[amphibian]

He's doing this because I call RSUS a not completely terrible book. It isn't, but has some big flaws.

I think what I liked most about this book is that Locke and Jean weren't nearly as calculated and clever. Everything they've ever relied on has basically been ripped away from them, the cities they prepared and reconfigured have mutated or booted them out and all of their backups and identities are gone.

That means that with the lack of exquisite finesse and umpteen plot layers, we get the improvisation and rawness of the characters themselves - with a few plot layers still, of course.

[QuickTidal]

Man, I'm only 100 pages in so far, but Pat is on crack if he didn't like this book.

This is as fine a return to form as Lynch could have managed. I'm absolutely loving it. Here's hoping the rest of it is like this. Wow!

[Obdigore]

QuickTidal, on 22 October 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Man, I'm only 100 pages in so far, but Pat is on crack if he didn't like this book.

This is as fine a return to form as Lynch could have managed. I'm absolutely loving it. Here's hoping the rest of it is like this. Wow!

If you like good books, your opinion will change with the ending. As I noted earlier, I enjoyed it right up to the meh-tastic ending it gave me.

[QuickTidal]

Obdigore, on 25 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 22 October 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Man, I'm only 100 pages in so far, but Pat is on crack if he didn't like this book.

This is as fine a return to form as Lynch could have managed. I'm absolutely loving it. Here's hoping the rest of it is like this. Wow!

If you like good books, your opinion will change with the ending. As I noted earlier, I enjoyed it right up to the meh-tastic ending it gave me.

We will see...as of now (I'm around pg250) it's still balls to the wall fantastic.

[End of Disc One]

I've read good things about the ending elsewhere.

I'm only halfway through and it's good, though it sure took a while for the present storyline to go past what we knew from the blurb. RSURS was better at the halfway point until it got bogged down by pirates. Still, I'm enjoying this.

[QuickTidal]

Spoiler

I was not expecting the title to reference an in-story play...that was a nice little surprise. Oh, and the SkyChamber conversation between the Bondsmagi council was fucked! (in a good way)...though anyone else get Harry Potter Pensieve vibes from Dreamsteel memory thingie?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 25 October 2013 - 02:07 PM

[Malaclypse]

D/loading now. Will report - I hope it's as good as you lot seem to think it is

[Eddie Dean]

QuickTidal, on 25 October 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Spoiler

I was not expecting the title to reference an in-story play...that was a nice little surprise. Oh, and the SkyChamber conversation between the Bondsmagi council was fucked! (in a good way)...though anyone else get Harry Potter Pensieve vibes from Dreamsteel memory thingie?

Yes, that is exactly what I thought of.

[QuickTidal]

Page 300 now...and...

Spoiler

HOLY. FUCKBALLS. Sabetha's dealing with the two of them, Locke with the poisoned perfume, and Jean with the "Remember how she joked that there might be twenty armed guys in the next room? There were twenty armed guys in the next room."...and the two of them being sent away on a prison ship? Fuck me, well played Sabetha. Well fucking played. Honestly, I was as suckered in as Locke was hook, line, and sinker about the "kiss" she asks for, and didn't relaize till it was much too late. As far as I'm concerned that chapter is a stroke of goddamned genius on Lynch's part...he spends 90% of it disarming both Locke and the Reader with reminiscing / catching up, and Sabetha's expression of real concern...and then WHAM, he fucks you over in the final 10%. Wow. If nothing else, this chapter makes me marvel at the author's prose and skill at turning a moment.

EDIT: Speculation!

Spoiler

Patience = Locke's mother. That's my guess. They have that talk on the way to Karthain about Grey Names and how Bondsmagi pick one to be known as...and prior to being on the council Patience was called merely Seamstress. Locke's only recollection of his mother is a needle and thread. So yeah, I'm calling that now. Patience is his mother...making Falconer his half-brother (maybe full brother?)...but is the father as mundane a guy as she mentioned when talking of Falconer's father?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 October 2013 - 03:36 PM

[amphibian]

Read onwards, young QuickTidal and the others.

(I think you're actually a couple years older than me, but I have the benefit of a smaller TRP and faster reading speed, so I am "elder" in terms of reading TRoT)

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 28 October 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Read onwards, young QuickTidal and the others.

(I think you're actually a couple years older than me, but I have the benefit of a smaller TRP and faster reading speed, so I am "elder" in terms of reading TRoT)

Heh. Fair enough.

[Cause]

Im halfway through and also loving it so far. The highlights for me are the flashbacks.

As for Locke and Sabetha

Spoiler

I like the idea of how she admires and respects Locke for his skill and leadership but at the same time resents him for it. 'I could have loved you as a partner but not as my Garrista' she says to paraphrase. At the same time it also strikes me as a bit immature and absurd. I myself am very conscious of the power dynamics of my relationships, but I tend to view it as a weakness rather then a strength. I also dislike the minor hints of a subtle battle of the sexes current. Sabetha calls out Locke for having no new female apprenticies and such. I always hate that theme, drives me mad.

