[worry]

I love nitpicking as much as the next guy but in terms of accuracy-to-the-book issues like that staff thing or bronze capes, I just can't care at all. It's not like they got the wrong answer on a test. I'm pretty sure that human beings having the same argument over and over about page-to-screen adaptations is the actual cause of global warming.

Then again, I do still wish Roose Bolton had those pink flares to his outfit, so maybe I'm contributing to our planet's demise. He's wonderfully cast though, noticed it more on my S2 rewatch. The same stern-ness of Tywin, but with that soft voice and downright eerie demeanor. At least I don't think it's all book-knowledge projected onto him, he seems to really be channeling that stuff already.

Anyways, I agree, the Karstark/Mallister stuff is good for the reading audience and necessary to achieve a lived-in quality for the world, but WTH happened to Greatjon? He's been gone since S1.

Also, the first thing that got my heart beating a little faster was the Winterfell section of the opening credits. Basic wish fulfillment.

[Aristai]

Winterfell in flames moment in the opening credits was magic..

This post has been edited by Aristai: 02 April 2013 - 07:36 AM

[Ukjent]

Is the marsh siblings, craig or something going to appear this season?

[worry]

Yah, Jojen and Meera Reed, both are in it.

[Ukjent]

Thats good to hear, never understood why they cut them out in the first place.

[worry]

I imagine 90% of those kinds of decisions come down to budget.

[Malaclypse]

 amphibian, on 02 April 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

 Malaclypse, on 01 April 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

I have argued on his behalf on westeros.org in various contexts - he is the greatest living warrior of Westeros - I'm convinced, but the illiterate audience is not. It will be interesting to see how they deal with this.

Barristan is sixty some fucking years old. He's the greatest living legend, sure, but it takes time for a legend to shape his materials to the degree he needs. He'd lose a battle right now unless he's got time to plan and train with the 8k soldiers. He'd lose a duel to a lotta people too - which is why Joffrey booted him. Idiot king, but Barristan is nearly worthless right now.

Also, the Red Wedding is scheduled for Episode 9. I think Catelyn's resurrection is the final scene of the season. She's gonna be super creepy.

Hold on there frog-boy!

Just cause Joffrey said it doesn't make it so. It was (and I assume remains) the consensus of the people who spent a great deal of time and effort working these things out that 60-year old Barristan would be favoured against any living swordsman with the possible exception of Jaime (I might add the Red Viper if he's not being a tool and taking unnecessary risks, but whatever). Anything can happen in a fight obviously but Barristan is a special kind of warrior and all he's been doing is protecting kings since he was like 16 years old - training all of the time, etc.

So he's pretty fucking far from 'nearly useless'! I can't believe you said that - have you even read the books?

[amphibian]

Barristan's value right now is in his experience, paranoia and in his training of others. He's past it as a direct combat utility, therefore his primary use is in passing of information to Dany and/or training bodyguards and soldiers. That takes time, effort and money. Neither of which he brings to Dany.

Yes, I've read the books and I also believe there's no way Martin gets it done in seven. Eight books it will be and the TV show will catch up to him.

[Ceda Cicero]

Re: upthread, didn't the actor playing Greatjon get scooped up by another show or something?

[Hocknose]

 Ceda Cicero, on 02 April 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Re: upthread, didn't the actor playing Greatjon get scooped up by another show or something?

Yeah i think you're right, he also had some of his ear bitten off the other day too...

http://www.bbc.co.uk...d-tyne-21927889

[Abyss]

Saw the premiere, liked, a lot. Not brilliant, but a solid scene-setter for each character we saw.

Winterfell all smokey in the titles was a nice touch.

Dany's scenes were well done. The Unsullied didn't look nearly as exotic as i had hoped, but the description of their training and the nipple scene made the point nicely. And those subtitles were priceless.
Glad they skipped the Barristan-in-disguise thing. Won't miss Belwas.. he's good fun, but more comic relief than plot.
That scene of the dragons flying over the ocean and fishing was pure visual fantasy fan goodness tho'.

Davos vs Mellisandre was nicely done. I enjoyed his chat with the pirate too.

