then get it in within the next few hours.

@Tapper's representative

I would still like to enter diplo with you if you are willing. Post combat.

[Gnaw]

Galactic Council, on 02 July 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

@Gnaw and GP

So I get this straight,

Gnaw has gone all out and bankrupted himself completely so that he can have a retribution attack against GP. Now, with no hope of continuing the game he is going to do everything possible to allow GP to escape the retribution attack?

This is highly strange. Why are you playing the game like this Gnaw? It just doesn't seem very sportsmanlike. Not technically against the rules, but it's annoying.

Ok. Since there's nothing I can do to influence the battles:


I told Tatts that I would bankrupt myself before giving that hex up. Again and again. I told him I could smoke two dreads. Again and again.

I made a huge fucking mistake by getting greedy and moving my interceptors through the warp portal. I thought that since CF had tied up two interceptors in ancient hexes that I could eliminate him.

Tatts invaded, which I wasn't much of a surprise to me. But you'll notice that the "I only wanted an artifact" argument came up much later. After he developed doubts. Up until then he crowed about how easily he was going to take all my territory.

So I did what I did because I said I would do it. Next time (if there is one) he will know that when I make flat statements of intent I will follow through.

That is how and why I ended up where I'm at.


Why am I trying so hard to let him off the hook?

This is a wargame and talking opponents into doing stupid things is part of the game. But I went back to Turn 4 and re-read some of that. Tatts was called a sissy and a coward for not attacking me. He was told how easy it would be. *shrug* part of the game. And at this point I think only Tapper remembered I had the nova burst.

As time went by though, people kept egging Tatts on. Even after the nova burst was discussed.

You can call it unsportsmanlike all you wish, but I reached a point where I felt that the manipulation of Tatts was less than humorous.

I can't retreat, but I can do this:

Combat orders:

223 Do not use nova burst.

[Gnaw]

Tatts,

Assuming that my interceptor misses your cube in Vega, I will extend diplo to you after we fight but before the end of the combat phase. That will give you one more cube for cleanup.

[Gnaw]

twelve, on 02 July 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

I agree that Gnaw didn't really give anybody a chance to react plus he did it over the weekend when people are also not as plugged in so I see no problem with allowing someone to throw a reaction anywhere in Gnaws last group of actions.

Huh? I posted them all at once so that people could react. My moves didn't become valid until the rotation returned to me each time.

[Morgoth]

Gnaw, on 02 July 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Galactic Council, on 02 July 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

@Gnaw and GP

So I get this straight,

Gnaw has gone all out and bankrupted himself completely so that he can have a retribution attack against GP. Now, with no hope of continuing the game he is going to do everything possible to allow GP to escape the retribution attack?

This is highly strange. Why are you playing the game like this Gnaw? It just doesn't seem very sportsmanlike. Not technically against the rules, but it's annoying.

Ok. Since there's nothing I can do to influence the battles:


I told Tatts that I would bankrupt myself before giving that hex up. Again and again. I told him I could smoke two dreads. Again and again.

I made a huge fucking mistake by getting greedy and moving my interceptors through the warp portal. I thought that since CF had tied up two interceptors in ancient hexes that I could eliminate him.

Tatts invaded, which I wasn't much of a surprise to me. But you'll notice that the "I only wanted an artifact" argument came up much later. After he developed doubts. Up until then he crowed about how easily he was going to take all my territory.

So I did what I did because I said I would do it. Next time (if there is one) he will know that when I make flat statements of intent I will follow through.

That is how and why I ended up where I'm at.


Why am I trying so hard to let him off the hook?

This is a wargame and talking opponents into doing stupid things is part of the game. But I went back to Turn 4 and re-read some of that. Tatts was called a sissy and a coward for not attacking me. He was told how easy it would be. *shrug* part of the game. And at this point I think only Tapper remembered I had the nova burst.

As time went by though, people kept egging Tatts on. Even after the nova burst was discussed.

You can call it unsportsmanlike all you wish, but I reached a point where I felt that the manipulation of Tatts was less than humorous.

I can't retreat, but I can do this:

Combat orders:

223 Do not use nova burst.

So basically you're losing on purpose because you think twelve and CF were being mean?

[twelve]

Galactic Council, on 02 July 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

It would also be a nice way of dirty-bombing somebody's territory. Make like you're going all-in on a hex so that he concentrates defences there, then retreat and grab up all the surrounding undefended hexes.



@End of round

I'm not hearing from anybody that they want to interject a reaction or change the play in the last few action rounds. I won't be resolving combat until this evening, so if you have anything to add then get it in within the next few hours.