All in all I am enjoying the parts of the relationship I have seen so far though. I just hope we get more insight into how and why the relationship ended and that it ended for a better reason that Sabetha wants to be in charge and Locke was too proud to go after her. Since if that is the case this is not the relationship of legend that we were led to believe.

As for the five year game

Spoiler

I enjoyed the scene of Locke, Jean and Sabetha meeting up in the black Iris but that said it is also lazy. I can see how locke and Jean could have been tricked by her, taken in by their past relationship and disarmed. For the two of them the loss of the Sanzas and Bug is more real and so meeting up with an old gang member means more. I can understand all that. What I cant forgive is that Locke and Jean get invited into the center of their enemies power and go willingly as if they were going to a neighbor for tea. They were told explicitly that while they cant be murdered they can be kidnapped and imprisoned or drugged into a coma for six weeks etc. Thats the lazy part! I mean twenty armed thugs is not even subtle but when you are in the middle of the enemies lair its not even hard for them to hide them. The drug on her neck to take out locke was fine, could have been handled the same way in a nuetral inn or something

Minor world building annoyances.

Money: Gold coins, crowns or Ducats or white Iron whatever by turns are worth a good meal at a good inn or are the yearly income of a servant or are enough to hire a company of well to do mercenaries. I realize their is supposed to be a gap between the rich and the poor but its becoming absurd and I think Lynch is going back and forth on just how much a gold coin is worth and its starting to grate that I cant nail it down. Meragio's ancestor was famous for throwing ten iron coins into the bay every day? week? and yet we are to understand that white iron, the most valuable coin of all, would be worth a house each?

Education: We still have no idea what alchemy really is, it sure as hell aint chemistry as we know it. We sure as hell cant splice magic trees that produce alcoholic orange-lemon hybrid fruit. Id really like an explanation at some point. Still it strikes me as odd that the most well educated physiker in Lashain can by turns understand advance concepts like medicine and alchemy and the next second suggest that swallowing gems cures poison or that one should only cut their nails on a penance day or risk thinning the blood.

Bondsmagi: Never really occurred to me before this book but the Grey king essentially hired a a Bondsmagi for x per day and used him to steal Lockes fortune of Y. Seems odd to me that you should be able to hire a bondsmangi to steal his own fee.

Spoiler

of course we have learnt they are not really in it for the money but its still odd.

This post has been edited by Cause: 29 October 2013 - 09:15 AM

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 29 October 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Im halfway through and also loving it so far. The highlights for me are the flashbacks.

As for Locke and Sabetha

Spoiler

I like the idea of how she admires and respects Locke for his skill and leadership but at the same time resents him for it. 'I could have loved you as a partner but not as my Garrista' she says to paraphrase. At the same time it also strikes me as a bit immature and absurd. I myself am very conscious of the power dynamics of my relationships, but I tend to view it as a weakness rather then a strength. I also dislike the minor hints of a subtle battle of the sexes current. Sabetha calls out Locke for having no new female apprenticies and such. I always hate that theme, drives me mad.

All in all I am enjoying the parts of the relationship I have seen so far though. I just hope we get more insight into how and why the relationship ended and that it ended for a better reason that Sabetha wants to be in charge and Locke was too proud to go after her. Since if that is the case this is not the relationship of legend that we were led to believe.

Agree on all fronts.

Cause, on 29 October 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

As for the five year game

Spoiler

I enjoyed the scene of Locke, Jean and Sabetha meeting up in the black Iris but that said it is also lazy. I can see how locke and Jean could have been tricked by her, taken in by their past relationship and disarmed. For the two of them the loss of the Sanzas and Bug is more real and so meeting up with an old gang member means more. I can understand all that. What I cant forgive is that Locke and Jean get invited into the center of their enemies power and go willingly as if they were going to a neighbor for tea. They were told explicitly that while they cant be murdered they can be kidnapped and imprisoned or drugged into a coma for six weeks etc. Thats the lazy part! I mean twenty armed thugs is not even subtle but when you are in the middle of the enemies lair its not even hard for them to hide them. The drug on her neck to take out locke was fine, could have been handled the same way in a nuetral inn or something

Spoiler

I think that both Locke and Jean are unseated because they really don't consider Sabetha a threat on the level she is. Sure they are smart and normally either avoid traps or (sometimes) walk willingly into them knowing that it's likely a trap. I think here you've got two dynamics playing. 1. Locke would probably have walked into a room visibly full of armed men to see her again, and 2. The importance Jean put on all his gang relationships in the past, means that in present day he's willing to risk to see her again as well (as is evidenced by their genuine hug). So I think all in all Locke and Jean KNEW they were walking into something hairy with her...but remember these are two guys who truly believe they can get out of literally anything. And they actually do.

Cause, on 29 October 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Minor world building annoyances.

Money: Gold coins, crowns or Ducats or white Iron whatever by turns are worth a good meal at a good inn or are the yearly income of a servant or are enough to hire a company of well to do mercenaries. I realize their is supposed to be a gap between the rich and the poor but its becoming absurd and I think Lynch is going back and forth on just how much a gold coin is worth and its starting to grate that I cant nail it down. Meragio's ancestor was famous for throwing ten iron coins into the bay every day? week? and yet we are to understand that white iron, the most valuable coin of all, would be worth a house each?