I sort of felt they cheated with the opening scene with the Watch, doing the battle by sound only. The S2 finale seemed like it was setting up something massive, and then it was more or less handwaved. Fatty didn't get the ravens out because he was running for his life, Mormont.
Liked Jon's scenes, kept the right note of distrust everyone should have for him. The giant was nicely done. There are limits on what they can do with those, so it was a good shot of less-is-more.

Not much happened with Robb and i'm blanking on how the 200 dead Northmen got to Harrenhal to get massacred.

Sansa is in it, deep.

Liked Roz and Shae's chat. Well staged with Littlefinger walking away all evil-grins.

Bron utterly stole the show when he mouths off to the two knights and looks ready to take them on, no armor and just a dagger.

Tyrion and Cersei.... ouch. Tyrion and Tywin.... OUCH.

Maegry is totally playing everyone and doing a lovely job of it.

SO Happy the show is back!

[Terez]

 Abyss, on 02 April 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Maegry is totally playing everyone and doing a lovely job of it.

I like how Cersei comments on it. That wasn't in the books, was it? I like it either way because it clues the viewer into Cersei vs Margaery; you can't do it too subtly with the TV pace.

[Malaclypse]

 amphibian, on 02 April 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Barristan's value right now is in his experience, paranoia and in his training of others. He's past it as a direct combat utility, therefore his primary use is in passing of information to Dany and/or training bodyguards and soldiers. That takes time, effort and money. Neither of which he brings to Dany.

Yes, I've read the books and I also believe there's no way Martin gets it done in seven. Eight books it will be and the TV show will catch up to him.

You're just winding me up now. He won a tournament at 57. He tells 5 of the Kingsguard that he could cut through them like cheese and nobody gainsays him and this is after he's taken his armour off. A cursory search on the internet will show that more people agree with me than with you. In fact, I haven't seen a single person in the relevant conversations that shares your view. Some might favour Jaime, which is reasonable, and a few others get a shout but if you held a vote, you would arrive at Barristan Selmy every time. We did this on the UG a while back, btw. Your opinion is poorly-conceived. Barristan, as written, is the furthest thing from 'past it'.

Anyway, if you feel up to visiting the vomit-themed westeros.org there are several of threads on this subject. For example:

http://asoiaf.wester...rs-of-westeros/

http://asoiaf.wester...or-in-westeros/

Admit it, I'm right

[Overactive Imagination]

I thought the episode was pretty good. Watched it in HD on a sick TV which made it a lot better than how I usually watch it on my computer.

I was thinking though... if I hadn't read the books... I might not really like the series all that much. Anyone else feel the same way?

[amphibian]

I refuse to believe that a non-magical human being can win a legit tournament at 57 years of age. I would accept mid-40s as the latest someone like Caine from the Matthew Stover books could be effective in a pure melee situation.

The people voting for Barristan Selmy have likely never fought armed or unarmed. It's frickin' exhausting, people who are old don't deal well with exhausting activities and there's no way he'd slice through five prepared opponents of the general level of the Kingsguard - even Joffrey's watered down Kingsguard. They didn't say shit because that's frickin' Barristan Selmy and they know he's going to do the right thing and not fight them to the death.

Selmy's value is all wrapped up in his head - the skills, the experience and the knowledge of warfare all can be passed on and he can train people to be nearly as good as him at warfare and being a soldier.

Anyways, the series is actually absurdly good at creating characters/casting actors/writing lines in such a way that visceral responses are evoked from people. Viewers haaaaaaate Joffrey, they looooove Tyrion, they think Cersei's hot and manipulative, they think Stannis is an asshole, they like Robb and they do not trust Littlefinger. The list goes on a bit, but there's very little of the "Tara is an unlikable idiot" type thing going on as there is in True Blood.

There's subtlety in the characters for sure, but the visceral responses are so well delivered that the characters are easy to recognize and associate, despite the politicking and maneuvering.

[Malaclypse]

 amphibian, on 03 April 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

I refuse to believe that a non-magical human being can win a legit tournament at 57 years of age. I would accept mid-40s as the latest someone like Caine from the Matthew Stover books could be effective in a pure melee situation.

