[Silk]

Sooooo, finally got round to reforge through the darkness and as I'm going along little bits of things are jumpiong up at me demanding I acknowledge them and put them out there onto the interwebs....

Just got past the whole Caladan Brood and Rake meeting Blood vow and well something sticks in the mind here.....

1) Caladan Brood = Azathanai, one of if not the greatest of the Azathanai craftsman (as stated in book), Burn's Champion so to speak (though doesnt seem that way in this), aspected to Earth (in a nutshell) makes a blood vow with the Son of Darkness (not just any son of darkness but the Main Son).
Possible Impact of this vow ----- > Darkness and D'riss become bound. (after all it is pitch black underground)
Foreshadows ------> Black Coral in a way by anchoring Darkness to the actual world.

2) Burn ---- Caladan ..... in a way could be repeated by MOD and Draconus within th is book.
why do I say this? ----> Caladan gifts Burn (or shags OE to make Burn) with his aspect (not that its ever mentioned) therby anchoring the Azathanai to the world.
----> The Azathanai all represent an aspect, however there seems to be missing aspects from the Azathanai, we see no mention of who is aspected to light, shadow etc etc. Perhaps the gifting of the Azathani to the so called mortals of their choosing allows for the mortal to ascend to capture the aspect and by doing what Drac did it opens up the for others to ascend to the other unclaimed aspects. (The Old Man is only aspected to a mirror of light but not actual light).

3) In the beginning there were the elemental forces (Azathanai), then came wandering, holds, houses, paths..... The gifting of the aspects is the move from wandering to Holds as a number of the holds mentioned in the book become actual realm warrens somewhere along the line but need an anchoring to the real world. When Darkness is anchored at Black coral it moves from Hold to Warrens.

4) Given T'riss's comment in BaB about how Gods acan start the path but its always the mortals who decide, the book is a repeat of the standard Malazan trope about the new replacing the old in cases where the old cannot adapt to the new world. This book follows the move from Wandering to holds. (Yes I know that the gate to darkness was wandering but that was due to Drac putting it into the sword somewhere along the line which broke the Hold - probably when MD turned from the Tiste)

More to follwo as I go along.

[Silk]

Ok .... so the story moves along and we get to the Borderswords, Wardens and good old Tulas.....

At one point, the junior Ankhudu, makes a point of how Tulas is looking backwards at the war and is all but dead and goes on to describe him.

----> Perhaps death has already claimed him in aspect and is now just awaiting the actual arrival of Death as an aspected God......at this stage there does not seem to be any of the Azathanai who have this aspect, not surprising as they seem to be beyond death.... (though we know death does exist as wars have been fought amongst mortals, who are not really that mortal by the sounds of it when you compare what we know as mortal to the life spans of the elder beings.)

----> Mother Dark is described as being in a field of Icey Cold Darkness..... another hinted at alliance? After all it makes some sense that Ice, Earth, Seas and Darkness align as at their very depths all are encompassed in darkness.

----> Arathan and his journey with Sagander, and how Arathan muses about how he wishes to just blend into the background and esentially remove himself from the power games..... sounds very similar to a certain Captain that spent his time hiding from command until a fated charge.... not that thsi confirms or denies that it could be him.

More as I move further into the darkness......

[Nevyn]

I think you are really stretching your conclusions here. The vow between Brood and Rake is part of how they become allies down the road.

Burn already exists, and while Brood will have some relationship to her, it need not be analagous to the one Draconus has with MD Pretty sure her more prominent role will be mainly that the lands outside her influence become warrens thanks to K'rul and the Eleint.

I think your concept of anchoring is off, too. KG is an elder warren before black coral. The switch from holds to warrens seems to be more about K'rul and eleint than about anchoring.

The Tulas theory is just weird. Its not like tiste can't die (ask Andarists fiance) because there is no god of death. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Tulas doesn't care about life anymore. Death coming onto the stage is going to be hood and his army "going to war with death".

Same with the MD thing. SE may be sneaky and build to revelations slowly, but that doesn't make every adjective into foreshadowing or a codeword.

[Iamme]

Switch happens from hold to house and not from hold to warrens.

[Silk]

Nevyn, you miss the point i am actually making, there are aspects that don't seem to have an azathanai such as death, I never said they couldn't die just that they were not mortal as we know i.e they live for thousands of years.... not like humans in the later books.

There is yet an even older history to this world that has not been spoken about. Brood is an Azathanai no arguments ther fore one would assume that he is the aspect, Burn exists but she was a mortal dog runner at one point it says so.... so was MD ..... so not that far a jump to link the two as something similar.