I think White Iron is different from iron...and I can't recall which Merragio's ancestor threw in the bay...but even if it was white iron, my guess would be that someone who owns the richest bank/counting house in Camorr could afford to piss away large sums. As to the rest, I think the denominations and their worth change between places as well. But i am foggy on all this as well.

[amphibian]

The location of spending matters as much as the type of money itself.

Where does it say that the physicians understand alchemy or truly understand medicine? I don't think that's ever said and for Locke, that's an actual plot point that the doctors don't know it all.

As for the Bondsmagi, they took into consideration what the Barsavi contract wanted from them, had a huge network of informers and magical seeing and collectively voted on it being okay to collect fees in that manner. Nobody could stop a bondsmagi in Camorra, right? It'd be like taking money from a bank deposit after a bit of mess cleaning. Easy peasy.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 29 October 2013 - 03:59 PM

[Malaclypse]

Started this now and it's not terrible so far but not exactly thrilling either - I'm not really interested in Locke's youth.

[Cause]

amphibian, on 29 October 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

As for the Bondsmagi, they took into consideration what Barsavi wanted, had a huge network of informers and magical seeing and collectively voted on it being okay to collect fees in that manner. Nobody could stop a bondsmagi in Camorra, right? It'd be like taking money from a bank deposit after a bit of mess cleaning. Easy peasy.

Thats my point though. The bondsmagi are essentially omnipotent. The odd part though is hiring one for 500 Gold coins a day to help you steal 40 000 gold coins in an hour. Then using said money to pay the Bondsmagi's contract. The equivalent of me paying a professional thief a thousand dollars to rob a bank to a tune of a million dollars but I get to keep the loot. If the Bondsmagi are fine with this business arrangement I don't know why more people dont take advantage. It strikes me that anyone with any wealth to speak of would need to be paying them protection money to avoid this sort of thing.

[Salt-Man Z]

I bought this for my wife as a Christmas present, which means I might get read to it sometime next year. I was not expecting the hardcover to be so huge!

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 29 October 2013 - 02:48 PM

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 29 October 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

amphibian, on 29 October 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

As for the Bondsmagi, they took into consideration what Barsavi wanted, had a huge network of informers and magical seeing and collectively voted on it being okay to collect fees in that manner. Nobody could stop a bondsmagi in Camorra, right? It'd be like taking money from a bank deposit after a bit of mess cleaning. Easy peasy.

Thats my point though. The bondsmagi are essentially omnipotent. The odd part though is hiring one for 500 Gold coins a day to help you steal 40 000 gold coins in an hour. Then using said money to pay the Bondsmagi's contract. The equivalent of me paying a professional thief a thousand dollars to rob a bank to a tune of a million dollars but I get to keep the loot. If the Bondsmagi are fine with this business arrangement I don't know why more people dont take advantage. It strikes me that anyone with any wealth to speak of would need to be paying them protection money to avoid this sort of thing.

I THINK (I'd be willing to be corrected if wrong) the dude who took the contract for the Bondsmagi to take out the Barsavi dynasty (it's a Dynasty even if it's a crime syndicate right? LOL) didn't do it for the monetary gain...it was done to upheave the rest of the nobles, remove Barsavi-enforced Secret Peace and make the city ripe for the plucking again without a ruling factor, criminal or otherwise...even the Duke would have problems.

That's if I understood the conversation in the SkyChamber where the petition for the Camorr job was tabled.

[QuickTidal]

Malaclypse, on 29 October 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Started this now and it's not terrible so far but not exactly thrilling either - I'm not really interested in Locke's youth.

That may temper your read of it then. As the entire book switches between the two-time periods on a chapter by chapter basis. Thus you are going to get a large portion of Locke's Youth whether you wish it or not. That said, enough of Locke's past coincides with his present to make the interludes have a purpose...but even I get tired of Sabetha's constant fences where Locke is concerned. Every conversation he begins with her he has to dance a dance to get to actually converse with her on a real level...and the third time it happens it get irritating. That said, things pick up significantly once you reach the middle portion of Locke's youth interludes. IMHO anyways, YMMV.

[amphibian]

Cause, on 29 October 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Thats my point though. The bondsmagi are essentially omnipotent. The odd part though is hiring one for 500 Gold coins a day to help you steal 40 000 gold coins in an hour. Then using said money to pay the Bondsmagi's contract. The equivalent of me paying a professional thief a thousand dollars to rob a bank to a tune of a million dollars but I get to keep the loot. If the Bondsmagi are fine with this business arrangement I don't know why more people dont take advantage. It strikes me that anyone with any wealth to speak of would need to be paying them protection money to avoid this sort of thing.

If the Grey King defaulted on his contract, he'd have paid in other coin - information, becoming their employee or perhaps with his life and those of his sisters. The Bondsmagi didn't take the contract merely for the money - although that sweetened the deal.

I'd assume the wealthy are taking a variety of precautions regarding the Bondsmagi - paying them, avoiding their notice, secretly training mage-killers (only theoretically effective as of yet), running away etc.