The people voting for Barristan Selmy have likely never fought armed or unarmed. It's frickin' exhausting, people who are old don't deal well with exhausting activities and there's no way he'd slice through five prepared opponents of the general level of the Kingsguard - even Joffrey's watered down Kingsguard. They didn't say shit because that's frickin' Barristan Selmy and they know he's going to do the right thing and not fight them to the death.

Selmy's value is all wrapped up in his head - the skills, the experience and the knowledge of warfare all can be passed on and he can train people to be nearly as good as him at warfare and being a soldier.

Anyways, the series is actually absurdly good at creating characters/casting actors/writing lines in such a way that visceral responses are evoked from people. Viewers haaaaaaate Joffrey, they looooove Tyrion, they think Cersei's hot and manipulative, they think Stannis is an asshole, they like Robb and they do not trust Littlefinger. The list goes on a bit, but there's very little of the "Tara is an unlikable idiot" type thing going on as there is in True Blood.

There's subtlety in the characters for sure, but the visceral responses are so well delivered that the characters are easy to recognize and associate, despite the politicking and maneuvering.

You may have noticed the words 'as written' in my last post. This is an important distinction. You see, and I hate to be the one to break this to you but Martin isn't writing in a 'real world' setting. *Gasp* I know huh? crazy stuff. What you are failing to do is suspend your disbelief, which is pretty much a must for treating speculative fiction intelligently.

The world in which Westeros exists has extremely wonky seasons, this is probably the biggest clue regarding its otherworld-ness. You might try to explain this in real world terms with a wildly eccentric orbit, but I'm pretty sure that it would be deemed improbable within our understanding of real-world physics ( I have looked into this, btw, things like this interest me). Even without that, there are dragons and magic as well. I could go on but I have to assume you are bright enough to have gotten the point by now. Please advise if you need further instruction.

Moving on, there could easily be something in the atmosphere, water, physiology of this world that allows Barristan and presumably others to surpass real-world limitations. The Selmy family's maester could have come up with a super-soldier potion. A friendly wizard might have given him an enchanted genital piercing, etc. It's fantasy

You pretending to have a privileged opinion because you train is laughable in this context, absurd even. I did mention that we had this discussion on the Underground, populated by hundreds of people who train and Barristan was easily the winner. My pro membership expired so I can't find the thread because it was too long ago, but it was there, one of Sagiv Lapkin's threads, maybe a NQOTD - I couldn't make sense of his NQOTD site but there's a couple of Barristan vs. threads there as well. The Tower of the Hand (another poorly-organized site) has some tournaments and whatnot, looked promising but looks llike it was never finished, though fight 20 has Barristan beating the Hound.

Your arrogance is unbelievabe - I should know because I am pretty fucking arrogant. Your opinion is worth more than hundreds of fans put together because you fucking train? Get a hold of yourself man!

I agree about the characterization, however

[worry]

I've beaten up old men recreationally on and off over the years, and I have to say, while most of them are pretty easy to take down (particularly by surprise), there's always an exception to the rule who will clean most anybody's clock, regardless of age. For all intents and purposes, Selmy is an exceptional man even among exceptional men. But so are Jaime, the Viper, and certainly there are some unknown quantities who've trained in Braavos or elsewhere. Like Malzan though, I'd say there's no clear hierarchy so much as strata of experience and qualification, and of course luck is a factor too. Selmy vs. Jaime is like Dassem vs. Brys to me...by reputation they could both hold their own, and a whole bunch of variables might as well be tossed in either way. Now you'll have to excuse me, as I've just realized I am involved in a "who would win in a fight" discussion and I have to go self-flagellate in penance.

[Morgoth]

Not that I would pretend that Judo makes you capable of real life fighting, I would like to point out that my Judo trainer was in his late fifties and beat the shit out of all of us, including the other black belts, on a regular basis. And judo is somewhat exhausting as well.

[MTS]

 amphibian, on 03 April 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

people who are old don't deal well with exhausting activities

http://www.dailymail...spotted-TV.html

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Paul_Reese

[Gothos]

Got just one point against, I wonder why they changed it for the Unsullied. In the books they had to strangle a puppy they were raising for several months to earn their shields... in the series it seems it's killing a newborn slave baby in front of the mother. Why?