Your Tulas point coroborates my poine he is dead already to t

KG was an Elder warren exactly, but it did not have a lesser being access point until the priest in ROTCG came out of the wood work, pretty much around the time black coral was anchored to this world from its previous realm status.

The link between Anaomander and Brood I was making at a higher level, anchoring the similarities, i.e its damn dark deep int earth, its also dark deep in the oceans etc.... basically alignments that form and stay up until the release of the CG.

[tiam]

Silk, on 27 March 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

The link between Anaomander and Brood I was making at a higher level, anchoring the similarities, i.e its damn dark deep int earth, its also dark deep in the oceans etc.... basically alignments that form and stay up until the release of the CG.

I cant make much sense of what else your saying because your doing a sort of 'must write down everything that comes to my mind' kind of thread while doing your read through which is fine aslong as you formalize your points afterwards so people can reply.

Ill just state that your logic about the Earth being dark and under the ocean being dark = alignments could only be considered if these were pure elements. Your view is slightly simplistic and would work in a good vs evil kind of way. What im saying is these are not elements, simply aspects of the personalities of beings. Thus Draconus (dark) and OE (fire/birth/whatever she decides in this book) have had three children together. These are alignments with personalities. For all we know Osserc (light) Rake (Dark) and Kily (destruction?) could ally against the dragons (chaos) but this is an alignment that is based on personality rather than some rock paper scissors alignment based on element.

[Silk]

at this point in time everything is simplistic as the elemental forces are only just awaking to the world we are now exploring, nothing has been formulated and as such each of the aspects will become its own realm but accessible for the main world.

At the end of the day if the gods didn't exist and there were no elemental forces of belief, the worlds would still exist, the sun would still rise and rain would fall from the sky and in the deep of night the moon will shine or not depending on its phase. All that now seems to be happening in the book is setting up for the awakening of the ability to utilise the elemntal forces power but they need an anchor to the realm and in the case of darkness this was gifted from an Azathani to a mortal tiste..... Why is it a far stretch to think that CB may have done this to burn who to me is a mahybe like SIlverfoxes mom.

Having just got to the part where Caladan Brood and Grizzin Farl hook up and CB stating that he has lost his freedom by enacting this vow , and GF basically making a point about it being with the First Son of Darkness no less, there is a lot more to it than just a vow between two people.

[Nevyn]

Silk, on 27 March 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Burn exists but she was a mortal dog runner at one point it says so.... so was MD ..... so not that far a jump to link the two as something similar.

MD was a mortal Tiste, not a mortal dog runner. And she became MD before Draconus was the consort (something to do with falling into chaos). Draconus makes it more literal after the fact thanks to his aspect, and has a gate made for her.

Could Brood "gift" burn with something similar? Possible, but not really necessary. Burn seems to be a long way along to becoming whatever she's going to be. You don't even really know for sure "Earth" is his aspect, that's just a conclusion based on his later relationship with burn. But since you are theorizing alliance everywhere, what if Brood is not aspected to earth, but his aspect becomes allied with it? Brood uses high denul in the MBotF, perhaps his aspect is healing, and craftsmanship is just a hobby? The only real link they show to Burn's aspect later is that she gives him a hammer that can wake her up. In terms of use of power, the main qualities Brood has shown are great strength (being able to wield the hammer) and healing (high denul).

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Your Tulas point coroborates my poine he is dead already to t

No it doesn't. Still no idea where you are getting this theory.

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KG was an Elder warren exactly, but it did not have a lesser being access point until the priest in ROTCG came out of the wood work, pretty much around the time black coral was anchored to this world from its previous realm status.

What's a lesser being access point? The tiste andii could use KG for sorcery before coral. They could not visit Kharkanas, but that is because the gate was within Dragnipur.

Humans accessed darkness too, through Rashan, a child warren to KG.

Again, your notion of things needing to be anchored really isn't supported anywhere in any of the books to this point.

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The link between Anaomander and Brood I was making at a higher level, anchoring the similarities, i.e its damn dark deep int earth, its also dark deep in the oceans etc.... basically alignments that form and stay up until the release of the CG.

Is anomander thus linked to anything that could in any way be said to be dark? Is he linked to old man's backside (the dark side of the moon?) Mael? (Its dark underwater) Spite, Malice and Envy (dark feelings)? Anomander and Broods relationship could tie in in any number of ways before the trilogy is up (especially since Brood seems like a retcon), but trying to "read deeper" into a series by saying "hey, those two things are dark, maybe its because of the vow" makes little sense.