@Tapper's representative

I would still like to enter diplo with you if you are willing. Post combat.

CF, Tapper is (hehe) Tapped out in the diplomacy department. He couldn't accept even if he wanted to.

[Gnaw]

As for reactions: all of my moves are actions. I did not pass until my turn 13.

So anyone can do reactions up until then.

[twelve]

Gnaw, on 02 July 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

twelve, on 02 July 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

I agree that Gnaw didn't really give anybody a chance to react plus he did it over the weekend when people are also not as plugged in so I see no problem with allowing someone to throw a reaction anywhere in Gnaws last group of actions.

Huh? I posted them all at once so that people could react. My moves didn't become valid until the rotation returned to me each time.

We came to the same conclusion as to allow people to react if they wanted to so it's all good.

[twelve]

Morgoth, on 02 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 02 July 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Galactic Council, on 02 July 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

@Gnaw and GP

So I get this straight,

Gnaw has gone all out and bankrupted himself completely so that he can have a retribution attack against GP. Now, with no hope of continuing the game he is going to do everything possible to allow GP to escape the retribution attack?

This is highly strange. Why are you playing the game like this Gnaw? It just doesn't seem very sportsmanlike. Not technically against the rules, but it's annoying.

Ok. Since there's nothing I can do to influence the battles:


I told Tatts that I would bankrupt myself before giving that hex up. Again and again. I told him I could smoke two dreads. Again and again.

I made a huge fucking mistake by getting greedy and moving my interceptors through the warp portal. I thought that since CF had tied up two interceptors in ancient hexes that I could eliminate him.

Tatts invaded, which I wasn't much of a surprise to me. But you'll notice that the "I only wanted an artifact" argument came up much later. After he developed doubts. Up until then he crowed about how easily he was going to take all my territory.

So I did what I did because I said I would do it. Next time (if there is one) he will know that when I make flat statements of intent I will follow through.

That is how and why I ended up where I'm at.


Why am I trying so hard to let him off the hook?

This is a wargame and talking opponents into doing stupid things is part of the game. But I went back to Turn 4 and re-read some of that. Tatts was called a sissy and a coward for not attacking me. He was told how easy it would be. *shrug* part of the game. And at this point I think only Tapper remembered I had the nova burst.

As time went by though, people kept egging Tatts on. Even after the nova burst was discussed.

You can call it unsportsmanlike all you wish, but I reached a point where I felt that the manipulation of Tatts was less than humorous.

I can't retreat, but I can do this:

Combat orders:

223 Do not use nova burst.

So basically you're losing on purpose because you think twelve and CF were being mean?

For the record I didn't egg Tatts to attack anybody. Frankly I wanted him to attack the double ancient hex instead of Gnaw as I wanted to destroy his Dreads. Now Gnaw is letting Tatts off the hook by not using the Nova Burst and Tatts chances of winning the fight have skyrocketed.

[Gnaw]

Morgoth, on 02 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

So basically you're losing on purpose because you think twelve and CF were being mean?

No, I'm losing on purpose because I said I would do so emphatically and often. I doubt I'll be invited to a second game, but if I am, people will know that I will follow through on points I deem important.

I'm willing to help Tatts get out of this because there were people who were doing all they could to get him into this situation. Notice that rules were poured over to find a way to get Tatt's second dread to my world. But as soon as I try to do something to let Tatts off the hook, the rulebook was quite hastily checked for ways to assure that he would lose. *shrug*

[Morgoth]

twelve, on 02 July 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 02 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 02 July 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

]

This is a wargame and talking opponents into doing stupid things is part of the game. But I went back to Turn 4 and re-read some of that. Tatts was called a sissy and a coward for not attacking me. He was told how easy it would be. *shrug* part of the game. And at this point I think only Tapper remembered I had the nova burst.

As time went by though, people kept egging Tatts on. Even after the nova burst was discussed.

You can call it unsportsmanlike all you wish, but I reached a point where I felt that the manipulation of Tatts was less than humorous.

I can't retreat, but I can do this:

Combat orders:

223 Do not use nova burst.

So basically you're losing on purpose because you think twelve and CF were being mean?

For the record I didn't egg Tatts to attack anybody. Frankly I wanted him to attack the double ancient hex instead of Gnaw as I wanted to destroy his Dreads. Now Gnaw is letting Tatts off the hook by not using the Nova Burst and Tatts chances of winning the fight have skyrocketed.

Huh, I thought I remembered it being you two. People were pushing D'rek pretty hard too, and I certainly argued heavily for Tatts to attack D'rek, which clearly would have been the better choice by far if Gnaw hadn't decided to lose the game on purpose. Or, that's the impression I'm getting from Gnaw now at any rate.

I hardly think the pressure was particularly mean, nor do I think Tatts is incapable of making his own decisions, so I'm finding myself very unsympathetic to the whole argument.

[twelve]

Gnaw, on 02 July 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 02 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

So basically you're losing on purpose because you think twelve and CF were being mean?

No, I'm losing on purpose because I said I would do so emphatically and often. I doubt I'll be invited to a second game, but if I am, people will know that I will follow through on points I deem important.

I'm willing to help Tatts get out of this because there were people who were doing all they could to get him into this situation. Notice that rules were poured over to find a way to get Tatt's second dread to my world. But as soon as I try to do something to let Tatts off the hook, the rulebook was quite hastily checked for ways to assure that he would lose. *shrug*

Well considering you are the prime candidate to mod the next game I highly doubt you will not be invited into the next game.

While I don't agree with your decision to lose the game to make a point, you didn't do anything outside the rules and you haven't been trollish in the process. I won't have an issue playing another game with you.

[Galactic Council]

Quote

You can call it unsportsmanlike all you wish, but I reached a point where I felt that the manipulation of Tatts was less than humorous.

I wasn't aware anybody was manipulating anybody. It's part of our forum eclipse game that we egg each other on and tell others what they should and shouldn't be doing with their moves.


Now if I was somehow manipulating the game unfairly using my mod powers to influence GP somehow, then I think you'd have a case...

As it stands however, I have played through exactly one game of eclipse in my entire life and won only by suckling at Twelve's massive intergalactic teat the whole time*. To suggest I am somehow manipulating another player is plain silly. To quit a game over it is sillier still.








*Don't take that "massive" qualifier too personally twelve; it was delicious.

[Morgoth]

Gnaw, on 02 July 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 02 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

So basically you're losing on purpose because you think twelve and CF were being mean?

No, I'm losing on purpose because I said I would do so emphatically and often. I doubt I'll be invited to a second game, but if I am, people will know that I will follow through on points I deem important.

I'm willing to help Tatts get out of this because there were people who were doing all they could to get him into this situation. Notice that rules were poured over to find a way to get Tatt's second dread to my world. But as soon as I try to do something to let Tatts off the hook, the rulebook was quite hastily checked for ways to assure that he would lose. *shrug*

Now you're moving a bit too far into your accusations here I think. I certainly can understand the wish to build a reputation for future games, that's what happens in gaming groups after all, but this other stuff, conspiracies and malevolence, is just the poor loser in you talking. Shrug it off. It's just a game and no one have been showing poor sportsmanship as far as I've seen. No one is out to get you, as in a personal attack. People are trying to manipulate argue and trick each other, but so far well within the frameworks of the game as far as I can see.

[Morgoth]

When that is said. We all make mistakes, and at least I'll be having company watching from the sidelines now. I wont even be the first to go, so I can hardly say I'm very displeased.

[twelve]

Galactic Council, on 02 July 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

As it stands however, I have played through exactly one game of eclipse in my entire life and won only by suckling at Twelve's massive intergalactic teat the whole time*.
*Don't take that "massive" qualifier too personally twelve; it was delicious.

Trust me I knew I was the one doing the bulk of the heavy lifting last game and you were a necessary tool to be used and exploited to our mutual benefit.

[Galactic Council]

EDIT to my last post

@Gnaw

I do see now that you are suggesting we're manipulating rules against you or somehow preferentially treating GP. That is absolutely not true.

I hardly pored over the rules to find a way to let him into the hex...there was an obvious route around that he didn't see. He was allowed to change the action because Morgoth didn't issue an order yet - a practice which was allowed up until that point for other players. The fact that I pointed it out is hardly surprising either since I look at the board more than anybody. We did the same for SS near the start of the game.

When you were trying to change things to let GP off the hook, you suggested a retreat that really wasn't possible. I didn't rush to the rules to find out why not...somebody just pointed it out (can't remember who), I typed "retreat" into adobe reader "find" window the same way I have for all other rule disputes to date (remember engagement and missile rounds debate). It found a section dealing with exactly the rule dispute somebody else pointed out and I copy-pasted it.

So think of it what you will I guess, I doubt me posting the above will change your opinion, but for what it's worth I am NOT trying to manipulate the game against you or any other player, outside of what would normally occur in a tabletop game (eg. banter and egging on other players).