If Brood had not made the vow, would it no longer be dark underground?

To me, the vow serves mainly to explain how an Azathenai like Brood ends up embroiled in mortal fights as a warlord in the later stories, conflicts that you'd think would be above him? Why do it? Because Rake is looking for a cause for his Tiste, and Brood is oath bound to Rake.

[Iamme]

Silk, on 28 March 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

at this point in time everything is simplistic as the elemental forces are only just awaking to the world we are now exploring, nothing has been formulated and as such each of the aspects will become its own realm but accessible for the main world.

At the end of the day if the gods didn't exist and there were no elemental forces of belief, the worlds would still exist, the sun would still rise and rain would fall from the sky and in the deep of night the moon will shine or not depending on its phase. All that now seems to be happening in the book is setting up for the awakening of the ability to utilise the elemntal forces power but they need an anchor to the realm and in the case of darkness this was gifted from an Azathani to a mortal tiste..... Why is it a far stretch to think that CB may have done this to burn who to me is a mahybe like SIlverfoxes mom.

Having just got to the part where Caladan Brood and Grizzin Farl hook up and CB stating that he has lost his freedom by enacting this vow , and GF basically making a point about it being with the First Son of Darkness no less, there is a lot more to it than just a vow between two people.

My 2 cents:

I am not sure what this anchoring theory is but Draconus didn't anchor anything. Azathenai can gift their power to mortal men/women without elevating them to godhood. K'rul is the reason for all the trouble. Tiste in FoD already have Denul thanks to K'rul. In truth, race base sorcery is purely a choice. Humans access all paths and yet Andii can only access darkness.

And as it seems after FoD, all kind of gates are up for grabbing. Burn perhaps grabbed one too.

[Silk]

right missing the point one and all...... forget it I wont ever make another post as its pretty obvious my views are totally above or below the level of thinking that is avilable.....


Cya and thanks for all the fish

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Silk, please don't exit. I get what yr doing and I'm enjoying the stream or consciousness. Just ignore the comments and continue to post your thoughts. To me, its new board content about the books and I like reading it. I even like everyone commenting, even if I don't care for the comments.

[worry]

Nah, go ahead and exit. What a baby.

[tiam]

Silk, on 29 March 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

right missing the point one and all...... forget it I wont ever make another post as its pretty obvious my views are totally above or below the level of thinking that is avilable.....


Cya and thanks for all the fish

Like I said continue posting, then after your done go back through and make it all properly readable. Just because people dont agree with you doesnt mean your wrong just get your points down in a proper legible way and we can discuss them.

Dont throw your toys out of the pram like a child just because people disagree with you. People, me included, are 'missing the point one and all' because your not taking alot of time writing these posts simply jotting down while your reading.

Also regarding the Brood being tied to Burn and possibly MD concept, im sure its mentioned in either SW or TTH that Burns Hammer (that was probably crafted by Brood actually) was used to make Dragnipur so that could be a link. Couldnt Draconus have been the original wielder of Burns Hammer yet after Anomander defeated him he simply returned the Hammer to Burn. We know Brood has only gotten the Hammer fairly recently in the main arc or atleast thats what were told.

[Iamme]

Iamme, on 30 March 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

Silk, on 27 March 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Nevyn, you miss the point i am actually making, there are aspects that don't seem to have an azathanai such as death, I never said they couldn't die just that they were not mortal as we know i.e they live for thousands of years.... not like humans in the later books.

How do we know that? What if there is one? We don't know anything about these "beings".

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There is yet an even older history to this world that has not been spoken about. Brood is an Azathanai no arguments ther fore one would assume that he is the aspect, Burn exists but she was a mortal dog runner at one point it says so.... so was MD ..... so not that far a jump to link the two as something similar.

???

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Your Tulas point coroborates my poine he is dead already to t

He is a zombie? Perhaps you are thinking too much?

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KG was an Elder warren exactly, but it did not have a lesser being access point until the priest in ROTCG came out of the wood work, pretty much around the time black coral was anchored to this world from its previous realm status.

Anchored?" Lesser beings" still cannot access KG. They use Rashan.

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The link between Anaomander and Brood I was making at a higher level, anchoring the similarities, i.e its damn dark deep int earth, its also dark deep in the oceans etc.... basically alignments that form and stay up until the release of the CG.

Fire is oxidation(air). Air contains water-vapor. Water-vapor leads to ice. Great.

This post has been edited by Iamme: 30 March 2013 - 05:41 AM